Five hundred eighty proofs of God's Existence

[Slap Your Love]

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

such a God would be nothing more than a cruel tyrant who expects what no rational person could possibly deliver, and, if an entity of that kind wants to torture innocent people, nothing can stop him.

He is GOD after all. He can do what the fuck he wants. He does have wrath if he exists obviously. Look at the tons of epidemics and human suffering. Why? In the simplest terms, God wants to. Get over it.

Also, why would God offer proof of his existence if he wants people
to believe rather than look at the evidence? That's completely against
the original intent. That's too easy.

[isobel black]

So you're basically acknowledging that god is a petty tyrant should he exist, as well as implicitely stating that fear is your main motivation for believing in him.

[Methadrine]

Originally Posted by Slap Your Love

He is GOD after all. He can do what the fuck he wants. He does have wrath if he exists obviously. Look at the tons of epidemics and human suffering. Why? In the simplest terms, God wants to. Get over it.

Also, why would God offer proof of his existence if he wants people
to believe rather than look at the evidence? That's completely against
the original intent. That's too easy.

The saddest thing about that post is that even if we did show precisely why there are tons of epidemics, show the various sanitary conditions that usually lead to massive epidemics, or show the various viruses and diseases that causes them and even how they are built up from ground up, and explain all the causes for human sufferings, for example wars and famine and the geopolitical situations that prevent us from diminishing them, he still would use "god wants to" as a rebuttal.

And that's fucking sad.

So following that illogical train of thought I have something to announce: God told me to tell you all that he doesn't exist. Get over it.

[Slap Your Love]

Originally Posted by isobel black

as well as implicitely stating that fear is your main motivation for believing in him.

Definitely did not say that and definitely not true. Nice try.

Originally Posted by Methadrine

The saddest thing about that post is that even if we did show precisely why there are tons of epidemics, show the various sanitary conditions that usually lead to massive epidemics, or show the various viruses and diseases that causes them and even how they are built up from ground up, and explain all the causes for human sufferings, for example wars and famine and the geopolitical situations that prevent us from diminishing them, he still would use "god wants to" as a rebuttal.

And that's fucking sad.

So following that illogical train of thought I have something to announce: God told me to tell you all that he doesn't exist. Get over it.

Shit happens.

[isobel black]

Originally Posted by isobel black

as well as implicitely stating that fear is your main motivation for believing in him.

It's definitely implied in your posts. Are you deluded about that as well or did you just not understand what I said?

[Slap Your Love]

Originally Posted by isobel black

It's definitely implied in your posts. Are you deluded about that as well or did you just not understand what I said?

Obviously you didn't read my spiritual connection and feeling post kiddo.

[Beneath the Shadows]

Originally Posted by Slap Your Love

He is GOD after all. He can do what the fuck he wants. He does have wrath if he exists obviously. Look at the tons of epidemics and human suffering. Why? In the simplest terms, God wants to. Get over it.

Also, why would God offer proof of his existence if he wants people
to believe rather than look at the evidence? That's completely against
the original intent. That's too easy.

So, what you're saying is that your god is a cunt.

[Slap Your Love]

Originally Posted by Beneath the Shadows

So, what you're saying is that your god is a cunt.

To those who are against him or for a greater purpose.

[Beneath the Shadows]

Somehow, I doubt that the aforementioned plagues are human suffering are against only those who are against him. Your god can suck my dick and smile while he swallows.

[Slap Your Love]

Originally Posted by Beneath the Shadows

Somehow, I doubt that the aforementioned plagues are human suffering are against only those who are against him. Your god can suck my dick and smile while he swallows.

That's why I said or for a higher purpose. Ha. Good deal.

[HumanePain]

Well, after watching from the sidelines I must say that at this point this thread has gone from attempting to apply logic and scientific treatment to a spiritual question (which is really the first mistake) to what ultimately decides faith or not: individual choice. SYL has in the end said he believes in God (so do I incidentally, for those unfamiliar with my position on God) and so no amount of logic or debate will convince him. It ultimately comes down to each person's conclusions.

