Not-a-Goth Goth

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Wynneth

Is goth centrally and inextricably related to music and only 80's post-punk/inspired music? I thought it was more of an aesthetic, a way of looking at the world, a way of...being.

Goth IS CENTRALLY AND IEXTRICABLY RELATED TO MUSIC AND ONLY 80's POST-PUNK INSPIRED MUSIC!
Seriously, you might have said it with contempt, but you have just described what goth is in the best words I have ever heard.
We actually get annoyed when people think it's, as you later said, a "way of being"

A lot of newbies feel sad and disappointed for all the wrong reasons. Just think of it.
You want to expand the definition of goth so that there's more profundity to it, more variation and elaborateness (if that's a word) to goth withing itself.
But if it's that expanded definition that describes someone goth, then all goths would BE the same rather than look the same!
With our simple and shallow definition, that's just what goth is, and we're much more than that and we're not restrained by any expectation.

When you really think of it, your, and countless other babybats', desires, would make us a very dull and unimaginative culture.
If it was about "darkness inside" then anyone happy wouldn't be goth. If it was about Victorian literature, then any fan of Bohemianism wouldn't be a goth. If goths listen to any music SO LONG AS IT'S 'DARK', then no fan of genuinely good bands like The Clash and Bob Dylan would be goth.
What a dull individual would that be.

[Wynneth]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

Goth IS CENTRALLY AND I[N]EXTRICABLY RELATED TO MUSIC AND ONLY 80's POST-PUNK INSPIRED MUSIC!
Seriously, you might have said it with contempt, but you have just described what goth is in the best words I have ever heard.

I didn't say it with contempt, at all. I was attempting to understand what Gothimus Maximus was saying. After all, I was under a misapprehension.

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

We actually get annoyed when people think it's, as you later said, a "way of being"

Why? Does it really matter that much?

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

A lot of newbies feel sad and disappointed for all the wrong reasons. Just think of it. You want to expand the definition of goth so that there's more profundity to it, more variation and elaborateness (if that's a word) to goth withing itself.

It's not that I want to expand the definition--I'm simply putting forth the notion that it has expanded, all on its own.

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

But if it's that expanded definition that describes someone goth, then all goths would BE the same rather than look the same!

I don't really think that's an accurate assumption. No one, even if they tried, could be exactly like anyone else. That's what makes people so wonderfully unique.

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

With our simple and shallow definition, that's just what goth is, and we're much more than that and we're not restrained by any expectation.

I think you're restrained in one sense: you expect others to immediately know an incredibly esoteric definition of a subculture that's barely hanging on as it originated.

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

When you really think of it, your, and countless other babybats', desires, would make us a very dull and unimaginative culture.

Firstly, I'm not a "babybat," and I certainly couldn't speak to, nor represent, their desires. I only know my own and I do believe you're jumping to conclusions as to what mine entail. You're also, by generalization, paying me an insult.

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

If it was about "darkness inside" then anyone happy wouldn't be goth.

This is erroneous. I'm quite a happy person, but I embrace the darkness inside myself, if only to better understand it.

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

If it was about Victorian literature, then any fan of Bohemianism wouldn't be a goth.

I don't think that the two are mutually exclusive, here. I'm sure there are many, many people who enjoy both. Who doesn't have at least one set of interests that are in clear dichotomy to each other? Rap and Country, for instance.

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

If goths listen to any music SO LONG AS IT'S 'DARK', then no fan of genuinely good bands like The Clash and Bob Dylan would be goth. What a dull individual would that be.

Oh, I highly disagree. No one is confined to liking one, and only one type of music. Perhaps there are those who prefer one type over others, but I don't think that liking one type of music automatically means you shun another type of music. That's why music is a highly subjective topic--it's all about what sounds good to you.


And, now that I think on it, is "goth" really the appropriate term for those out there who know, embrace and live its original meaning? Have any of those "true goths" ever stopped to think about why their "subculture" was called "goth" and not "creepshow" or something along those lines? There was a reason those musicians were dubbed "goth," and it had very little to do with the actual music--which is simply notes and rhythms written on five little lines... It's about the mood/feeling/ambiance it evoked when heard by others.

And, having said that... Classical music of today is still classical music, despite the fact that it's evolved many, many times over. Whether or not the old-school classical fans accept it or not--citing that no music past the Romance period is true classical--the classical music of today remains, as ever, classical. I think the same has happened with "goth" music, whether or not the old-schoolers accept it.

