Health Care Reform

[Fastidious]

As a Canadian, I have to look south of the border and ask...WTF????? Why all this controversy over health care reform? I thought Americans WANTED it??

And what the hell is up with pointing to Canada's system as some kind of half-assed, broken debacle of a system? I have had nothing but easy, quick access to health care whenever I needed it and I've paid for none of it. Friends and family who have had more serious medical problems have also been swiftly and inexpensively (often free) taken care of. All this negative propaganda about our system is just that: propaganda. It's simply more fear-mongering by Republicans terrified by the idea of change and progress.

What the hell's goin' on down there? (seriously, any Americans care to fill me in...I'm lost as to why there's so much controversy over this now)

[viscus]

Anti-tax Republicans and "Blue Dog" Democrats, backed by the rich and powerful health insurance and pharmaceutical lobbies. In a word: "money."

[CptSternn]

I think its funny to see the opposition argue AGAINST it.

I mean, there are two huge holes in the anti-campaign -

First, all of Europe, Canada, Australia, Scandinavia, etc. have socialised health care. Every first world country, except America. Most of these countries are currently doing better than America in not only economic terms, but on the WHO list ALL are ranked higher than America as well. The opposition chooses to ignore this and wants to point to 1940's Stalinist Russia as the country they wish to compare the current US health care system to.

Second, the US already provides socialised health care for ALL AMERICAN MILITARY personel. The opposition makes all these broad claims about having the government run things will screw it up, yet the government already manages health care in America for millions. I mean, are the opposition saying the VA is a bad system?

Also, if th government is to be thought of as so inept they can't manage a health care system, then why should they be trusted running wars and dropping bombs? I mean, again the opposition try to make their own government look foolish, yet in the same breath defend the use of the military. If a government can't be trusted to provide health care for its own citizens, then it shouldn't be trusted to use troops in battle or have access to nuclear weapons.

[Joker_in_the_Pack]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

I think its funny to see the opposition argue AGAINST it.

I mean, there are two huge holes in the anti-campaign -

First, all of Europe, Canada, Australia, Scandinavia, etc. have socialised health care. Every first world country, except America. Most of these countries are currently doing better than America in not only economic terms, but on the WHO list ALL are ranked higher than America as well. The opposition chooses to ignore this and wants to point to 1940's Stalinist Russia as the country they wish to compare the current US health care system to.

Second, the US already provides socialised health care for ALL AMERICAN MILITARY personel. The opposition makes all these broad claims about having the government run things will screw it up, yet the government already manages health care in America for millions. I mean, are the opposition saying the VA is a bad system?

Also, if th government is to be thought of as so inept they can't manage a health care system, then why should they be trusted running wars and dropping bombs? I mean, again the opposition try to make their own government look foolish, yet in the same breath defend the use of the military. If a government can't be trusted to provide health care for its own citizens, then it shouldn't be trusted to use troops in battle or have access to nuclear weapons.

This, truth lies here.

As far as the WHO ratings, I think America is tied with Cuba at around 36 or 37.
I know Canada is somewhere in the top 15, France is around 1, England is something like 11 and Ireland is something like 6 or 7 (Woot)

[Knight in Shining Armour]

The VA system is extremely flawed.
Both of my parents are veterans and they choose to use private insurance because the benefits are simply better. I don't know the specifics, because I'm honestly a little bit too lazy to look into it. The VA doesn't have anything to do with me, personally, because I'll never join the military.


I don't trust the government one bit.
Would you trust a government that was screwing you over at every turn?


My biggest issue with health care reform is that the U.S. is in a huge deficit. We cannot afford these things. The first thing we need to do is get out of debt and we aren't going to do that by passing Health Care Reform that will cost us billions of dollars that we simply do not have. I may not have any sort of degree in economics or what not, but I think it's just common sense to say that if you don't have the money don't spend it.

I cannot wait to get out of this country.

[Onyx]

Originally Posted by Knight in Shining Armour

The VA system is extremely flawed.
Both of my parents are veterans and they choose to use private insurance because the benefits are simply better. I don't know the specifics, because I'm honestly a little bit too lazy to look into it. The VA doesn't have anything to do with me, personally, because I'll never join the military.


