Disturbing

[Cen0bite]

I can't believe this is happening. Some teachers in Britain are actually leaving out the Holocaust because it might offend some Muslim students. WTF?!?!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770

[Cyntrox]

Muslims? What the hell... They might as well do it because nazis are denying it!

[Cyntrox]

Originally Posted by Bloopie

history should never be forgotten.

On that, I agree with you. Only by looking at the past can we avoid repeating ourselves in the future.

[HumanePain]

Will ignorance ever end?

The world must continue to remember it, so as to avoid as much as possible a repeat tragedy. Otherwise the millions who died will have died in vain.

And there were many who died who were not Jews, so would teaching about the murders of those non-Jews still be offensive to Muslims? Come on! Some simple logic is needed here, not coddling.

[Cen0bite]

What is up with all the muslim ass kissing? Lately I've been seeing more and more of it.

[Binkie]

Yeah, welcome to the rewriting of history. Anti-Semitism isn't something to cater your coursework for. If children have a tough time learning about the theory of evolution because they're Christian, their parents need to yank them out of public schools and throw them into a private Christian school. Same with Muslims, Jews, and whoever else has a hard time with scientific concepts and historical events.

Sorry, but a lot of non-Muslim children are going to be dumbed down over some of the atrocities of WWII just because some folks are upset with Israel right now. Religion and politics need to remain out of the classroom. I'm sure a lot of material offends members of Neo Nazi groups. Who cares? Save the propaganda for home schooling.

[Drake Dun]

Islam is a cancer. Its world view is fundamentally at odds with basic principles of liberty and truth, and many of its adherents are prepared to resort to violence at the drop of a turban. It is rather like Christianity in this respect, except that Christianity is at least a couple hundred years ahead in the "take a fucking chill pill" department. Mainstream Muslims make Dubbya look like a bleeding heart liberal.

Ironically, the mainstream has allowed its own ethic of tolerance and sensitivity to be turned into a weapon against it by people who, given a shot at being in power, would immediately eliminate any kind of tolerance or sensitivity. Some Danish people publish a few unamusing cartoons, and there's blood in the street. The world should have reacted by printing more cartoons. Instead it simpered and scraped.

On the other hand, I cannot agree whole-heartedly with the proposition that we need to take special steps to remember history, or it will repeat itself. There's something to that, but at the same time, I am suspicious of the role history plays in the classroom. There is a dynamic in which everyone's concern over objectivity and fairness gets focused onto tne nature of the content, and the selection of the content gets ignored.

Example: I never had any idea until I came to Japan why Japan attacked the United States. The image I had basically gotten out of high school (I didn't do history in college) was of some crazy suicidal Asians coming out of the blue to murder Americans for no reason whatsoever. I have learned a lot of new stuff since I came here and... well, I still think they were in the wrong, but it is much easier for me to see why they did it now. Or while we're talking about atrocities... the simple fact is that history is filled with atrocities on par with or worse than what happened to the Jews in Germany. Yet we don't read much about those in our educational institutions.

And then there is always the issue of whether history is accurate, and the "winner writes the history" thing. Long story short, formal instruction in history at below the college level has more opinion forming effect than educational value (not that it need be so, just that it is). I am more for bursting the chains of history than trying to form new ones made of gold.

I suspect that if there is ever to be a general human peace (granted, a transcendent aim), it shall become not only possible, but necessary to let history slip into the mist and become the province of scholars. The still, sad song of human history just has too much of a brutalizing effect for me to see it as a tool for bringing out the better nature.

Drake

[CptSternn]

It's not taught because of the ending, not because of denial.

If you remember, the british took conquered lands in the middle east and simply 'gave' them to the jews to create israel. Thing was, those lands were occupied until the british decided they owned them and could give them away on a whim.

Needless to say the people who were living there that were kicked out of their homes stil are angry about being kicked off the farms and houses they had in their families for centuries.