But, beyond that point... If you're unhappy with how people understand the term "goth," coin a more fitting phrase: OrigiGoth is one I've used many times in this thread; feel free to use it. Otherwise, don't berate and despise people for not inherently knowing the "true" definition of "goth."

I think the Visigoths would, indeed, find this whole situation laughable. Well, truthfully, they'd probably just burn our towns, kill the men and r*pe all the women--but, that's barbarians for you.

...Maybe "goth" is appropriate for the old-school crowd. Many of you seem more than willing to rip into someone's proverbial throat, as I've seen on many posts on these boards. -wink-

[TheBloodEternity]

Most of the dark post-punk bands in the '80s didn't want to be referred to as goth.

Goth is almost entirely a music-based subculture. Saying a goth doesn't have to listen to goth rock because music is subjective is kinda like saying a metalhead doesn't have to listen to metal. Also, most of the bands that people refer to as "goth" have other genres that they are more readily identified by, therefore no need to coin them as some form of evolved or changed goth rock.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Wynneth

There was a reason those musicians were dubbed "goth," and it had very little to do with the actual music

Because Andi SexGang was referred by his friends as Gothic Goblin.

[TheBloodEternity]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

Because Andi SexGang was referred by his friends as Gothic Goblin.

Really? I had always wondered why.

[Jaye Jang]

Wynneth, Love the French horn. Like the medieval name. Welcome aboard. (re: Clothes -- try scouting around for outfits from your local high school/college drama clubs. Sometimes they sell their excess costumes off to pay for new productions or just make room for new ones. You might be able to come up with something affordable that way).

[viscus]

If I may, I'd just like to point out that there are plenty of contemporary musicians who carry the Goth torch. Most of them are Darkwave, but there are a good number of Deathrock revivalists.

[Wynneth]

Originally Posted by TheBloodEternity

Most of the dark post-punk bands in the '80s didn't want to be referred to as goth.

Goth is almost entirely a music-based subculture. Saying a goth doesn't have to listen to goth rock because music is subjective is kinda like saying a metalhead doesn't have to listen to metal. Also, most of the bands that people refer to as "goth" have other genres that they are more readily identified by, therefore no need to coin them as some form of evolved or changed goth rock.

Whether or not they wanted to be called goth is irrelevant, right now.

I wasn't saying that a goth doesn't have to listen to goth rock because music is subjective. No. What I'm saying is, very few people, these days, actually remember what goth started out as and, therefore, they've applied their own meaning to it. Most likely, the preconceptions of what the goth subculture is in people's minds, today, is because of the "look" goths started. What they took from that look has been applied to the subculture and, as a result, the term "goth" has evolved--which leads to what's considered "goth" music, today. That is where the subjectivity comes into play.

Of course, the old-schoolers don't accept it, but it's happened, anyway.

Originally Posted by TheBloodEternity

Because Andi SexGang was referred by his friends as Gothic Goblin.

Interesting. Why did they call him 'Gothic Goblin'? What about his behavior/appearance could've provoked such a nickname coming into existence?

And, I notice that a lot of the things I said went unanswered. I hope they weren't summarily ignored and, instead, are being mulled over in the mind. -smile-

Originally Posted by Jaye Jang

Wynneth, Love the French horn. Like the medieval name. Welcome aboard. (re: Clothes -- try scouting around for outfits from your local high school/college drama clubs. Sometimes they sell their excess costumes off to pay for new productions or just make room for new ones. You might be able to come up with something affordable that way).

Thanks so much for the compliments and the welcome! I appreciate the suggestion, as well, but it remains that wearing EGA/EGL clothing isn't practical, however lovely I find it to be. -smile-

Originally Posted by viscus

If I may, I'd just like to point out that there are plenty of contemporary musicians who carry the Goth torch. Most of them are Darkwave, but there are a good number of Deathrock revivalists.

I'm assuming this wasn't aimed at me, considering I'm not familiar with the music intricacies.

[Tam Li Hua]

Hey there! I know we've already conversed a bit, but I didn't see your intro until now.

I think I'm similar to you; I feel goth, but I'm not one in the strictest sense. My friend said I'm more gothic-inspired than straight goth, and that's the best description I've come up with. XD

I'm not a huge fan of MCR, but I wouldn't mind going to see one of their concerts. I've heard that they are very theatrical, and I might get a kick out of that. XD

[Tam Li Hua]

And, for what it's worth, I agree with your responses to Jillian above; the term 'goth' -does- have a broader meaning now than it used to, even if people don't like it. The general public doesn't even know about the musical aspect; it's all about the fashion and the gloomy outlook on life.