Yes, many people actually subscribe to some of the "arguments" listed in the OP, and yes they are not logical. Spiritual belief is not logical and there discussion should stop before it enters the Klein Bottle of neither here nor there. It's all in the mind.

Now, if we are trying to argue creationism vs. evolution, NOW we have something concrete and external to the mind we can debate! Evidence abounds to support that argument in a scientific fashion.

But to argue logically about some spiritual concept in another or in one's own mind? Good luck.

But it was fun watching where this thread would go. And it also reveals personalities. I learned a lot more about SYL that I didn't know before.

[Slap Your Love]

Originally Posted by HumanePain

Now, if we are trying to argue creationism vs. evolution, NOW we have something concrete and external to the mind we can debate! Evidence abounds to support that argument in a scientific fashion.

In that sense, "I believe in the theory of evolution, but I believe as well in the allegorical truth of creation theory. In other words, I believe that evolution, including the principle of natural selection, is one of the tools used by God to create mankind" as stated by Christopher Langan. That's exactly what I believe and the same applies for my belief in cosmic inflation.

Originally Posted by HumanePain

But it was fun watching where this thread would go. And it also reveals personalities. I learned a lot more about SYL that I didn't know before.

You'll have to ignore the immature short asshole like statements
I used against the asshole like claims from some against me or my God.

[Drake Dun]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

If God -does- turn out to be real in one way or another, I wonder what folks like you will do, Jillian.

I don't, but if I did, I would also wonder what you folks will do. There's no reason to suppose that any god that did exist would want to reward belief and punish disbelief. After all, the gods have done a really excellent job of hiding themselves. I swear, it's almost like they don't exist at all. Maybe They just want to be left alone, and will visit Their terrible wrath upon all of you people who bother the shit out of them with your supplications. It probably makes a god especially mad when someone goes around putting words into His mouth, telling people who His immediate family members are, what His favorite day of the week is, and what He thinks about your sex life and dietary habits.

And I just made all that up. See how easy it was? Atheists are often accused of being unimaginative, but we're not necessarily. It's just that we know the difference between imagination and understanding. If we want to, we too can conjure random bullshit out of thin air and, if we also lack ethics, use it to terrify people and cover up our own failings. We do have Karl Rove on our team. Well... maybe. We're still trying to get him to clarify that. That's the problem with dishonesty, see.

Really, though. Think about it. Your god is supposed to be this omniscient, omnipotent, and oh yeah, omnibenevolent person (in spite of the bum rap he gets in your inerrant holy text). You think a character like that is going to get buttsore because someone didn't believe in him? Or taking things to SLY's extreme, he's going to get buttsore that someone didn't believe in him, after he specifically went out of the way to hide himself?

I can't see why he would care in the first place, but anyway after he reveals himself to you, in the lobby at the Outside Space and Time Hotel, you're obviously going to believe in him then. But then it's too late? Now he's more interested in taking it out of your hide? Why? None of it makes any sense. It doesn't even pass the smell test.

If, on the other hand, you understand the doctrine for what it is - an emotional bullying tactic, everything snaps into perfect focus. It's not God who's insecure. It's the believer, who doesn't have evidence, sense, or anything like that to stand on, but who knows that fear is a pretty good substitute when you need to shore things up a bit. If he's one of the more insidious types, he is well aware that terrorizing people is a great way to shut down their thinking faculties so he can fill their head with any mumbo-jumbo he likes. And if we're talking about a particularly nasty toad, he also derives satisfaction from the idea of all those people who failed to reinforce his precious delusion being tortured forever. How dare they buck the poisonous system he's too weak to get outside himself? A little time in the lake of fire will teach them, boy howdy.

It gets old, shooting down the same thinly veiled threats... sorry, I mean arguments, again and again, and getting no substantive response (often, no response at all), only to have them dragged out again a short time later. You know?

[Opteron_Man]

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

"God exists" isn't an educated guess, it's blind faith. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest the existence of god.