In fact, many of those displace are still alive and some are living in britian. Their children also are still around, can remember being forced from their homes, and yes they too reside in places like britian.

This is nothing new. The british school system routinely hides pupils from history that makes them look bad - including Irish history and, yes you guessed it, history surrounding the American War for Independence.

It has feck all to do with the requests of the students and the requests of families, and has been in practice there for decades - its just getting attention there since they allowed burqa's to be worn in schools last week (another practice which was never banned, until recently, then the school system reversed back to the original policy).

Also note, the daily mail is yet another british rag known for hyperbole like all other cheap papers found in the check-out line at yer local supermarket.

[Binkie]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

It's not taught because of the ending, not because of denial.

If you remember, the british took conquered lands in the middle east and simply 'gave' them to the jews to create israel. Thing was, those lands were occupied until the british decided they owned them and could give them away on a whim.

Well of course! The British were merely pretending to intercept Jews traveling to Palestine durring WWII and shipped them back to Europe by orders of the White Paper of 1939, which put a relatively small cap on the number of Jews that were allowed to immigrate there. Only 75,000 Jews were allowed to relocate to Palestine from 1939 - 1944. Officially that is.

But again, Jews were just pretending to circumvent this act by the famous Aliyah Bet, which was the code name for the illegal immigration effort for Jews to relocate to Palestine durring WWII. But of course Sternn knows what he's talking about. The British may have created a naval blockade to prevent Jews from immigrating to Palestine, but they didn't mean it. The laws and regulations on limiting the immigration numbers weren't for real. Thousands of Jews that were placed in British detention camps weren't really there. That was just an April fool's joke.

Duuuuurh.

Jews have been immigrating to Palestine for centuries. Long before the British took control of that land. Once they did they sure as hell couldn't stop that from continuing by putting into act a policy of capping Jewish immigration at a rather small figure. Hmmm... maybe this is why the state of Israel, once created, immediately condemned the White Paper of 1939, a policy enacted by the British.

Hmmm... maybe this is also why Jewish groups like the Irgun started attacking British military and police targets in the 40s.

Once again, the propaganda from this idiot knows know bounds. Or maybe he just pretends to know history and makes everything up. Who knows. At any rate it's competely wrong. Hopefully no one read his post and became just that much dumber.

Holocaust denial is about either saying the event never took place at all, or wasn't responsible for killing as many people as the historians believe. It originated from Nazi propaganda and was widely adopted in the Soviet Union and Middle East, neither region having any kind feelings for Israel or Jews in general. What dumbshit is thinking of is Zionism.

[Renatus]

Well one comment which I foudn interesting the other day in my world history class is how students found "Alls Quiet on the Western front" depressing and how they said that "All movies are mean't to make you happy". Such disreguard for the dead especialy the dead who fought for a cause such as the first world war.

[Cen0bite]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Also note, the daily mail is yet another british rag known for hyperbole like all other cheap papers found in the check-out line at yer local supermarket.

Ah. Sorry, didn't know that about the daily mail.

[Binkie]

Sternn doesn't like the Daily Mail because it holds conservative views. The article is very real, as is the report of this. Here's the BBC article on the subject (which just reiterates everything mentioned in the Daily Mail article):

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...on/6517359.stm

[edible_eye]

Binkie -

You need to birth my children.

Now.

Thank you.

[Valerius]

Unfortunately, Binking, the IRA-wannabe will never get to read your post because he's put you on his ignore list.

It's saddening to hear that today we live in a world all about being 'politically correct', where one must not offend the likes of Muslims who can't take a chill pill and go berzerk at the slightest provocation (even if it isn't thrown at them). But, even I have to say that not all Muslims are bad - I have some Muslim friends - it's just that a sizeable chunk of them give the rest a bad name.