What's ironic, of course, is that the old school 'goth' bands didn't even like the title [and I assume still don't], and that the term 'Goth' in and of itself wasn't pinned by fans of these bands, but rather by the media! XD So it always amuses me when people get 'pissed off' and tell someone that they are 'doin it wrong!!1' in regards to Gothism.

It's not a religion. It's a fashion, and possibly a musical taste. The definition -did- expand and evolve, as all such things must if they are to survive; if Goth stayed the way the media intended it when the term was first pinned, then it would have died out a long time ago.

[Wynneth]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

Hey there! I know we've already conversed a bit, but I didn't see your intro until now.

I think I'm similar to you; I feel goth, but I'm not one in the strictest sense. My friend said I'm more gothic-inspired than straight goth, and that's the best description I've come up with. XD

Hi. -smile- I'm glad you sort of understand where I'm coming from. I don't think I'm goth, but I do feel that my aesthetic is gothic. In a completely non-music-related way.

Frankly, the idea that the post-punk music movement in the 80's should get first dibs on what "gothic" is...well, that's laughable, especially to a historian. There was "gothic" before there were any of the bands who allegedly made "goth" a subculture.

And, that is the kind of "goth" I am--the kind who finds beauty in gothic/gothic revival architecture, gothic art and gothic fiction. I'm even more old-school than the old-schoolers. -wink-

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

I'm not a huge fan of MCR, but I wouldn't mind going to see one of their concerts. I've heard that they are very theatrical, and I might get a kick out of that. XD

My Chem is, to be certain, my favorite band. Not because of their look or the misnomer that they're "goth," "emo," or "scene"... But, because of the quality of their music, the stories they tell and the message they deliver. That said, I doubt I'd ever be able to enjoy a concert, because I'm naturally disinclined to enjoy being around teeming hordes of teenagers who think that wriggling violently in huge oceans of people is fun. (And, the screaming. Dear god, the screaming.)

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by Wynneth

Hi. -smile- I'm glad you sort of understand where I'm coming from. I don't think I'm goth, but I do feel that my aesthetic is gothic. In a completely non-music-related way.

Frankly, the idea that the post-punk music movement in the 80's should get first dibs on what "gothic" is...well, that's laughable, especially to a historian. There was "gothic" before there were any of the bands who allegedly made "goth" a subculture.

And, that is the kind of "goth" I am--the kind who finds beauty in gothic/gothic revival architecture, gothic art and gothic fiction. I'm even more old-school than the old-schoolers. -wink-

lol Very cool.

I tend to appreciate the neo-victorian style more myself than the mohawks and what-not. [Though, of course, there's nothing wrong with mohawks; I just think not everyone can carry them off well.]

My Chem is, to be certain, my favorite band. Not because of their look or the misnomer that they're "goth," "emo," or "scene"... But, because of the quality of their music, the stories they tell and the message they deliver. That said, I doubt I'd ever be able to enjoy a concert, because I'm naturally disinclined to enjoy being around teeming hordes of teenagers who think that wriggling violently in huge oceans of people is fun. (And, the screaming. Dear god, the screaming.)

Mm, good point. I've only been to one big concert myself, and I had a lot of fun! Then again, it was a Muse concert, so I expect folks were a little more into the lyrics.

Out of curiosity, what album would you recommend to someone thinking about giving MCR a second chance? [I loved the Helena video; I first saw it a few months after my mom passed away, and I feel it expresses grief at the loss of a loved one perfectly. One's soul really -does- feel like screaming at that point. Heh.]

[Wynneth]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

lol Very cool.

I tend to appreciate the neo-victorian style more myself than the mohawks and what-not. [Though, of course, there's nothing wrong with mohawks; I just think not everyone can carry them off well.]

Mohawks? I'd say that's more in the punk-cum-scene (with the fauxhawks being "scene") range. -wink-

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

Out of curiosity, what album would you recommend to someone thinking about giving MCR a second chance? [I loved the Helena video; I first saw it a few months after my mom passed away, and I feel it expresses grief at the loss of a loved one perfectly. One's soul really -does- feel like screaming at that point. Heh.]

Oh, man. What a difficult question. Well, I'd say that it truly depends on your tastes, as far as their music's sound goes, because each album has a slightly different sound.

