Arizona Governor signs immigration bill

[Shadowagony]

Capt Stern, You make some very good points that I am in agreement with. However, you must understand that section 13-2928 and 13-2929 of the immigration bill, it clearly states that it is illegal to hire an illegal alien, and it is illegal for an illegal alien to solicit or perform work under the table. It also states that it is illegal to conceal and/or harbor an illegal alien. In section 23-212 of the bill, it clearly states that "An Employer Shall Not Knowingly Employ An Unauthorized Alien". Yes, one of the main problems contributing to illegal immigration is that greedy companies are openly courting them and using them as wage slaves. This bill actually seeks to solve that problem by making it a crime to hire illegal aliens. You must also understand that not all illegals come here to get work. A large amount of them forge documents to get driver's licenses, welfare, and Arizona's version of state health care, and do not seek or care to seek work. How do I know? I actually live here and see what is going on for real on a daily basis. I don't blame anybody for coming to this country to work and make a better life for themselves. I am TOTALLY in favor of such a thing, I just want it done LEGALLY. I would have to do it legally if I wanted to go to another country to work, and so would you, so why should it be any different when considering America? I don't blame immigrants for wanting to come here to work, I blame immigrants and greedy companies alike for not going through the proper channels and respecting national borders. The bill at least tries to solve the problem by making it illegal to hire an unauthorized alien and for an unauthorized alien to seek work.

[Alan]

Give me one good reason to prefer people to come legally rather than illegally that doesn't equate to a stupid "because!"

[Shadowagony]

Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger

It's easy to present reasons not to do anything, but either you enforce laws or you don't.

And the people of Arizona want the law enforced.

+1 and I am in total agreement. It is very simple. The people of Arizona want something to be done about illegal immigration, and something was done to curb it, or at least attempt to curb it. So many people criticize Arizona, but they don't live here and they don't know what's going on at ground level. The media paints a totally different picture of what is actually occurring down here. It is not people just "seeking a better life", it is organized smuggling rings (both drugs and people), people forging documents to get all kind of benefits that are reserved only for the legal citizens of the country, and a whole ton of other things that the news seems to fail to report. Arizonans are tired of the nonsense and they have decided to act. Now personally, I'm all for immigrants wanting to come here and make a better life for themselves, but for fuck sake, at least respect the laws and borders of my country.

[Shadowagony]

Originally Posted by Alan

Give me one good reason to prefer people to come legally rather than illegally that doesn't equate to a stupid "because!"

If you come to their country you've got to do it legally, so why should it be any different for here?

[Deadmanwalking_05]

Alan/Jillian is Bias as all hell with this subject matter.

Ask him what Happens when Mexico's Border Patrol catches an Illegal Immigrant from their southern border on Mexican Soil...go ahead I'll wait.

[Dama de los Cuervos]

I worked illegally in South America for diddly squat and nobody complained. But not as many gringos are going to do that.

[Shadowagony]

Um, Alan/Jillian, what happens when Mexico's Border Patrol catches an illegal immigrant from their southern border on Mexican soil?

[Alan]

Originally Posted by Shadowagony

Um, Alan/Jillian, what happens when Mexico's Border Patrol catches an illegal immigrant from their southern border on Mexican soil?

The assholes mistreat them and jail them.

Don't listen to that idiot. Anyone with half a brain knows that I'm against all borders. He just has nothing to attack me with, so he literally makes his own shit up.
That's why we ignore him.


But let's go back to you. If you notice, your answer did equate to a "because!"

You're saying that people should come legally because that's what they have to do. That's begging the question.

[Shadowagony]

Originally Posted by Alan

The assholes mistreat them and jail them.

Don't listen to that idiot. Anyone with half a brain knows that I'm against all borders. He just has nothing to attack me with, so he literally makes his own shit up.
That's why we ignore him.


But let's go back to you. If you notice, your answer did equate to a "because!"

You're saying that people should come legally because that's what they have to do. That's begging the question.

I see your point, and I see where you are coming from. My mistake for the stupid "because". I don't really want to get too much further into it, as I'm sure I've pissed off enough people already. Looking at it from the perspective of being against all borders, I can see the fallacy of my own stance. For me, it is just simply a matter of respecting another nation's borders and/or another nation's sovereignty. Taking your perspective into account, I can certainly see how my own reasoning comes off as being that of an asshole's. I respect your viewpoints and I see the merit in your stance. No offence meant to anyone.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by Shadowagony

Capt Stern, You make some very good points that I am in agreement with. However, you must understand that section 13-2928 and 13-2929 of the immigration bill, it clearly states that it is illegal to hire an illegal alien, and it is illegal for an illegal alien to solicit or perform work under the table. It also states that it is illegal to conceal and/or harbor an illegal alien. In section 23-212 of the bill, it clearly states that "An Employer Shall Not Knowingly Employ An Unauthorized Alien".

