One nation under God?

Xombie · 12-16-2007, 05:43 PM

In my government class, we've been studying many cases involving the separation of church and state. Do you think the portion of the American pledge "one nation under God" is unconstitutional?

clockworkcoffin · 12-16-2007, 05:45 PM

the so called "separation of church and state" doesn't actually exist anywhere in the constitution. as such, the phrase itself and its consequential affect on society is what is truly unconstitutional.

the phrase building a wall of separation between church and state was written by thomas jefferson in a january 1, 1802 letter to the danbury baptist association.

Xombie · 12-16-2007, 05:48 PM

You're right. It isn't in the Consitution, but the Establishment Clause has been created, which does state that government cannot aid one religion OR all religions. Even though the term "God" doesn't refer to any particular religion, it is supporting ALL religions.

clockworkcoffin · 12-16-2007, 05:55 PM

actually the establishment clause is merely an interpretation of the words "congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."

that combined with the so called free exercise clause which is an interpretation of the words "...or prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

the fact is our founding fathers were christians. whether or not someone disagrees with christianity or religion in general has no bearing on the pledge of allegiance.

Mon Coeur Noir · 12-16-2007, 06:22 PM

No, because the pledge isn't in the constitution. If ya don't wanna say it, you don't gotta. They don't say it in the schools anymore, so the only places left are places like Ball parks and things like that. People have the right to say, or not the pledge in public just as much as they have the right to pray or scream "Danzig is God." No one is making anyone say anything. It's like a poem, or the lyrics to a song. It's not a law, just some thing that some people say if they feel like it. That's the power of freedom.

Xombie · 12-16-2007, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mon Coeur Noir

No, because the pledge isn't in the constitution. If ya don't wanna say it, you don't gotta. They don't say it in the schools anymore, so the only places left are places like Ball parks and things like that. People have the right to say, or not the pledge in public just as much as they have the right to pray or scream "Danzig is God." No one is making anyone say anything. It's like a poem, or the lyrics to a song. It's not a law, just some thing that some people say.

Actually, in my school we do still say the pledge at the start of each day. We aren't forced to say it, but the teacher stares you down if you don't. =P

clockworkcoffin · 12-16-2007, 06:25 PM

i totally agree. i'm a christian and i was actually raised not to say it because my only true allegiance is supposed to be god himself.

i always found it fun when teachers stare at you because then other people stare and some of them realize that they can do what you are doing (or not doing as the case may be) without getting in trouble.

Mon Coeur Noir · 12-16-2007, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xombie

Actually, in my school we do still say the pledge at the start of each day. We aren't forced to say it, but the teacher stares you down if you don't. =P

REALLY? Where do you go? What state? I thought they got rid of that.

Xombie · 12-16-2007, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mon Coeur Noir

REALLY? Where do you go? What state? I thought they got rid of that.

I live in Pennsylvania. We went over this in class. We haven't gotten rid of it because I guess my area is of a sort of religious history, and nobody has even mentioned getting rid of it.

clockworkcoffin · 12-16-2007, 06:28 PM

actually my former high school still says it too. of course you don't have to if you don't want to but it is something they do. only on mondays though.

i live in minnesota...not so surprising when you think about it.

Mon Coeur Noir · 12-16-2007, 06:29 PM

WOW! We didn't have to in my high school.

clockworkcoffin · 12-16-2007, 06:36 PM

interesting. may i ask what state you went to high school in?

killer_asian_Dax · 12-16-2007, 06:57 PM

We used to have to say it when I was in grade school, but I never did. I didn't want to. Before I could evern truly understand it, I just throught it was stupid. Of course all of the teachers stared me down something aweful for it, but I was also blessed with aloofness at that age so I never really noticed the stares until one of my classmates brought it up.

clockworkcoffin · 12-16-2007, 07:00 PM

aloofness is useful.

Godslayer Jillian · 12-16-2007, 07:16 PM

The "under god" was only added in the 50's if I'm correct. The In God We Trust was also something invented around the 50's.

clockworkcoffin · 12-16-2007, 07:18 PM

this is off topic but jillian you are a sexy beast.

ArielDevaki · 12-16-2007, 07:20 PM

I dont even say the pledge anymore. I just sit down in the back of class, watching every person half-heartedly murmmering the pledge.

Heh, they should change it to "one nation under glory",- or money.

clockworkcoffin · 12-16-2007, 07:31 PM

"one nation under capitalism"

dark_dragon_of_ice · 12-16-2007, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clockworkcoffin

"one nation under capitalism"

The funny thing here is that their is no capital letters in your sentence..Not trying to attack you its just funny.

clockworkcoffin · 12-16-2007, 07:59 PM

hahaha, i can definitely appreciate the humor and irony in that. i'm actually laughing out loud right now.

spoon! · 12-16-2007, 08:51 PM

I used to say that as archiac as it is, if the pledge was removed, hardly anyone would miss it. It used to be such a nuisance having to stand up, worry about putting the right hand over my heart and say the thing.

dark_dragon_of_ice · 12-16-2007, 08:55 PM

It seems a bit old fashioned I'm glad our country doesn't do that..

clockworkcoffin · 12-16-2007, 09:22 PM

it really is kind of useless. why pledge allegiance to a country that nobody likes anyway?

Drake Dun · 12-17-2007, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xombie

Do you think the portion of the American pledge "one nation under God" is unconstitutional?

There are two levels to that analysis. The first is the question of whether the addition by congress in 1954 of the words "under God" is unconstitutional. The second is whether having public officials get children to say the pledge is unconstitutional. Without digging too deeply into legal details, my answer to both questions is "definitely yes" in view of standing precedent, and "maybe" if you leave precedent out and focus on the text of the Constitution alone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by clockworkcoffin

the phrase building a wall of separation between church and state was written by thomas jefferson in a january 1, 1802 letter to the danbury baptist association.

The context: "...I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state."

http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html

It could not be clearer that Jefferson's own reading of the First Amendment was that it instituted a separation of church and state.

Quote:

the fact is our founding fathers were christians. whether or not someone disagrees with christianity or religion in general has no bearing on the pledge of allegiance.

It's not that simple. Some of them were straightforwardly Christian, others were, in their own view, Christian unlike all those damn Christians (if you know what I mean), still others were deists, and there has been some serious speculation that one or two were actual atheists. What they had in common, on the whole, was a healthy suspicion of established religion and a firm commitment to keeping government out of the God business.

Not that any of that is relevant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mon Coeur Noir

No, because the pledge isn't in the constitution.

The constitution does not render unconstitutional other parts of the constitution. Learn about your topic before forming an opinion on it.

Drake

Linen · 12-17-2007, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xombie

You're right. It isn't in the Consitution, but the Establishment Clause has been created, which does state that government cannot aid one religion OR all religions. Even though the term "God" doesn't refer to any particular religion, it is supporting ALL religions.

It's not supporting NON-religion though. What about athiests and agnostics, etc? I don't think "God" or the word "God" should have any place in government in any form.

Oh, and actually Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, James Madison, and John Adams, were all *said to be* Deists, not Christian. Deists believe in God, but that God was only part of creating us and that he doesn't have any influence over us now (forgive me if there's more to it, but that's the basic premise of it as far as I know).