I Brought You My Bullets, You Brought Me Your Love (or simply Bullets, for short)--their first album--was very rough and screamy (which really took me a while to learn to appreciate). Many of their self-proclaimed "hardcore, true" fans are angry that My Chem evolved out of this particular sound and demand that they go back to the days of "bulletproof vests." Seems a bit familiar; no? -grin-

Their second, Three Cheers for Sweet Revenge (alternately dubbed Revenge or Three Cheers), is a bit more along the lines of their sound having developed a bit more--it's a bit more operatic--and there are many great songs on it (one of which is "Helena").

Their third, [i]The Black Parade[i] (nicknamed TPB, usually) has a wonderful cinematic and operatic bent to it--it literally is a rock opera. Tells a story, has characters, everything. And, it is considered the most "mainstream" album. (I hate that word--mainstream. Anyway...)

There are also some fantastic b-sides. Some of the best b-sides I've ever heard, personally. ... So, if you let me know which album you're interested in...or if you just want me to give you a list of songs to check out from each, just let me know. Though, considering the controversial nature of My Chem around here, we probably want to take it to PMs. -smile-

[JCC]

Stop trying to give a false meaning to a subculture. Goth is Goth, it's a subculture of fans of Gothic Rock bands. It's not a fucking way of life, a different perspective, a love of books, an appreciation of gothic architecture. It is what it is, not what you want it to be.

[Tam Li Hua]

Wynneth: Pardon the new color; I like changing things up every now and again. XD

Anyways, I would -love- to PM you. Unfortunately, one has to have a certain amount of posts in order to use the PM feature. :/ I don't know why, and I think it's a bit silly, but ah well.

However, I'd be very happy to continue this conversation over email, if you wish! My email address is tamlihua@mindless.com if you want to converse about MCR in private.

Just to put in a few details of what I prefer, though, I -do- like operatic things more than screamy. [I prefer what I call 'operatic metal' over the screamy, gruff metal most of the time. I. E., I'm more likely to pick Nightwish over Opeth, though I've been known to enjoy both.

[Wynneth]

Originally Posted by JCC

Stop trying to give a false meaning to a subculture. Goth is Goth, it's a subculture of fans of Gothic Rock bands. It's not a fucking way of life, a different perspective, a love of books, an appreciation of gothic architecture. It is what it is, not what you want it to be.

I'm not trying to give a false meaning to anything. "Goth" as you understand it is an offshoot of the older terminology "gothic," which is something that's altogether different.

And, I don't think you're qualified to tell me about gothic and what it means, when applied to art, architecture, fiction or perspective--simply because you outright deny the truth of its existence, despite it being a well-documented piece of history. You're right in that "it is what it is," but you seem to be conveniently ignoring the fact that what I've said is truth and is backed by history.

So, here and now, I'm starting my own subculture...called "gothic"...and it's based on my love of gothic sentimentality (art, architecture, fiction, etc.). Why should I be denied what you've done, yourself? -smile-

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

Wynneth: Pardon the new color; I like changing things up every now and again. XD

Anyways, I would -love- to PM you. Unfortunately, one has to have a certain amount of posts in order to use the PM feature. :/ I don't know why, and I think it's a bit silly, but ah well.

However, I'd be very happy to continue this conversation over email, if you wish! My email address is tamlihua@mindless.com if you want to converse about MCR in private.

Just to put in a few details of what I prefer, though, I -do- like operatic things more than screamy. [I prefer what I call 'operatic metal' over the screamy, gruff metal most of the time. I. E., I'm more likely to pick Nightwish over Opeth, though I've been known to enjoy both.

I'll contact you shortly. -smile-

[LiUsAiDh]

After reading this thread.... I have a completely irrelevant nit-pick to, uh, pick...


Stop fucking saying '-smile-', '-grin-', or any other variation in parenthesis thereof, in every bloody post!



P.S. Goth, as in this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goth

And Goth as in this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goth_subculture

are not the same thing!

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Wynneth

And, I don't think you're qualified to tell me about gothic and what it means, when applied to art, architecture, fiction or perspective--simply because you outright deny the truth of its existence, despite it being a well-documented piece of history. You're right in that "it is what it is," but you seem to be conveniently ignoring the fact that what I've said is truth and is backed by history.

And that history has shit to do with the goth subculture.
Andi Sexgang used to live in an apartment complex called the Visigoth Towers, and he was short, so his friends called him the Gothic Goblin. That name was assigned to his music fans and that's it.
We didn't "evolve" from a gloomy millennial style. No one researched the connotations of the word "goth."
It merely stuck.
You don't think the Flower Children have everything to do with horticulture and they're just kidding themselves, do you?

