Transgendered Teacher Files Complaint Over Firing

[Saya]

An Edmonton teacher has filed a complaint with the Alberta Human Rights Commission after he was fired by a Catholic school board for telling it he was changing his gender.

Jan Buterman, who worked as a substitute teacher for about six months, was removed from the Greater St. Albert Catholic school board's substitute teacher list last year.

Born as a woman, Buterman is transitioning to become a man and told the school board he had gender identity disorder.

In a letter, Steve Bayus, deputy superintendent of schools for Greater St. Albert, wrote that in discussions with the archbishop of the Edmonton diocese, it was their view that "the teaching of the Catholic Church is that persons cannot change their gender. One's gender is considered what God created us to be."

Bayus said the board, which oversees public Catholic schools in several communities north of Edmonton, purposely hires teaching staff who are "models and witnesses to the teachings of the Catholic Church.

"Since you made a personal choice to change your gender, which is contrary to Catholic teachings, we have had to remove you from the substitute teacher list," Bayus wrote.

"Your gender change is not aligned with the teachings of the church and would create confusion and complexity with students and parents as a model and witness to Catholic faith values."

Bayus notes that Buterman has "served the schools well" as a substitute teacher.

The teachers union has lodged the complaint on Buterman's behalf with the human rights commission.

Buterman is currently out of work and money and living in social housing while he waits for a resolution.

"I do hope that this challenge at least gets Canadians thinking about that," he said.

In 1991, Alberta teacher Delwin Vriend was fired from his job at a Christian college because he was gay.

That case went all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada, where Vriend won.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/edmonton/st...her-fired.html

I didn't know Alberta still had public religious schools, even us Newfies did away with that ten years ago. But from what I can find out since they are a public school system they are entitled to use the name "Catholic" and have religious classes, but they are still subject to human rights laws and cannot discriminate on the basis of religion, particularly when it comes to who to fire and to hire.

[Renatus]

Hmm actually the Catholic church is a bit torn up about this issue. While the Church is United against same sex marrage I've heard differing views on transgendered people, including within my own family.

[Still Jack]

Well, considering it is a catholic institution, I can sort of understand it, wrong though it may be. The Catholics are really into creationism and shit, so modifying your gender through , I assume, surgical intervention , doesn't really fit with creationism...

[SweetJane]

Actually, creationism is the one thing that Catholics aren't into. Having gone through catechism and all that, Vatican II clearly states that there is room for Darwin's theory within Catholic theology because of the doctrines of faith and reason (Thomas Aquinas), and we are also not allowed to prostetlatize the way mormons and others do because it goes against the church's new position of it being immoral to coerce poeple into Catholicism by using poverty and ignorance (we can't offer offer food only to the poor who accept Christ, we have to be charitable to everyone).

Holey mary mother of god I never thought those years of Catechism would come out like this. I'm an atheist now, anyway...

It's a private school, so there's probably not much that can be done. I think private grade schools and high schools are extremely borgeois, and made mostly to discriminate in the first place, especially religious private schools.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by SweetJane

It's a private school, so there's probably not much that can be done. I think private grade schools and high schools are extremely borgeois, and made mostly to discriminate in the first place, especially religious private schools.

Sadly my pet it isn't a private school, its a public school. Some schools in Canada can be technically run by churches while getting public funding, its becoming less and less popular and I thought it was done away with altogether, since you know, it kinda conflicts with seperation of church and state. At least it gives this guy a leg to stand on, in any case it still contradicts human rights laws in Canada.

[Delkaetre]

To the best of my knowledge, the bible doesn't say anything about transgendered people unless you want to read into it very strangely indeed. It is not against any Christian religion, technically, only against tradition.

[Xombie]

Yeah, but the Catholic church doesn't really follow the bible anyway, I don't think.

[Beneath the Shadows]

Originally Posted by Xombie

Yeah, but the Catholic church doesn't really follow the bible anyway, I don't think.

It seems, in this day and age, that there aren't many who do.

[SweetJane]

Originally Posted by Xombie

Yeah, but the Catholic church doesn't really follow the bible anyway, I don't think.

Catholics say in their own catechism that they are a church of faith and reason; they base their beleifs off of a mixture of the bible and tradition.

Fuck public funding for religious schools, then. It also pisses me off that churches, especially in America, are tax-exempt when they are such a tool for the right-wing political machine.

[CptSternn]

Putting religion aside, personally I think the school acted appropriately.

It is way too young to be introducing small children to these ideas. I'm all for supporting transgender rights, but have a bit of cop on - you can't go explaining it to a 4 year old. The subject itself is a bit complex and trying to explain how Mr. Johnson is now Ms. Johnson and of course why is something best left until their pre-teen years.

If he were teaching at a college I would support him fully, but not when your working with little children.

But back to the issue of religion. If you go to work at a religious school then you have to follow their rules. If your entering a Muslim, Christian, or other religious school then you have to know there will be restrictions. When you take the job, or even apply for it you already know in advance what is not acceptable.

It reminds me of the case of the man who applied to be a waitress at Hooters and then sued when they wouldn't hire him.

There are many other schools in Canada I am sure. Why doesn't he go to any of the others and work as a sub there? Ones that have older students and no religious affiliation?

It just seems he is trying to start trouble intentionally, going to a Catholic organisation and telling them he wants to teach their children and is going to have a sex change. What did he expect to happen?