What are the penalties? A slap on the wrist? A small fine? Look at all of the ICE busts nationwide over the past decade. Companies like Wal-Mart and large corporations that run various factories caught red handed with illegals working everywhere. What happens? They deport the workers and fine the companies what can only be called a small fee. A few months later the illegals are back and it is business as usual.

Thats not discouraging the practice, it is providing a proverbial fig leaf to companies who break the law in efforts to keep them economically viable while satiating the right-wing hate mongers.

The day the government steps in and shuts down a plant or factory, permanently, who is caught with illegals I will say the playing field has been leveled, but in the meantime all they are doing is pandering to the radical elements and allowing the practice to continue, then again, they have no choice as Americans will not work these jobs, so it is either hire illegal or go out of business.

Yes, one of the main problems contributing to illegal immigration is that greedy companies are openly courting them and using them as wage slaves. This bill actually seeks to solve that problem by making it a crime to hire illegal aliens.

So punish the companies with a real punishment, not just frivolous warnings and empty threats. That text above says nothing about penalties. Also, a corporation cannot be held criminally liable, therefore the best one could hope for if a company is caught is a small fine.

You must also understand that not all illegals come here to get work. A large amount of them forge documents to get driver's licenses, welfare, and Arizona's version of state health care, and do not seek or care to seek work. How do I know? I actually live here and see what is going on for real on a daily basis.

Thats a pretty racist statement right there. The numbers show a different story. Mexicans aren't just hopping the border and signing up for welfare. You can't sign up for benefits unless you have a social security number. To say illegals can just go to America and all of a sudden then will get free money, which is why they do it, is insane and shows you have no real clue about this issue.

I don't blame anybody for coming to this country to work and make a better life for themselves. I am TOTALLY in favor of such a thing, I just want it done LEGALLY.

Then why not support the amnesty programme which even McCain support(ed) - providing a path for all current illegals to become legal? That would solve the 'illegal' problem and not single out anyone. To say the ONLY option is to send law enforcement in, a heavy handed right wing solution, is to say all other options have failed before you try them. You have yet to suggest any alternative, therefore I find it hard to believe you when you claim you support anyone who does it 'legally'.

I would have to do it legally if I wanted to go to another country to work, and so would you, so why should it be any different when considering America?

Many countries don't have right-wing hate mongers throwing up road blocks to bar entry to the country. Most countries will let you work if you just show up and ask.

I don't blame immigrants for wanting to come here to work, I blame immigrants and greedy companies alike for not going through the proper channels and respecting national borders. The bill at least tries to solve the problem by making it illegal to hire an unauthorized alien and for an unauthorized alien to seek work.

No, the bill allows companies to get a small fine while attacking the rights of the workers. If you really blamed the companies, then you would not be supporting them by purchasing their products. You would also be able to rattle off the names of companies in Arizona and companies who provide products to Arizona that hire illegals or have a history of doing so. The fact you have never even looked into this (Google it) shows you really have no desire to punish the companies as much as you would like to see Mexicans arrested.

[Ben Lahnger]

Originally Posted by Alan

Give me one good reason to prefer people to come legally rather than illegally that doesn't equate to a stupid "because!"

I'll give you a "because" that you should respect.

Because not all people want the same form of government. And they should have a choice. And that's the argument for having national borders, so that different territories can exist with different forms of government.

If you allow that point, then the rule of law is established under each government to establish and protect those borders. And there is no argument at that point against a country's right to defend those borders.

And that leaves only one issue remaining from my original premise ... if the people should have a choice of government, then how do they choose? Normally, by moving to the country that has the government that most resembles what they want to be governed by.

If that choice is not allowed, either by a country not allowing people to leave (i.e. China) or a country not allowing people to enter, then there is a civil liberties argument to be made against that form of government.

The U.S. DOES allow people to enter, but it's clear the process needs massive reform. The answer is not the breakdown of borders, failure to enforce current immigration law or turning a blind eye to people who have entered the country criminally. The answer is to enforce the law as it exists and work to reform it. And an amnesty program, as part of that legal reform, would be a good, humanitarian idea.

[donmara]

Big business has always wanted undocumented foreigners to labor for them.

I wonder what the economic implications will be.

[donmara]

Big business has always wanted undocumented foreigners to labor for them.

I wonder what the economic implications will be.

[Shadowagony]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

What are the penalties? A slap on the wrist? A small fine? Look at all of the ICE busts nationwide over the past decade. Companies like Wal-Mart and large corporations that run various factories caught red handed with illegals working everywhere. What happens? They deport the workers and fine the companies what can only be called a small fee. A few months later the illegals are back and it is business as usual.

Thats not discouraging the practice, it is providing a proverbial fig leaf to companies who break the law in efforts to keep them economically viable while satiating the right-wing hate mongers.

It's a start. You've got to start somewhere.