What's also saddening about this is that we're throwing out the very essence of the victory that was bought with blood, sweat and tears just for the sake of not 'offending' some camel-driver. They're forgetting the sacrifices of all sides by not passing on a significant part of the struggles of WWII. My grandfather fought in that war, and this act dishonors the very sacrifices he made just so we'd live free today.

[edible_eye]

Er... please pardon my pretty well intoxicated brain. It sometimes intrudes where it doesn't belong.

All better now.

Forget I was ever here.

[Binkie]

Originally Posted by Valerius

Unfortunately, Binking, the IRA-wannabe will never get to read your post because he's put you on his ignore list.

Perhaps it's better though. This way all of his posts get debunked without some long drawn out derailment and him bitching to the admins about being persecuted for being a dumbshit and a phoney. :P

What's also saddening about this is that we're throwing out the very essence of the victory that was bought with blood, sweat and tears just for the sake of not 'offending' some camel-driver. They're forgetting the sacrifices of all sides by not passing on a significant part of the struggles of WWII. My grandfather fought in that war, and this act dishonors the very sacrifices he made just so we'd live free today.

Indeed. It's ridiculous to cater history to extremist viewpoints. So ridiculous that we're now back pedalling the whole of the education system for a trend of hatred for Israel. And like you said, it pours cold water all over the achievements of our relatives who where there. Some of whom came across these camps and mass graves.

I hope there's enough fuss in the UK over this to bring about change. This kind of attitude towards education is pathetic. Maybe no one should teach about the Rwandan genocide because a handful of Hutu students deny it ever took place. And while we're at it, let's just not teach our children the world is round because it might offend someone still living in the dark ages that thinks it's flat as paper.

[Binkie]

Originally Posted by edible_eye

Er... please pardon my pretty well intoxicated brain. It sometimes intrudes where it doesn't belong.

All better now.

Forget I was ever here.

LOL! Yeah, I was kinda wondering, "WTF?"

It's all good, e_e. That's funny stuff though... you gotta admit looking back on it. XD

[emeraldlonewoulf]

Above comment, given context: Hilarious.


About the thread: I don't give a damn if you're Christian, Buddist, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, Jainist, or any other -ian, -ist, -im, or -ish, History is what it is, and omitting parts of it to suit religious preference is just as bad as making it up. It is important to preserve and teach an accurate account. Sadly, that is extremely rare, when it is possible.

[CLV]

The Daily Mail is full of utter shit, and should NEVER be quoted.
Also, one should never admit to reading it. It is the equivalent of reading 'Nuts' for your political updates.

[Valerius]

Originally Posted by Binkie

Perhaps it's better though. This way all of his posts get debunked without some long drawn out derailment and him bitching to the admins about being persecuted for being a dumbshit and a phoney. :P

Talk about accurate description. Harhar. He's on my ignore list, since I realized that, quoting Minyaliel's signature 'Never argue with an idiot, they'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience!', or something like that.

Originally Posted by CLV

The Daily Mail is full of utter shit, and should NEVER be quoted.
Also, one should never admit to reading it. It is the equivalent of reading 'Nuts' for your political updates.

Care to enlighten us on this? I think it was said somewhere up there that this outfit quoted the BBC, or something.

[CLV]

I couldn't do it justice.
Whereby the BBC might say for example
'This matter is very sensitive an should be treated as such',
the Daily Mails take would be "LOOK!!...LOOK AT WHAT THE BLOODY MUSLIMS ARE DOING NOW...AND THEY ARE DRAINING OUR COUNTRY....TAKING ALL OUR BENEFITS AND ****** OUR CHILDREN'.
Its just not a reliable source for news.

[Valerius]

Hahaha! Um, okay. I guess they exaggerate then? Although it would drive up hysteria for some people, I guess those are those out there level-headed enough to know the difference between hyped-up news and reality. Still, it remains clear what this particular news article is saying and I, for one, would not have such an insult at the sacrifices that took place because of some whiny-ass students and their parents, Muslim or not!