Eugenics

[Drake Dun]

Sounds like fun. It's funny you would mention personal experience, though. My own experience suggests to me strongly that intelligence is mostly genetic. Since we're presumably observing more or less the same phenomena, that means at least one of us is jumping to conclusions. Just goes to show you why it's important to hit serious questions with real science.

[Beneath the Shadows]

Originally Posted by JCC

Are you really this dim? The point is that since intelligence isn't uniformly genetic (I guess I have to explain that this means that intelligent parents sometimes have really fucking stupid kids, and really fucking stupid parents sometimes have intelligent kids, since I can't trust you to understand this, it seems), eugenically engineering intelligence WON'T WORK. It's like taking a person that got a scar from being scolded with hot water, breeding them with someone who wasn't and expecting the child to be half-scarred. Intelligence isn't genetic, you're trying to manufacture something environmental.

How cute, you call me dim. Normally I view you as an intelligent individual, but sometimes you say some outrageously stupid things. It's not your fault, you're young.

The thing is, intelligence does tend to be genetic. The thing is that the method of teaching is not. The most intelligent person can be given a shitty education, and as a result he or she will seem rather dumb. On the other hand, a total idiot can be given an excellent education and still seem rather bright. How smart you appear isn't purely the result of genetics, but genetics does play a major factor in your intelligence.

Let's put it another way: When it comes to education, what ranking is the United States? After answering that, would you say that that ranking is representative of the average student's intelligence, or the education said student gets?

[All Shall Be Judged]

I have no problem with removing genes for certain debilitating illnesses. However messing with traits like intelligence, appearance, et cetera, will simply create a super-race when carried to its logical conclusion.

[Godslayer Jillian]

I know it was bad phrasing, but how is humans becoming super something bad?

[Renatus]

By creating custom genetics we kill off genetic diversity. Human lives should NEVER be bought and sold, otherwise all you have is slavery with a new look.


Also it should be noted that most organizations seeking to cure autism support Eugenics.

Now one thing I have seen that I am not all that against is splicing. This would involve altering your own genetic code by the person's own choice, rather than giving a person no choice in how their genes are altered. But I only agree with this under the stipulation that it does not alter your reproductive genetic code. If you want to see an example of this watch Batman Beyond Episode 1 of season two:Splicers.

[All Shall Be Judged]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

I know it was bad phrasing, but how is humans becoming super something bad?

If it were ALL humans, nothing. As it is, though, whilst perhaps screening for rare genetic disorders could become widely available (at least, to the more affluent inhabitants of First World countries), it's pretty much a given that IF it progressed to the level of eliminating genes such as ugliness or low IQ, you instantly create an underclass.

I know I'm looking at this in terms of eugenics carried to its extreme, but used for purposes which are not medical, the potential for damage is overwhelming.

[gothicusmaximus]

Originally Posted by Renatus

If you want to see an example of this watch Batman Beyond Episode 1 of season two:Splicers.

I've seen that episode of Batman Beyond. There were fucking snake people.

[Mir]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

I know it was bad phrasing, but how is humans becoming super something bad?

Because, if it were to happen, it would only be available to the super rich, and those with power. Equality would cease to exist in terms of scientific tangible. It would widen the rift between the top 1%, and everyone else.

[Renatus]

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

I've seen that episode of Batman Beyond. There were fucking snake people.

That brings up another good thing about splicing, it's reversable, like tattoos and piercings. Which helped alot in helping Terry become human again, as well as in stopping those rouge splicers.

But for example, some people think they're good in the bedroom with their tounge, imagine if they had an actual snake's tounge. Don't tell the "Twilight" fanatics this but Vampires would be a real possibility as well.

All you would have to do is simply splice some genes for the teeth(including the ability to extend and retract them), splice the digestive system to allow the body to digest blood, the skin coloring would be simple. As for the attributes such as super agility, immortality, and rapid regeneration those could all be done as well, though it would take a bit more research. Heck if you wanted to you could even make it possible to transmit the condition through blood, and modify the skin so that it would be vulerable to sunlight.

[Drake Dun]

Unfortuatenly, altering a mature organism is an enormously more difficult task than just tinkering with embryonic stem cells. I don't think we'll see technology like that for a long, long time.

[isobel black]

In principle I believe that stupid people shouldn't be allowed to breed, that the handicapped should be euthanized because they aren't productive members of society, and that we should use criminals instead of animals for medical and product testing.

Luckily I also realise that that is not only completely unethical, but, if it were allowed, would lead to a fucking nazi dystopia. Who will decide who's intelligent enough to breed, who's beneficial enough to be allowed to live, and what crime warrants being used as a test subject (not to mention those innocently convicted)?

Who can stop them when they decide anyone with an IQ below 110 is too stupid, or that the elderly are too much of a burden on society?

No good can come of it, my friends.

[viscus]

Originally Posted by JCC

Bah, nonsense. Admittedly, I've never come across these statistics before, but I have a plan of action in place. I am going to read up on the heritability of IQ, as I was making a conclusion only upon observations, and I will construct a counter-argument so dazzingly brilliant that you and Wikipedia will run tails-between-legs as myself, Pavlov and the rest of the Behaviourism Brigadiers drink pineapple juice from golden chalices. Or I'll admit defeat.