The day the government steps in and shuts down a plant or factory, permanently, who is caught with illegals I will say the playing field has been leveled, but in the meantime all they are doing is pandering to the radical elements and allowing the practice to continue, then again, they have no choice as Americans will not work these jobs, so it is either hire illegal or go out of business.

I agree, when the penalties are more severe, then we will see better results and more even playing feild. As I said above, however, you've got to start somewhere. They are not pandering to radical elements, they are taking the first steps in changing the situation. Don't believe the bullshit about Americans not wanting to work those jobs. The truth is, Americans do want to work those jobs, but when an illegal will do it for a mere fraction of what an American will do it for, who do you think is going to get the job?

So punish the companies with a real punishment, not just frivolous warnings and empty threats. That text above says nothing about penalties. Also, a corporation cannot be held criminally liable, therefore the best one could hope for if a company is caught is a small fine.

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly! A lot of these companies treat illegals like dog shit and use them as cheap labor.

Thats a pretty racist statement right there. The numbers show a different story. Mexicans aren't just hopping the border and signing up for welfare. You can't sign up for benefits unless you have a social security number. To say illegals can just go to America and all of a sudden then will get free money, which is why they do it, is insane and shows you have no real clue about this issue.

No, that's not a racist statement. You talk about the numbers - I am talking about what happens on the street level everyday. I live here, do you? I didn't say that ALL Mexicans are just hopping the border and signing up for welfare, I said that there is a sizable amount of illegals forging documents and using connections to get on welfare, get driver's licenses, etc. etc. No, it is not insane - it is part of the reality of the situation. You are trying to tell me that I have no clue, but all you are doing is reading shit off of the internet. I actually live here, interact within the community, and see everything on the street level. You are seriously trying to tell me about what happens in my own backyard?

Then why not support the amnesty programme which even McCain support(ed) - providing a path for all current illegals to become legal? That would solve the 'illegal' problem and not single out anyone. To say the ONLY option is to send law enforcement in, a heavy handed right wing solution, is to say all other options have failed before you try them. You have yet to suggest any alternative, therefore I find it hard to believe you when you claim you support anyone who does it 'legally'.

I'm all in favor of an amnesty program. I didn't say that this bill was the ONLY option, I said that it was inevitable given how crazy the situation has become. I haven't suggested an alternative because the focus of this very thread was on the bill in question, not an alternative.

Many countries don't have right-wing hate mongers throwing up road blocks to bar entry to the country. Most countries will let you work if you just show up and ask.

And if you really believe that then you haven't traveled to many countries outside of your own. Besides, what makes you think that it is all right wing hate mongers who want the borders to be respected? Most everyday people are tired of violence caused by illegals. If you don't believe me, come to Arizona and ask someone for yourself.

No, the bill allows companies to get a small fine while attacking the rights of the workers. If you really blamed the companies, then you would not be supporting them by purchasing their products. You would also be able to rattle off the names of companies in Arizona and companies who provide products to Arizona that hire illegals or have a history of doing so. The fact you have never even looked into this (Google it) shows you really have no desire to punish the companies as much as you would like to see Mexicans arrested.

Complete and utter bullshit. First of all, the bill is a start, not the be all end all of solving the illegal immigration problem. Company names? Try Wal-Mart and other big box stores, as well as smaller stores in strip malls, not to mention your common everyday Joe who openly solicits the help of illegals to do lawn work for pennies on the dollar. You keep saying that I haven't looked into this, but you forget that I actually fucking live here! I see the situation in ways that you don't because I am actually at ground fucking zero. You keep telling me to google, but I don't have to google - I can step right outside of my fucking door and get all of the information that I need - totally unfiltered from the news services. I was downtown at the state capitol when the fucking bill passed and I know how the shit went down. The fact that you think that I just want to see Mexicans arrested is another show of pure ignorance, especially when I clearly stated in previous posts that all illegals, including those from western countries, should be dealt with for ignoring the laws of entry of a sovereign nation. I'm some racist, alright - I only volunteer my time (no wages, no material gain, plenty of satisfaction in helping another human being) to help newly settled immigrants learn english and adjust to life in the country so that they can have an easier time attempting to make a better life.

[Deadmanwalking_05]

Originally Posted by Alan

The assholes mistreat them and jail them.

Don't listen to that idiot. Anyone with half a brain knows that I'm against all borders. He just has nothing to attack me with, so he literally makes his own shit up.
That's why we ignore him.


But let's go back to you. If you notice, your answer did equate to a "because!"

You're saying that people should come legally because that's what they have to do. That's begging the question.

...And Mexico's Border Patrol fucking Kills them.

You ignore what I say when I make a valid point in a discussion.

I haven't heard you say much about Mexico's treatment of Legal and Illegal Immigrants,but you decide to wail and cry with Sternn because Arizona wants the law enforced.