[Wynneth]

Originally Posted by LiUsAiDh

After reading this thread.... I have a completely irrelevant nit-pick to, uh, pick... Stop fucking saying '-smile-', '-grin-', or any other variation in parenthesis thereof, in every bloody post!

Is it against the rules? No? Well, then.

Originally Posted by LiUsAiDh

P.S. Goth, as in this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goth
And Goth as in this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goth_subculture are not the same thing!

You're right. They're not. Goth_subculture is an offshoot of Goth, but not Visigoth. Oh... What's the URL of this site? https://www.gothic.net Right? Not goth_subculture.net or esoteric_goth_subculture.net? Just wanted to make sure that I was posting about the "gothic" topic in the right place.

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

And that history has shit to do with the goth subculture.

Actually, goth subculture has "shit to do" with the original "gothic" terminology of history--which is what I embrace.

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

Andi Sexgang used to live in an apartment complex called the Visigoth Towers, and he was short, so his friends called him the Gothic Goblin.

Visigoth... Hmm. I seem to recall that word from history. But, I can see what you're saying.

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

That name was assigned to his music fans and that's it.

Really? What about the millions of folks who came, y'know, before the 80's fanbase?

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

We didn't "evolve" from a gloomy millennial style. No one fucking researched the connotations of the word "goth."

No. The esoteric goth music fans didn't evolve from anything except a post-punk 80's music fad. But, their nickname was ganked from the pages of history. -- Are you against research? I find that, if I'm uncertain about a matter, researching educates me on it and, thereafter, I am more qualified to make a statement upon it.

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

It merely stuck.

Did I see someone say that they didn't even enjoy being labeled as "goths"? If so, why does the dying fanbase still cling so desperately to the label and fight tooth and nail to make sure everyone knows exactly where it "came" from and what it "means"?

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

You don't think the Flower Children have everything to do with horticulture and they're just kidding themselves, do you?

I'm certain that many "flower children" did attempt to "live off the land," being the fluffy bunny peaceniks that they were. That's beside the point, though. What you're illustrating is that the name "Flower Children" was, at best, a poorly coined euphemism/nickname--it didn't accurately represent who they were, as people.

Nor, apparently, does "goth" fit the esoteric music fans of "goth" music.

Besides, I'm saying that I'm not an esoteric "goth," I'm more of an anachronistic gothIC. Why is that a thing that causes you distress? It's very clearly separate from "goth". In fact, that's what I've been striving to point out.

[Godslayer Jillian]

If you feel "gothic", then dude, just realize we're telling you that's not us.
Most goths hate the label precisely because of all the connotations people try to give to us.
If goths is simply let as it really is - a campy branch of punk - then it's just fun and we can actually enjoy it rather than be 'intellectual elitist' or 'poetically dark artists' or other nonsense like that that babybats love to imagine.
The millions of folks who came before the 80's weren't us.

And this site is about goths. It is (presumably) focused on literature, but that doesn't mean that we will all write trite and generic stories set in the past.
this thread's about Peter Murphy much more than it is about Varney the Vampire.
All we're saying is that 'feeling gothic on the inside' is not something we goths actually relate to.

[Madarame]

Originally Posted by Wynneth

Is it against the rules? No? Well, then.

No, it isn't against the rules but when used after you make a point it makes you seem like a condescending asshole, like you think you're talking to children or something.

[Wynneth]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

If you feel "gothic", then dude, just realize we're telling you that's not us.
Most goths hate the label precisely because of all the connotations people try to give to us.
If goths is simply let as it really is - a campy branch of punk - then it's just fun and we can actually enjoy it rather than be 'intellectual elitist' or 'poetically dark artists' or other nonsense like that that babybats love to imagine.
The millions of folks who came before the 80's weren't us.

And this site is about goths. It is (presumably) focused on literature, but that doesn't mean that we will all write trite and generic stories set in the past.
this thread's about Peter Murphy much more than it is about Varney the Vampire.
All we're saying is that 'feeling gothic on the inside' is not something we goths actually relate to.

Tsk. Now, it appears as though you're stereotyping me.

I am not an 'intellectual elitist,' nor a 'poetically dark artist.' I'm a writer, yes, but the past isn't my choice of setting. But, that said...why should it matter to you what the so-called "babybats" believe and understand "goth" to be? You, the collective esoteric "goth" you, who is so secure in the knowledge of the "true" subculture...should feel free to roll your eyes and shake your head, instead of gritting your teeth and digging your heels in.

