Magdelin Laundry

[Despanan]

I just saw a play about this last night.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_asylum

So, apparently, up until friggin' 1996 the Catholic Church in Ireland was keeping "fallen" women against their will, in virtual slavery, taking their children away from them to raise in their orphanages, and using them for free labor in their for-profit laundry business. They beat them, they tortured them, they robbed them of all their possessions and gave them new names.

News article on them from 2009:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-3445_162-567365.html

Someone once said the only thing really new in the world is the history we don't know. The Irish people are learning that right now and it's a painful experience.

It began five years ago when an order of nuns in Dublin sold off part of its convent to real estate developers. On that property were the remains of 133 women buried in unmarked graves, and buried with them was a scandal.

As it turns out, the women had been virtual prisoners, confined by the Catholic Church behind convent walls for perceived sins of the flesh, and sentenced to a life of servitude in something called the Magdalene laundries.

It sounds medieval, something that happened hundreds of years ago, but, in fact, the last Magdalene laundry closed just over two years ago. And as the story was firstly reported in 1999, revelations have shocked the Irish people, embarrassed the Catholic Church and tarnished the country's image.

From the front, the former Good Shepherd Convent in Cork looks like an exclusive private school, with a hidden history too heavy to tell. At the back of the convent, you can still see the skeleton of the washhouse, one of dozens of Magdalene institutions scattered across the countryside.

It was there that Mary Norris and Josephine McCarthy each spent three years of hard labor, enforced silence and prayer, after it was decided that they were in moral danger and unfit to live in Irish society.

Both had come from troubled homes, spent time in Catholic orphanages, and were sent out as servant girls, where they ran into trouble with their employers for staying out late. They were turned over to the nuns because it was suspected they either were, or were about to become, sexually active. Josephine says she was accused of having sex in the backseat of a car.

"And then the next thing I knew, I was with this woman on a train to Cork. And I was just brought up here. I was just told my name was Phyllis, and I'd work in the laundry," said McCarthy, walking down the laundry during her revisit to the convent.

They were given new names by the nuns to help them break from their pasts. No one knows how many women were sent off to the laundries. The religious orders refuse to make those records available, but estimates range into the tens of thousands.

The church was the only authority under which they were held, as Norris explained. "I would have rather been down in the women's jail. At least I would have got a sentence and I would know when I was leaving," she said.

"It's made me feel a horrible, dirty person all my life," McCarthy added, when the two of them walked past the convent.

They were both teenagers when they came here, Norris in the 1950s and McCarthy in the 1960s. Their only crime was appearing to violate the moral code dictated by the church. At that time, it was the church and not the state that was the most powerful force in Ireland. There was no due process and no appeal.

According to McCarthy, the women got up about 5 in the morning, went to Mass, had breakfast, started work and then went to bed about 7 at night.

"That was it. That was our life. And we dare not ask questions," she said. "And (the work is) very hard. You'd have to hand-wash – scrub. You'd have no knuckles left. Ironing – you would be burnt. It was just hard work."

The choice of work was no accident. They were called "Magdalenes", or "penitents". By scrubbing, they were supposed to wash away their sins along with the stains on the laundry of the orphanages, churches, prisons and even the local butcher shop.

The income from their labor put a roof over their heads, food on their plates, and financed any other ventures the nuns might be involved in.

Besides washing all day, every "Magdalene" needed to pray out loud for her sins...

Here's the website of a group which is trying to get justice for the women, as of now neither the Catholic Church nor the Irish government has so much as apologized for keeping these women in SLAVERY.

The church won't even release the records of who was in the various Laundries or who died there.

Apparently there was a movie about it in 2002:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0318411/

So yeah...that happened

[Acharis]

That's... abduction and unlawful imprisonment.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Acharis

That's... abduction and unlawful imprisonment.

But they're people of faith, who only want to help the community! I'm sure without them all those dirty sluts/potential sluts would be out having consensual sex all whilly-nilly instead of doing hard labor for the enrichment of the church!

[Versus]

Slavery huh.

[Despanan]

What else would you call being forced to work for no pay, against your will, under threat of violence for an indefinite amount of time?

[Versus]

You know, Saya and I took bets about what you would say. She said that you would tell me that I do not have a monopoly on slavery, possibly expanding that Jews were slaves, too. I thought you might ask me how it is not slavery, or try to redefine what it is.

Looks like I won.

[Despanan]

So, what would you call it?