I don't trust the government one bit.
Would you trust a government that was screwing you over at every turn?


My biggest issue with health care reform is that the U.S. is in a huge deficit. We cannot afford these things. The first thing we need to do is get out of debt and we aren't going to do that by passing Health Care Reform that will cost us billions of dollars that we simply do not have. I may not have any sort of degree in economics or what not, but I think it's just common sense to say that if you don't have the money don't spend it.

I cannot wait to get out of this country.

So the only option is no health care or more debt? I've got an idea, why don't we fix health care and cut the military budget to make up for the cost?
Shit, Congress is trying to force 18 extra F22 fighters, planes that haven't flown a single mission in either Iraq or Afghanistan, that the military says they don't want. These planes cost like $250 million each and the upkeep on them is expensive as hell. I'm sure we could dig through the military budget and find tons of wasted money to use for health care.

[Fastidious]

Originally Posted by Knight in Shining Armour

My biggest issue with health care reform is that the U.S. is in a huge deficit. We cannot afford these things. The first thing we need to do is get out of debt and we aren't going to do that by passing Health Care Reform that will cost us billions of dollars that we simply do not have. I may not have any sort of degree in economics or what not, but I think it's just common sense to say that if you don't have the money don't spend it.

Taxes will definitely have to go up. Look at some of the Scandinavian countries and their ridiculously high taxation. However, for fast free access to health care and free post-secondary education, a few dollars more of my wage per month going to these programs is totally worth it.

I don't know about the U.S., but up here we have pretty high taxes on alcohol, tobacco, and fuel. Cigarettes sell at about $12/pack these days and HALF of that is taxes. I don't smoke, so I don't care, but these sorts of things all contribute to helping pay for things like health care access for everyone. I suppose in the U.S. it's gut-check time. Save some cash individually, or take a broader perspective and everyone makes a small sacrifice for the greater good (and health) of all.

OOOOOOOh, scary, sounds like....socialism! Speaking of which, some of these hard-nosed old-school politicians need to pull their heads out of their asses and admit that there are excellent ideas embedded in systems outside their own nations philosophy. Using these ideas without necessarily "switching sides" is open-minded, smart, and progressive when done with a little care and consideration.

[Fastidious]

Originally Posted by Onyx

So the only option is no health care or more debt? I've got an idea, why don't we fix health care and cut the military budget to make up for the cost?

Ok, and I have to say "Hell yes!" to this as well. The cost of a ridiculous war over the last 8 years should be far more enraging than the cost of a health care system that will directly and significantly benefit the lives of millions of Americans.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Knight in Shining Armour

I don't trust the government one bit.
Would you trust a government that was screwing you over at every turn?

I don't get this. The government doesn't have a say in my care. Well, they do in the sense that they decided a long while back what universal health care would include, and they decide how much to put in the budget each year, but thats it. When I'm sick, I don't have to call a politician or any representative of the government, I simply go to the hospital, give them my MCP card, and then I get taken care of. I don't have to get clearance from my insurance company, I don't have to worry how I'm going to pay it off. I just go in, get what I need done then leave and not have to thing about it again.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Knight in Shining Armour

I may not have any sort of degree in economics or what not

You certainly don't.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by Joker_in_the_Pack

This, truth lies here.

As far as the WHO ratings, I think America is tied with Cuba at around 36 or 37.
I know Canada is somewhere in the top 15, France is around 1, England is something like 11 and Ireland is something like 6 or 7 (Woot)

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

WHO rankings:

Rank Country

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba
40 Brunei
41 New Zealand
42 Bahrain
43 Croatia
44 Qatar
45 Kuwait
46 Barbados
47 Thailand
48 Czech Republic
49 Malaysia
50 Poland

===

1.The US has the most expensive healthcare system in the world. It is almost twice as expensive as every other developed nation. This is largely due to administrative costs which account for 19-25% of healthcare costs, and up to 34% at for-profit hospitals.