I don't have anything to back me up, but I imagine that the truth is somewhere in between.

[Mealla]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

Eugenics should only go as far as ancient Spartans did. Those who were more 'virtuous' or healthier were encouraged to have more children.

Didn't the Spartans also kill children with any defects?

I see eugenics as morally reprehensible. Intelligence is not a purely genetic factor. Some intelligent children are born to idiot parents, some intelligent parents still give birth to idiot children, and there are a number of conditions that affect a person's physical and mental health and capacity that are not genetically related. Intelligence can also be affected by what kind of education a person receives. Children mentally stimulated at a young age tend to be brighter than children that are not, for example. There are a number of people who have had physical or mental defects that still accomplished great things in their lives.

It is also inevitable that the rich and powerful, the government, or some commercial entity will find a way to control and shape the program as they see fit, so I doubt it would ever exist in an ethical manner if eugenics can be considered ethical at all. While I really don't think some people should be breeding, I don't see it as my place to tell them they can't. If they're idiotic enough, or if their children are idiotic enough, they should hopefully not last very long and will serve to entertain in the form of Darwin Awards. For the ones that survive, well, someone's gotta grill the burgers we buy for lunch and clean our restrooms.

[gothicusmaximus]

Originally Posted by Renatus

That brings up another good thing about splicing, it's reversable, like tattoos and piercings. Which helped alot in helping Terry become human again, as well as in stopping those rouge splicers.

But for example, some people think they're good in the bedroom with their tounge, imagine if they had an actual snake's tounge. Don't tell the "Twilight" fanatics this but Vampires would be a real possibility as well.

All you would have to do is simply splice some genes for the teeth(including the ability to extend and retract them), splice the digestive system to allow the body to digest blood, the skin coloring would be simple. As for the attributes such as super agility, immortality, and rapid regeneration those could all be done as well, though it would take a bit more research. Heck if you wanted to you could even make it possible to transmit the condition through blood, and modify the skin so that it would be vulerable to sunlight.

So wait, why the hell are you in favor of that?

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Mealla

Didn't the Spartans also kill children with any defects?

Yeah, they were WAY into genetics. I didn't mean genetics to that instance, just the former I mentioned, exemplifying it with a culture with that set of values though I don't agree with their methods.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Mir

Because, if it were to happen, it would only be available to the super rich, and those with power. Equality would cease to exist in terms of scientific tangible. It would widen the rift between the top 1%, and everyone else.

Uh.... dude, that doesn't make much sense.
What would the super rich say?
"I want to better the human race, so I give you this money to find the best people available; it will benefit me somehow"
?

[Renatus]

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

So wait, why the hell are you in favor of that?

I said I'm not all that against it, I never said I'm all for it. Splicing is simply the lesser of two evils.

[Beneath the Shadows]

I wish someone would splice me a gene to make me immune to hang-overs...

[Godslayer Jillian]

Hangover is just dehydration.
Just drink a bottle of water before going to sleep. Assuming you're not drunk enough to actually wet yourself, and you have time enough to sleep 7 hours, I've drank over a bottle of tequila with no prob.

[Despanan]

You're supposed to watch Idiocracy and think: "Ha, Ha! This is where we're going " Not "This is where we're going O.O" It's not a documentary people.

[Mealla]

Originally Posted by Mir

Because, if it were to happen, it would only be available to the super rich, and those with power. Equality would cease to exist in terms of scientific tangible. It would widen the rift between the top 1%, and everyone else.

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

Uh.... dude, that doesn't make much sense.
What would the super rich say?
"I want to better the human race, so I give you this money to find the best people available; it will benefit me somehow"
?

Well, it's not necessarily eugenics in the same sense of the discussion here, but this reminds me of a science fiction movie called Gataca. The potential scenario that could occur, as depicted in the movie, is one where the rich can afford to have their children genetically altered in the embryo stage to be more intelligent, disease free, etc., while those who can't afford it have children naturally, and the naturally conceived children are treated as second-class citizens because they are more likely to be a liability. Genetic "perfection" in that particular hypothetical scenario became a commodity.

[Jonathan]

"In the interest of reducing costs for everyone, we regret to inform you that your employer provided healthcare will not be able to cover your dependent children, on the basis that their genetic data indicates an increased risk of certain conditions."

I think it is more important to have good resources in place, and better motivation for people to succeed than to worry about breeding programs. The kid of two highly talented people that work all day, who has lousy teachers for six hours a day, is probably going to end up as a brilliant slacker.

[Mir]

Originally Posted by Mealla

Genetic "perfection" in that particular hypothetical scenario became a commodity.

That was what I meant. I go off on tangents, unintentionally, most of the time.

[Apathy's_Child]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

Uh.... dude, that doesn't make much sense.
What would the super rich say?
"I want to better the human race, so I give you this money to find the best people available; it will benefit me somehow"
?

No - more that only rich parents would be able to afford to genetically engineer their babies, who would then gain advantages which go far beyond growing up in a wealthy family.

[LaBelleDameSansMerci]

Yeah. I don't like eugenics... We're better off without it.