[Versus]

You're a smart guy. You can figure out what's wrong.

[Despanan]

No doubt I could make an educated guess.

But that still doesn't answer my question. So now I ask you for a third time, what would you call it?

[Alan]

It is slavery.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Alan

It is slavery.

Sure. And so is this

http://mindprod.com/animalrights/animalslaves.html

and this

http://www.mises.org/daily/410

and this

http://www.davidkopel.com/NRO/2001/N...ed-Slavery.htm.

And Despanan, do you remember on Facebook when that asshat talked about how it wasn't acceptable to berate homophobic people publically, and asked you not to use swear words because they triggered him?

And then you said something like "uh, usually the word "triggering is reserved for **** or sexual assault victims."

It's kind of like that.

[Alan]

Sure, and this is not

[Versus]

I didn't say it wasn't, Alan.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Versus

Despanan, do you remember on Facebook when that asshat talked about how it wasn't acceptable to berate homophobic people publically, and asked you not to use swear words because they triggered him?

And then you said something like "uh, usually the word "triggering is reserved for **** or sexual assault victims."

It's kind of like that.

No it's not.

[Miss Absynthe]

Originally Posted by Versus

Looks like I won.

What'd you win?

[Saya]

The problem with the term slavery is that Ireland has a legacy of indentured servitude (the Magdalene asylums are also linked to industrial schools, psychiatric asylums, single mother homes and more that all exploited labour from those they were supposed to care for) that extended to their immigrants to America, in which while treated pretty badly they were given hierarchy over slaves and eventually freed, whereas slaves were born slaves, died slaves and their children were slaves. They weren't considered people at all much less people who could be redeemed through hard labour.

Its also interesting to note how this is now considered unacceptable, but when Irish critics point out that they still lock up aslyum seekers for daring to apply for refugee status, where they're paid very little weekly and become very sick, sometimes die, its not comparable to what was done to white women. They're just freeloaders who should be thankful.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by Versus

I didn't say it wasn't, Alan.

And I didn't say taxes were.
Funny how it works when people call on bullshit double standards, huh?

[Versus]

No, that wasn't my point. It's that Despanan is so comfortable using the term and making direct comparisons. He fucking knows the problem and doesn't want to be wrong.

[Alan]

Well now he has the street cred of a mexican in this issue, and that happened before you gave me your half-baked examples, so you should have added that to the socioeconomic dick measurement.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Saya

The problem with the term slavery is that Ireland has a legacy of indentured servitude (the Magdalene asylums are also linked to industrial schools, psychiatric asylums, single mother homes and more that all exploited labour from those they were supposed to care for) that extended to their immigrants to America, in which while treated pretty badly they were given hierarchy over slaves and eventually freed, whereas slaves were born slaves, died slaves and their children were slaves. They weren't considered people at all much less people who could be redeemed through hard labour.

Its also interesting to note how this is now considered unacceptable, but when Irish critics point out that they still lock up aslyum seekers for daring to apply for refugee status, where they're paid very little weekly and become very sick, sometimes die, its not comparable to what was done to white women. They're just freeloaders who should be thankful.

1) The slave societies of Ancient Greece and Rome were not hereditary, and were largely based on conquest.

2) The Madeline wash-women could not work their way out of slavery, the best thing they could hope to would be to become a nun, and even then they would never be freed and continue to labor for the enrichment of the church and the laundry.

3) Often times if their children were girls they WOULD be sent to work in the laundry, because of indoctrination by the nuns in the orphanages.

4) Would you be against the label "sex-slavery" for 3rd world women forced into indefinite prostitution in the 1st world?

[Saya]

[quote=Despanan;701810]1) The slave societies of Ancient Greece and Rome were not hereditary, and were largely based on conquest.[quote]

I win, Versus!

I think the legacy of slavery in Ancient Greece is pretty well gone. You and I are not reaping the benefits of Greek slavery and pederasty.

2) The Madeline wash-women could not work their way out of slavery, the best thing they could hope to would be to become a nun, and even then they would never be freed and continue to labor for the enrichment of the church and the laundry.

Many Magdalene sisters did leave, you know, their families would put them in there and they could take them out, or they could theoretically become of age and leave, although many didn't due to mental disability or being unable to survive outside the system.

3) Often times if their children were girls they WOULD be sent to work in the laundry, because of indoctrination by the nuns in the orphanages.

Actually a large amount were adopted out, it wasn't necessarily hereditary.