That's right. I approached a diehard religious faith-head in my family, and I pointed out a few glairing errors. When she failed to explain the MANY holes in the bible, she said something like "it is not about evidence, it is about just having faith!".

So let me get this straight, just throw out clear minded reasoning for blind faith!?

I couldn't believe the crap I was hearing!

[Slap Your Love]

Originally Posted by Opteron_Man

That's right. I approached a diehard religious faith-head in my family, and I pointed out a few glairing errors. When she failed to explain the MANY holes in the bible, she said something like "it is not about evidence, it is about just having faith!".

So let me get this straight, just throw out clear minded reasoning for blind faith!?

I couldn't believe the crap I was hearing!

Every theory of existence has holes. Faith fills them.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

No argument in the world can stop the Truth from being True.

Which is why I argue for truth even though SYL doesn't care. You really can't talk about faith and truth in the same sentence. If you knew it were truth, it wouldn't be that you have faith, just actual knowledge, so nice try.

If God -does- turn out to be real in one way or another, I wonder what folks like you will do, Jillian.

Drake already said it, but I'll say it in less words:
If God -does- turn out to be real and turns out he rewards -skeptics- rather than those with -blind faith- I wonder what folks like you will do.

[isobel black]

Originally Posted by Slap Your Love

Obviously you didn't read my spiritual connection and feeling post kiddo.

I could bring up the whole Pascal's wager thing but I really can't be bothered to argue the different aspects of your reasoning, especially since several people have been doing that for many pages of posts now.

I did read the whole thread, and I merely wanted to point out that to the outside observer your posts imply that at least part of your motivation for believing is the fear that you will be punished for not believing in the event that god does turn out to exist.

What's really beyond me is that people actually find comfort in believing in a petty vindictive god, who would cause destruction because it happens to be 'whatever the fuck he wants', and would damn good people just because they had the intelligence and independence to doubt his existance.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by isobel black

What's really beyond me is that people actually find comfort in believing in a petty vindictive god, who would cause destruction because it happens to be 'whatever the fuck he wants', and would damn good people just because they had the intelligence and independence to doubt his existance.

I agree, the Pascal's Wager shit is cowardly at best. What if God exists like the Christians say he does? So I should believe in him just incase, otherwise I'll burn in a fire? I can't live my life the way I see fit because of the slim chance that there is a god?

I should also leave a bowl of candy outside my door every night otherwise when I'm on my deathbed Pyramid Head might come out of my closet and rip my skin off. Or I should keep a piece of iron on me at all times in the slim chance I get spirited away by fairies. There's a myriad of superstitions that one could make up or others actually believe, why not live in fear of all things we have no proof of? Why limit it to God?

[$haDe]

Very 'convincing' proofs.

:/

[Albert Mond]

Originally Posted by $haDe

Very 'convincing' proofs.

:/

Let's have sex.

[Drake Dun]

Originally Posted by isobel black

What's really beyond me is that people actually find comfort in believing in a petty vindictive god, who would cause destruction because it happens to be 'whatever the fuck he wants', and would damn good people just because they had the intelligence and independence to doubt his existance.

And not just believe in the existence of, but adore. It's beyond me, too. I keep trying to understand it, but the only way I have ever figured out to make sense of it is to assume that the believers are depraved beyond the capacity of my imagination to apprehend. The Abrahamic religions are an ill disguised assault upon the first and last shreds of compassion and humanity. If evil means anything at all, then the god of the Jews is its apotheosis. And if anyone has doubts about that, I advise them to pick up and read the Bible some time. I often wish Christians would do that. They never seem to do so.

But leave aside the genocidal monster deity of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims, and consider the notion of an actually benevolent god. I was recently asked a question by a fellow non-believer who does not share my level of excitement about the perversity of religion. Imagining that I did believe in an afterlife (with cookies and lumps of coal distributed), what did I think would be the appropriate punishment for a child molester, murderer, or other stereoptyical arch-bad guy? How much suffering is enough?