2.Other than South Africa, America is the only developed country in the world that does not provide healthcare for all of its citizens.

3.Yet, the US ranks 26th in infant mortality and 24th in the number of healthy years a person can expect to live - putting America’s healthcare system in the company of Cuba and Slovenia rather than Canada and Western European nations.

4.And, despite ludicrous right-wing anecdotal claims of high dissatisfaction among those who live in countries with universal healthcare, the reality is that, with the exception of Italy, Americans are more dissatisfied with their healthcare than are the citizens of every other developed nation, including England, France, Germany, and Canada. Moreover, US doctors spend less time with patients that do doctors in other nations.

http://dll.umaine.edu/ble/U.S.%20HCweb.pdf

http://pub.ucsf.edu/newsservices/releases/200706131/

[Joker_in_the_Pack]

On the plus side, we don't live in poland...

[viscus]

Originally Posted by Knight in Shining Armour

The VA system is extremely flawed.
Both of my parents are veterans and they choose to use private insurance because the benefits are simply better. I don't know the specifics, because I'm honestly a little bit too lazy to look into it. The VA doesn't have anything to do with me, personally, because I'll never join the military.


I don't trust the government one bit.
Would you trust a government that was screwing you over at every turn?


My biggest issue with health care reform is that the U.S. is in a huge deficit. We cannot afford these things. The first thing we need to do is get out of debt and we aren't going to do that by passing Health Care Reform that will cost us billions of dollars that we simply do not have. I may not have any sort of degree in economics or what not, but I think it's just common sense to say that if you don't have the money don't spend it.

I cannot wait to get out of this country.

Check this shit: Socialized medicine, when done right, is actually cheaper than private medicine. Why, you may ask? Sure, you have to pay a bit more in taxes, but there's no more middle man of an insurance company gouging you. That, and the collective bargaining power of the government results in much lower drug prices, so you don't get gouged by the pharmaceutical companies anymore either.

Crazy, isn't it?

[Renatus]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Second, the US already provides socialised health care for ALL AMERICAN MILITARY personel. The opposition makes all these broad claims about having the government run things will screw it up, yet the government already manages health care in America for millions. I mean, are the opposition saying the VA is a bad system?

Actualy tricare(the name of the military healthcare program) is a very frustrating system, dont use it as an example because it will only work against your argument.

[Joker_in_the_Pack]

Yeah, stick to the, "The amount of money we dumped into an idiotic war could have payed for a full free hospital in every city in the country" argument.

[Delkaetre]

When employed and earning more than £X, I pay 20% tax on my income.
My net income is a bit lower. I'm cool with this, as that 20% helps pay for excellent public transport, school till 18 and partial funds for university beyond that, policing (including useful services like lost and found and investigation of actual violent crime, not just the unpleasant stuff you hear about in the media), and makes sure that when I'm unemployed for whatever reason then I get a bit of money each week to help me pay my bills and rent and help me look for a new job.

For my taxes I get a safety net in case of redundancy, physical disability, childbirth, assault, illness or disease, accidents, mental disability and more. I get an education system that's free for all children until they're eighteen. I get a transport system (all our transport is partially subsidised by government) that runs from early in the morning till late at night, often overnight, to nearly every single town and city in the whole of the UK.

I have always paid my taxes. If I'm unlucky and don't get a job, I won't end up homeless- my taxes will be there to look after me. If I am very unlucky and end up severely injured in an accident, my taxes will pay for my hospital care, full rehabilitation and even help for me to get a job again.

And all this works in a place as corrupt, beaurocratic and nepotic as the United Kingdom! Imagine how well it could do in America if your Obama really does manage to give people hope in their system again. Go with the higher taxes, guys. They'll save your life in all sorts of ways.

[vindicatedxjin]

I was watching a documentary the other day on health care laws here in the US in comparison to those of France, Canada and the UK...and I was totally disgusted.... Last winter I came down with a really bad stomach virus and had to go to the ER. All they did was inject me with some pain killers and give me a pregnancy test for the two hours I was in there... It was mandatory that I paid $150 on the spot so I did... a week later I received a bill of $1,800... for painkillers and A PREGNANCY TEST???

