Goth: Your Opinion

[PinstripesAndPithHelmets]

Originally Posted by Eclipsing the Son

You should know by now that Mollymac only ever states her opinion. She NEVER backs it up though. She's 'too cool' for that.

Ahh. Affected disinterestedness does seem to be popular on this board. Too bad it's a paper-thin shield. I wonder if she'll deign to respond.

[Eclipsing the Son]

Originally Posted by PinstripesAndPithHelmets

They do. Bauhaus isn't goth anymore.

Bauhaus isn't a band anymore either.

Despite what Peter Murphy says, his band was goth. It's the same as how Christians didn't call themselves Christians. Their observers did. They actually called themselves "The Way."

Bauhaus was called post-punk in their day but are now unanimously recognized as goth.

Originally Posted by PinstripesAndPithHelmets

Ahh. Affected disinterestedness does seem to be popular on this board. Too bad it's a paper-thin shield. I wonder if she'll deign to respond.

If she does give an actual response, it will only be because we have used reverse psychology on her.

[XXChristabelXX]

sez the moron whose greatest achievement is making an emo cry. I bet you weep in pride and joy every time you win a cracker jack prize too

[PinstripesAndPithHelmets]

Originally Posted by Eclipsing the Son

Bauhaus isn't a band anymore either.

Despite what Peter Murphy says, his band was goth. It's the same as how Christians didn't call themselves Christians. Their observers did. They actually called themselves "The Way."

What was called post-punk in Bauhaus's day is now unanimously recognized as goth.

And here we see the unwashed masses rearing their ugly heads. This goes to show that not only does the majority have the power to define what is goth (or any other subculture, for that matter), but also to lump people into that category who actively deny being a part of it.

Joe Sixpack: I'm no Communist!

Joe McCarthy: Yes you are, and I've got a torch-wielding mob behind me to prove it! Take 'im away!

[Eclipsing the Son]

It's called reality. You'll get used to it and eventually embrace it as 'not all as bad as I used to believe'.

[PinstripesAndPithHelmets]

Originally Posted by Eclipsing the Son

It's called reality. You'll get used to it and eventually embrace it as 'not all as bad as I used to believe'.

I never denied it, nor did I ever say how bad I may or may not have once believed it to be.

[gothicusmaximus]

Originally Posted by PinstripesAndPithHelmets

Is that all it takes, then? Do we now include everyone that likes Bauhaus and The Cure, among others, under the label of "goth"? I guarantee you that doing so would incite a shitstorm of protest from many members of this forum, with all the attendant screaming about needing to go to goth clubs, and such. Hell, I like both of those bands, but I wouldn't consider myself goth. I'm also betting that most self-professed goths wouldn't either.

Well, I'd say considering oneself a goth is another requirement. One can't be a goth involuntarily, and generally people who are enthusiastic enough in their fondness for goth music to regard themselves as 'goth' choose to dress in a way that associates them with the community, and to interact with that community at goth nights. Nevertheless, I doubt any fan of the music who shunned participation the scene would be as violently rejected by goths as you imagine he would be-- personally, my hatred of goth clubs is second only to my hatred of the people who generally populate them, and gnet members, for the most part, adore me and let me run around calling myself Gothicus Maximus.

They do. Bauhaus isn't goth anymore. Or, if it is, it won't be soon enough. Bauhaus didn't change, the people defining goth did. It's evolution, baby.

Fortunately my goth-cred will survive the great definition-shift, as I still dress like a tool and love attention.
Bauhaus did kind of change. Did you hear 'Go Away White'? Wretched. Also, Peter Murphy is bald.

[PinstripesAndPithHelmets]

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

One can't be a goth involuntarily

Eh, that's debatable. Apparently Peter Murphy denies being goth. So does Robert Smith. Who's to say? Not them, apparently.

[KontanKarite]

And lots of punk bands didn't want to be called punk. What's your point?

Sometimes, I like being a smartass. I enjoy the music I listen to. I also like to deny being goth to those that inquire because those people have a definition of goth that's more quantifying and limiting than my more liberal definition of "a fan of goth rock".

So yes, I do deny being called goth a lot as much as Peter and Robert.

[PinstripesAndPithHelmets]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

And lots of punk bands didn't want to be called punk. What's your point?

My point? Did you miss the whole discussion about how the majority is allowed to define things like which subculture you belong to? I think the point is in there. Go check it out.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by PinstripesAndPithHelmets

My point? Did you miss the whole discussion about how the majority is allowed to define things like which subculture you belong to? I think the point is in there. Go check it out.

Ooh, In B4 Edit. Goodness.

Hey, you know, now that you mention it, I think there's a great LOT of people on here, goths and non-goths are going to have to get used to the new association of subculture that they're in.

Since it's up to the masses to determine what subculture someone's in, then I think it's safe to say that we're all actually emos. Nothing we can do about that. It's public opinion and what they think is what the facts are.

And here we were, this whole time, busting each others balls as to what made a goth, a bunch arbitrary ideals of darkness or a fan of a music genre. We're so damned silly, us emos.

[PinstripesAndPithHelmets]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

.