4) Would you be against the label "sex-slavery" for 3rd world women forced into indefinite prostitution in the 1st world?

As a white person that isn't my decision to make. I'm skeptical of my own outrage when I learned about this years ago and critical of my delayed outrage at indentured servitude in the US that continues in the prison system. I'm very quick to feel outraged for other white women and yet slow to recognize the oppression of PoC, and until I can get over that I'm not able to use terms that in our society are extremely racialized.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Alan

Well now he has the street cred of a mexican in this issue, and that happened before you gave me your half-baked examples, so you should have added that to the socioeconomic dick measurement.

I'm just hoping he won't use your street cred as justification. "But Alan is Mexican and HE said it was okay!"

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Saya

I think the legacy of slavery in Ancient Greece is pretty well gone. You and I are not reaping the benefits of Greek slavery and pederasty.

So it's okay to use the term "slave" if there's been significant time? What's the expiration date? If I wait a few more years can I call what the Church did to those women slavery? Can someone in Russia call what was done to those women Slavery? How about China?

That question is rhetorical btw. Your argument is an ad-hominem and you should feel bad about yourself for making it.

Many Magdalene sisters did leave, you know, their families would put them in there and they could take them out, or they could theoretically become of age and leave, although many didn't due to mental disability or being unable to survive outside the system.

Yes, or much more often, they died there and were buried in secret without even their real name.

Actually a large amount were adopted out, it wasn't necessarily hereditary.

So the ones that weren't adopted out, were they hereditary slaves?

As a white person that isn't my decision to make. I'm skeptical of my own outrage when I learned about this years ago and critical of my delayed outrage at indentured servitude in the US that continues in the prison system. I'm very quick to feel outraged for other white women and yet slow to recognize the oppression of PoC, and until I can get over that I'm not able to use terms that in our society are extremely racialized.

Jesus Christ Saya, that is a complete cop-out. One can make an objective judgement about whether or not someone's treatment meets a set of criteria. If they refuse to acknowledge other people who meet that criteria it doesn't mean their first judgement was wrong, it just means they are inconsistent/hypocritical.

As to what goes on in the prison industrial complex, your initial lack of outrage doesn't invalidate your initial outrage: we as a society are conditioned to believe that folks in prison deserve to be there. Many people are not aware of the facts. You, like many others were suffering from a lack of information. It's silly to be skeptical about selective outrage as stress is subjective and there's really only so much rage to go around. We have evolved to tune out the stuff which effects us on a less personal level.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Despanan

So it's okay to use the term "slave" if there's been significant time? What's the expiration date? If I wait a few more years can I call what the Church did to those women slavery? Can someone in Russia call what was done to those women Slavery? How about China?

That question is rhetorical btw. Your argument is an ad-hominem and you should feel bad about yourself for making it.

So, pointing out we have privilege and are still reaping the benefits of black slavery and therefore shouldn't be quick to cry out racialized terms when white people who don't affect you in any regard are oppressed?

Yes, or much more often, they died there and were buried in secret without even their real name.

You just learned about this last night, dude. There were 133 unmarked graves discovered, not 30,000, which is roughly the number of women who were in Magdalene asylums in the last 150 years.

So the ones that weren't adopted out, were they hereditary slaves?

You mean were they classified under flora and fauna, considered animals, considered property, considered subhuman? Not really. They were poor and destitute and this is like Randian charity.

Jesus Christ Saya, that is a complete cop-out. One can make an objective judgement about whether or not someone's treatment meets a set of criteria. If they refuse to acknowledge other people who meet that criteria it doesn't mean their first judgement was wrong, it just means they are inconsistent/hypocritical.

There is no objectivity here. We're white people with an interest in maintaining white supremacy and only caring about white people. The only thing that makes that appear "objective" is because it comes natural to us and we don't see it as a bias.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Despanan

As to what goes on in the prison industrial complex, your initial lack of outrage doesn't invalidate your initial outrage: we as a society are conditioned to believe that folks in prison deserve to be there. Many people are not aware of the facts. You, like many others were suffering from a lack of information. It's silly to be skeptical about selective outrage as stress is subjective and there's really only so much rage to go around. We have evolved to tune out the stuff which effects us on a less personal level.

The girls were blamed for being there too, they were seen as deserving. It was punishment and an attempt at rehabilitation, just like the exploitation of prisoners is considered deserved and rehabilitating. The difference is is that one group is white and the other is mainly PoC.