[CptSternn]

My son was sick and had to spend four days and nights in the hospital last December. Total cost - €120. Why? Thats the cap on how much a hospital can charge a patient in Ireland.

Socialised medicine rules.

[lelananh]

I was registered at your forum. I have printed the test message. Do not delete, please.




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[Renatus]

Originally Posted by lelananh

I was registered at your forum. I have printed the test message. Do not delete, please.




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Printed our test message? I dont remember there ever being a step that requires printing. But if you really want to get on people's good side from the start, post an intro thread so we can get to know you.

LOL I just noticed the post has a secret hidden ad link, so I just deleted the black text code, same with the other post by that person.

[viscus]

Health Debate Turns Hostile at Town Hall Meetings

So conservative and health care industry groups have taken to busing people across state lines to cause trouble at town hall meetings about health care reform. If that isn't incitement, I don't what is.

I guess the GOP wants to be seen as a crime syndicate.

[alchemie]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

I think its funny to see the opposition argue AGAINST it.

I mean, there are two huge holes in the anti-campaign -

First, all of Europe, Canada, Australia, Scandinavia, etc. have socialised health care. Every first world country, except America. Most of these countries are currently doing better than America in not only economic terms, but on the WHO list ALL are ranked higher than America as well. The opposition chooses to ignore this and wants to point to 1940's Stalinist Russia as the country they wish to compare the current US health care system to.

Second, the US already provides socialised health care for ALL AMERICAN MILITARY personel. The opposition makes all these broad claims about having the government run things will screw it up, yet the government already manages health care in America for millions. I mean, are the opposition saying the VA is a bad system?

Also, if th government is to be thought of as so inept they can't manage a health care system, then why should they be trusted running wars and dropping bombs? I mean, again the opposition try to make their own government look foolish, yet in the same breath defend the use of the military. If a government can't be trusted to provide health care for its own citizens, then it shouldn't be trusted to use troops in battle or have access to nuclear weapons.

What I find funny about still living in America, is the fact that I went to a well known Multiple Sclerosis Clinic in Belgium, had the same care as I did here with a huge, HUGE difference. Here at a Neurologist new patient appointment, it cost me $230. In Belgium, it was only 44 Euros, which equaled out to about 66 with the exchange rate in September of 2007. That explains alot about, "what is wrong with this picture (country)?"

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by viscus

Health Debate Turns Hostile at Town Hall Meetings

So conservative and health care industry groups have taken to busing people across state lines to cause trouble at town hall meetings about health care reform. If that isn't incitement, I don't what is.

I guess the GOP wants to be seen as a crime syndicate.

That was on NBC news last night. The right wing are organising people to 'disrupt' town hall meetings where health care reform is being discussed. Right wing-nuts like limbaugh are telling people to shout and make the meetings unbearable, which is what they are doing.

Not arguing a point or facts, but shouting and yelling to keep everyone else from hearing what the congressmen have to say.

Then there is the new 'nazi' thing the right-wing and faux news are also doing, which again was on NBC. They are claiming Obama is a nazi and trying to implement the same policies hitler did. Thats no joke - that is exactly what they are saying and telling people if they don't stop this health care reform that it is tantamount to letting hilter take over America.

It would be laughable if so many people didn't take it to heart and are out spreading that shite...

[Onyx]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

That was on NBC news last night. The right wing are organising people to 'disrupt' town hall meetings where health care reform is being discussed. Right wing-nuts like limbaugh are telling people to shout and make the meetings unbearable, which is what they are doing.

Not arguing a point or facts, but shouting and yelling to keep everyone else from hearing what the congressmen have to say.

Then there is the new 'nazi' thing the right-wing and faux news are also doing, which again was on NBC. They are claiming Obama is a nazi and trying to implement the same policies hitler did. Thats no joke - that is exactly what they are saying and telling people if they don't stop this health care reform that it is tantamount to letting hilter take over America.

It would be laughable if so many people didn't take it to heart and are out spreading that shite...