Since it's up to the masses to determine what subculture someone's in, then I think it's safe to say that we're all actually emos. Nothing we can do about that. It's public opinion and what they think is what the facts are.

We're so damned silly, us emos.

Now you're getting it.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by PinstripesAndPithHelmets

And here we see the unwashed masses rearing their ugly heads. This goes to show that not only does the majority have the power to define what is goth (or any other subculture, for that matter), but also to lump people into that category who actively deny being a part of it.

Wait, so you agree with this, right?

[Eclipsing the Son]

Good God... Are we... are we actually nearing a conclusion!?

[PinstripesAndPithHelmets]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

Wait, so you agree with this, right?

Do I feel that mass opinion has the power to bull people into labels whether they're comfortable with those labels or not? Absolutely.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

Wait, so you agree with this, right?

Apparently so. I had no idea that if a shit load of people thought I was some kind of vagrant and their prejudices is what makes me the real person that I am.

[PinstripesAndPithHelmets]

Originally Posted by Eclipsing the Son

Good God... Are we... are we actually nearing a conclusion!?

Steady.... This is usually where the ground falls out from beneath your feet.

[PinstripesAndPithHelmets]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

Apparently so. I had no idea that if a shit load of people thought I was some kind of vagrant and their prejudices is what makes me the real person that I am.

I never said that mass opinion will invariably change you as a person. It might, but then it also might not. I only said that it has the power to affect perception of you, of what subculture you belong to, etc. There's a great difference.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by PinstripesAndPithHelmets

I never said that mass opinion will invariably change you as a person. It might, but then it also might not. I only said that it has the power to affect perception of you, of what subculture you belong to, etc. There's a great difference.

Yes, but you see, you're saying that truth is nothing vs. public opinion.

We're saying that despite what opinions say, truth can't be denied. There will always be those that know the truth, weather it's said or not, it's always there.

[Eclipsing the Son]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

Yes, but you see, you're saying that truth is nothing vs. public opinion.

We're saying that despite what opinions say, truth can't be denied. There will always be those that know the truth, weather it's said or not, it's always there.

Whoa. Hold on. Bullshit alarm is blaring.

"goth" has nothing to do with truth. It's a human idea and description. Not a form of matter or scientific law. I'm beginning to believe you're just being argumentative for argument's sake.

We are not discussing the weather either.

[PinstripesAndPithHelmets]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

Yes, but you see, you're saying that truth is nothing vs. public opinion.

We're saying that despite what opinions say, truth can't be denied. There will always be those that know the truth, weather it's said or not, it's always there.

This is a separate issue. Truth is a rather fuzzy concept, especially when you try to balance it against popular perception. In the end, however, truth can be denied. That's the entire point of propaganda, to sway opinion whether truthful or not.

The degree to which the definition of goth has been affected by such swings in popular opinion is open to debate, but one cannot say that it hasn't changed with the passage of time.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Eclipsing the Son

Whoa. Hold on. Bullshit alarm is blaring.

"goth" has nothing to do with truth. It's a human idea and description. Not a form of matter or scientific law. I'm beginning to believe you're just being argumentative for argument's sake.

We are not discussing the weather either.

No. I'm not. Look, the reality, the truth is, that there will always be mallgoths who will be "goth" by public opinion or... emos, and then there will be fans of goth rock who will be goth, but probably wont give a damn about the label anyway.

[gothicusmaximus]

The status of celebrity musicians in a music subculture is a different matter entirely. If a popular band attracts a largely goth fanbase, which generally happens due to some similarity on the band's part to a seminal goth group, that band can be considered 'a goth band' in my view. This is not because I want to deny Peter Murphy his right to self-identify, but because it's easy to organize things that way.
Average Joe, though, who does not front a well-known musical ensemble, does have a say in to which subculture he belongs. No one can browbeat him into having anything to do with goth-- if he's mistakenly associated with the scene, he can correct whoever is responsible for that mistake, and unless this individual is pathologically stubborn, everyone can move on with their lives.

[Eclipsing the Son]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

No. I'm not. Look, the reality, the truth is, that there will always be mallgoths who will be "goth" by public opinion or... emos, and then there will be fans of goth rock who will be goth, but probably wont give a damn about the label anyway.

You're on an entirely different train of thought at this point.

Final Word: To be GOTH you must listen to and enjoy goth-rock music and, as a bonus, get to dress like a pretentious twat, with an unearned sense of accomplishment, and have an appreciation for the darker aesthetics of life and/or it's experiences.

All in agreement. Say "AYE!"

AYE!

[PinstripesAndPithHelmets]

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

The status of celebrity musicians in a music subculture is a different matter entirely. If a popular band attracts a largely goth fanbase, which generally happens due to some similarity on the band's part to a seminal goth group, that band can be considered 'a goth band' in my view. This is not because I want to deny Peter Murphy his right to self-identify, but because it's easy to organize things that way.

(my emphasis)

So you decide what labels to put where because it makes things easier. Remind me, how is that any different from the majority lumping people and ideas into certain categories, regardless of the wishes of the people being labeled?