I'm more than happy to let "goth", as the fanbase of the post-punk 80's music fad understand the term, be what it is to the fans. But, getting all up in arms about the misconceptions tied to it is unreasonable, given the fact that it is such esoteric knowledge and most people will attribute gothIC themes to it. It's not the "babybats'" fault that the media/whatever misnamed the subculture.

And, I'm not saying that "goths" should "feel gothic" about anything. You like what you like and I'll like what I like. But, just as you, I don't appreciate being stereotyped or painted as something other than what I am.

[LiUsAiDh]

Actually she is talking to a child, depending on your view of when one grows up. But she still is being a condescending asshole. Me no likey.

Originally Posted by Wynneth

Is it against the rules? No? Well, then.

I wasn't aware there were any rules around here other than not posting porno. Just because something is not against the rules doesn't make it right. Although, I was meaning that more broadly than referring to the '-smile-' issue.

However, using '-smile-' in your posts is unnecessary, just put '' it is both faster to type, and read.

You're right. They're not. Goth_subculture is an offshoot of Goth, but not Visigoth. Oh... What's the URL of this site? https://www.gothic.net Right? Not goth_subculture.net or esoteric_goth_subculture.net?

Gothic just means pertaining to goth. Most people don't qualify which meaning of 'goth' they're using because:

A) Context usually tells us which.
B) It's faster to type.
C) It's easier to say/it's an abbreviation.
D) Some thickets can't spell subculture.
E) Other thickets aren't aware of the Goths.

[Wynneth]

Originally Posted by LiUsAiDh

Actually she is talking to a child, depending on your view of when one grows up. But she still is being a condescending asshole. Me no likey.

I'm sorry you feel offended. Your age makes no difference to me.

Originally Posted by LiUsAiDh

I wasn't aware there were any rules around here other than not posting porno. Just because something is not against the rules doesn't make it right. Although, I was meaning that more broadly than referring to the '-smile-' issue.

However, using '-smile-' in your posts is unnecessary, just put '' it is both faster to type, and read.

I wasn't aware that typing something out as opposed to using emoticon shortcuts was "wrong". But, I will say that I prefer to type out my emotes, because it's more visually pleasing to me. I don't see how anyone could take it as being 'condescending' when it's simply a different way of doing something. If you're offended by that, it's your issue and not something I can control. However, I am well within my rights as an individual to do things the way I please, as long as it is within the rules. Since it is, it's really pointless to argue about it.

Originally Posted by Madarame

No, it isn't against the rules but when used after you make a point it makes you seem like a condescending asshole, like you think you're talking to children or something.

I've said nothing about age or maturity. If you feel that I have, it could be a reflection of a deep-seated fear or a defensive trigger for you. It's not my intent to make anyone feel immature--simply to make my point.

Originally Posted by LiUsAiDh

Gothic just means pertaining to goth. Most people don't qualify which meaning of 'goth' they're using because:

A) Context usually tells us which.
B) It's faster to type.
C) It's easier to say/it's an abbreviation.
D) Some thickets can't spell subculture.
E) Other thickets aren't aware of the Goths.

From Merriam-Webster :


Main Entry:
1 Goth·ic
Pronunciation:
\ˈgä-thik\
Function:
adjective
Date:
1591

1 a: of, relating to, or resembling the Goths, their civilization, or their language b: teutonic, germanic c: medieval 1 d: uncouth, barbarous
2 a: of, relating to, or having the characteristics of a style of architecture developed in northern France and spreading through western Europe from the middle of the 12th century to the early 16th century that is characterized by the converging of weights and strains at isolated points upon slender vertical piers and counterbalancing buttresses and by pointed arches and vaulting b: of or relating to an architectural style reflecting the influence of the medieval Gothic
3 often not capitalized : of or relating to a style of fiction characterized by the use of desolate or remote settings and macabre, mysterious, or violent incidents

Main Entry:
2 Gothic
Function:
noun
Date:
1691

1 a: black letter b: sans serif
2: Gothic art style or decoration; specifically : the Gothic architectural style
3: the East Germanic language of the Goths — see indo-european languages table4often not capitalized : a novel, film, or play in the gothic style

[$haDe]

Originally Posted by LiUsAiDh

C) It's easier to say/it's an abbreviation.

That explain a lot..It was an epic point!!

Why do goth and gothic labeled in same term of being gloomy and somber..?

Be'cos People said so.
Only shorten it for easier saying it out..That's it!

This shortening thing have to stop..

It's making a lot of misunderstood in goths and gothics all over the world who haven't awared of theirselves or seeking what they actually are.