Have you seen yet that the right is now saying that if health care reform passes they're going to euthanaise grandma? They're trying to say that there's going to be "death panels" that decide if you're worth spending money on for health care. Funny, I thought that's what we already had with our health insurance companies. With the exception being that no one is worth spending money on so they try and screw you any way they can.

Same thing with all this talk about having a "government bureaucrat" between you and your doctor. Even if that was true, let me weigh that versus what we have now. Government bureaucrat deciding if a treatment is worth the cost or insurance bureaucrat, with it already pre-decided that they don't want to spend the money, trying to find a way to not pay claims? I'll take the government bureaucrat, pretty please.

[HumanePain]

Don't take this as gospel yet, I haven't had time to thoroughly validate "Democrats Abroad", but wanted to share it before the thread goes off course:

"Hello from Vancouver, Canada,
I am a US citizen living in Vancouver, and belong to an organization called
Democrats Abroad. I receive news flashes from it about current issues in
the US. Today I received an excellent overview of the benefits of the
Canadian medical system, as it relates somewhat to the health care
initiative that President Obama is trying to push through Congress. I have
always supported a single payer system such as Canada's, especially for
hugely expensive illnesses like cancer that can bankrupt many Americans.
For example, stem cell transplants for people are exorbitant if
privately paid, and yet necessary for many, despite the risks of failure or
complications involved.
I wish to share an excerpt from the Dems Abroad newsletter today. I could
not have said it better:

*THERE IS A PUBLIC HEALTH CARE OPTION IN EVERY DEVELOPED COUNTRY EXCEPT THE
UNITED STATES. IT’S TIME FOR CHANGE*. Health care is no place for
profit-driven insurance companies, whose goal it is to pay out as little as
possible. This is the way of all insurance companies - who can blame them -
but it should not be the deciding factor in health care, determining who
gets medical attention and who does not, ‘who shall live and who shall die’.

*BENEFITS OF CANADIAN HEALTH CARE SYSTEM**

**It’s less expensive:* It’s well known that Canada spends less of its
budget on health care than the U. S. does, but anti single-payer propaganda
says that Canadians pay more taxes. What they leave out is the chunk of
money Americans pay to their insurance companies. If you add that amount to
taxes you would find that, in sum, Canadians pay less.

*No bureaucracy gets between you and your doctor:* Despite propaganda from
U.S. insurance companies, the Canadian system does not force patients to go
through the government to get to their doctor. In fact, it’s pretty
old-fashioned:* you* choose a doctor and make an appointment, show your
health insurance card, and that’s it. If your doctor thinks you need to see
a specialist or get further tests, he/she does not have to consult an
insurance bureaucrat. If your specialist thinks you need an operation, you
get it – without a stack of forms to fill out.

*It’s user-friendly. *Unlike the U.S. system, you don’t have to fear that
an illness will strike you or a loved one and lead you into bankruptcy.
You don’t have to master the minutiae of co-pays and all of the methods the
insurance companies use to outsmart their clients. Just that lack of stress
is a health benefit in itself.

*Employers:* The pro-insurance propaganda says that most people get health
care through their employers. What about the people who lose their jobs, or
are afraid to quit and try something else? They live in fear. Also, it is
often said that small businesses provide the largest percentage of jobs in
America. Many simply cannot afford health care for their employees.

*Proof that the Canadian system works:* Since l966, when national health
care was voted in – strongly opposed by the Canadian Medical Association -
it has been considered one of the most important benefits of living in
Canada. “Don’t mess with health care” is a message that Canadian politicians
have been getting for over 40 years. Any candidate for national office who
wants a U.S.-style system would lose - no doubt about it. This is not to say
that there’s no room for improvement – even in the best of systems, there’s
room for refinement. And when a system is under-funded or mismanaged, it’s
not going to work as well as it was meant to.

In the U.S., polls show that support for the *public option* is very high -
and growing. When it comes to the most comprehensive and least expensive
(for the national budget and the individual wallet) health care, you just
can’t fool all of the people forever.

Contents written by:
Democrats Abroad
430 S. Capitol Street, SE
Washington, 20003 "