Could the answer possibly be more obvious? None. None. That is the only possible punishment from an omnipotent, omnibenevloent caretaker. It's the only answer which is even logically compatible with such a god's definition. Here in the real world we inflict suffering on those who transgress our moral injunctions out of bitter necessity. Out of fear that if we leave their actions unchecked, they'll do it again. Or worse yet, that we'll set a precedent which encourages others to do the same.

A god worthy of the title, on the other hand, doesn't have that problem. It should be trivial for him to show our reprobate individual the error of his ways and to reform him. Or supposing that the guy's fundamental nature renders such a thing impossible, to simply separate him from his potential victims. Or at least to give him the kiss of merciful oblivion. And to heal the wounds of those who have been hurt. But no. The best he can come up with is more suffering? Bloody vengence? Lakes of fire? After we've all lived through this "veil of tears" he created for us, in which many of of take as one of our great consolations the fact that we do not share the fates of our least fortunate fellow beings, like having our eyeballs eaten alive by micro-organisms of His glorious design? Are you fucking kidding me? He can violate the laws of physics at the slightest whim, but even after the fucked up job he's made of our world, he can't even figure out a way to straighten out things between us after it's over? GOD can't do better than this?

Here's the Christian vision of justice in the afterlife: The wayward soul (for example, someone who has the incredible temerity to not be Christian) is subjected to agony of an intensity beyond comprehension, forever, to our our own sadistic glee. And here's a a vision of an afterlife worthy of the name "Heaven": God digs deep into the broken, wrecked frame of the sinner's soul (speaking now of a person who has actually harmed people), and rescues him from the horror of his history. Delivered from himself, and we delivered from our fear of him, he returns to the affectionate embrace of his creator, and to our own brotherly company.

But I guess for some people, that's just a little too good. Heaven is nothing without the garnish of hate. For those of you who, on the other hand, who harbor ideals of simple decency, take just one honest look inside your heart. Is this what you want out of an afterlife? Revenge? It's pure fear, anger, and hate. Plain and simple. IT'S NOT GOD. It's not God's justice. It's not God's anything. It's yours, and it's the worst of you - the part of you that can't distinguish justice and revenge, that wants bloody, animal reprisal as a balm for its equally animal terror. Stop trying to pretend it's justice, and for fuck's sake, Christians et al., stop calling it love. The irony of those who believe that some things are sacrosanct and beyond defilement inevitably being the ones who eagerly defile the last bastion of human decency is more than I can bear.

Your hate is not holy. Your lust for control is not holy. Your fear is not holy. And your God is not holy. He's not even good. I'm better than God. You're better than God. And it's far, far past time that we moved beyond this. We have enough trouble with the evil in our own hearts. We don't need to make things worse by dreaming up malevolent silverbacks in the sky.

No gods. No masters.

[Necrophagist]

God by definition is omnipotent, and omnicence. If he doesn't want to be found, he won't be.

@ Isobel, stop failing at posting valid arguments.

[$haDe]

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able
Then he's not omnipotent
Is he able but not willing
Then he's malevolence
If he is able and willing
Then whence come evil
If he's neither able nor willing
Then why call him God?"

I'm not sure if I type them all right. Once said by an ancient Greek atheist, Epicurus.


I know that it's not really related to what we're talking about but I feel like it belongs here.

[Slap Your Love]

Originally Posted by Necrophagist

God by definition is omnipotent, and omnicence. If he doesn't want to be found, he won't be.

Many here do not understand this.
Not do they understand that if you do believe and God does exist
based on if your belief in him is acceptance by him then you gain.
And if he goes not exist and you don't believe then nothing the
same as if you do believe and God doesn't exist then nothing.
You gain nothing by denying an existence of God.
No reason not to. No proof? So? No proof why not to either.

Originally Posted by $haDe

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able
Then he's not omnipotent
Is he able but not willing
Then he's malevolence
If he is able and willing
Then whence come evil
If he's neither able nor willing
Then why call him God?"

God uses evil, or sin, as a tool.

[Drake Dun]

Can someone translate that into English for me, so I can rebut it?