Arguing that it is a publicly funded school is no excuse. If I send my child to a Catholic school it is because I want my child to be taught in a certain environment. Same as if I sent him off to a Muslim or other religiously backed school or institution. The school is bound by their own rules to follow the path which the parents expect them to follow. They have a duty to provide what is expected.

At the end of the day, it's not ALL schools in Canada, or even that district. It's one school that some parents have the OPTION of sending their kids to if they want that style of education. Instead of trying to bring down one of the few remaining institutions which tries to instill a certain level of morality with their education, why not just work at another school?

It's not him vs. the Church, it's yer man vs. the parents who CHOSE to have their child educated in that manner. He is really attacking the parents and their right to have this sort of education.

[Renatus]

Originally Posted by SweetJane

Catholics say in their own catechism that they are a church of faith and reason; they base their beleifs off of a mixture of the bible and tradition.

Fuck public funding for religious schools, then. It also pisses me off that churches, especially in America, are tax-exempt when they are such a tool for the right-wing political machine.

You do know that statistics showed that most Catholics voted for Obama in the 2008 presidential election right? Last I checked Obama wasn't right wing.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Putting religion aside, personally I think the school acted appropriately.

It is way too young to be introducing small children to these ideas. I'm all for supporting transgender rights, but have a bit of cop on - you can't go explaining it to a 4 year old. The subject itself is a bit complex and trying to explain how Mr. Johnson is now Ms. Johnson and of course why is something best left until their pre-teen years.

"Sometimes when a person is born a boy they have the mind of a girl, or if they are born a girl they have a mind of a boy, and they need surgery to become the gender they want to be."

There, so simple a kid can understand it. Why is it so complex? Its not immoral, its a fucking MEDICAL condition, its his own personal body, he doesn't have to lose his job over it just because some people think its gross or immoral.

But back to the issue of religion. If you go to work at a religious school then you have to follow their rules. If your entering a Muslim, Christian, or other religious school then you have to know there will be restrictions. When you take the job, or even apply for it you already know in advance what is not acceptable.

It reminds me of the case of the man who applied to be a waitress at Hooters and then sued when they wouldn't hire him.

There are many other schools in Canada I am sure. Why doesn't he go to any of the others and work as a sub there? Ones that have older students and no religious affiliation?

You actually don't have a hell of a lot of choice where you teach, especially when you're a substitute you can get stuck with a district. And this guy hasn't been able to find work since, its not easy to do so.

It just seems he is trying to start trouble intentionally, going to a Catholic organisation and telling them he wants to teach their children and is going to have a sex change. What did he expect to happen?

Yeah having his rights respected may have been too much. And its not a Catholic organization, but a public government run school district that also happens to be run by religious fuckwads.

Arguing that it is a publicly funded school is no excuse. If I send my child to a Catholic school it is because I want my child to be taught in a certain environment. Same as if I sent him off to a Muslim or other religiously backed school or institution. The school is bound by their own rules to follow the path which the parents expect them to follow. They have a duty to provide what is expected.

Canada has seperation of church and state and this violates this. And secondly, you have no choice if you live in certain areas. I had absolutely no choice but to go to a religious school even though my father was an atheist and my mother Catholic (I had to go to a Protestant school since my father wasn't Catholic), it had nothing to do with what my parents wanted but the inadequacy of our school system.

At the end of the day, it's not ALL schools in Canada, or even that district. It's one school that some parents have the OPTION of sending their kids to if they want that style of education. Instead of trying to bring down one of the few remaining institutions which tries to instill a certain level of morality with their education, why not just work at another school?

It was the district that identified as Catholic, did you read the article or just clutched at your pearls at the audacity of a man daring to have a job as a teacher while also being a transexual? So yeah it was the district and its not easy to leave a district, and a man shouldn't have to leave his home and find work elsewhere because people have a problem with whats hanging between his legs.

It's not him vs. the Church, it's yer man vs. the parents who CHOSE to have their child educated in that manner. He is really attacking the parents and their right to have this sort of education.

Again, there's no choice. You go to public school and get a religious teaching or you fish out the money to send them to private school. Or you move. And the parents voiced no opposition, it was the Arch Bishop who put it in the superintendents head that it was violating God's will.

[SweetJane]

Originally Posted by Renatus

You do know that statistics showed that most Catholics voted for Obama in the 2008 presidential election right? Last I checked Obama wasn't right wing.

Yes, I knew that, the second part of my statement wasn't specifically talking about Catholics. The Catholic church in recent years has become far more progressive than many other denominations of Christianity. Catholics aren't the only one with their own special schools; in the two counties closest to where I live there are two Baptist grade schools, one "non-denominational" Chrisitan highschool, and one other religious kindergarten through junior high.

Last time I checked, Obama is a lot more right wing than I am. What does this have to do with anything?

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by Saya

"Sometimes when a person is born a boy they have the mind of a girl, or if they are born a girl they have a mind of a boy, and they need surgery to become the gender they want to be."

There, so simple a kid can understand it. Why is it so complex? Its not immoral, its a fucking MEDICAL condition, its his own personal body, he doesn't have to lose his job over it just because some people think its gross or immoral.

You obviously do not have any kids. Go trying telling that to the local four year old kids on the playground in your own neighborhood. Watch what happens.

You actually don't have a hell of a lot of choice where you teach, especially when you're a substitute you can get stuck with a district. And this guy hasn't been able to find work since, its not easy to do so.

I call bullshit. We are in a recession. Times are tough everywhere. People have to move for work. We are supposed to think his sexuality is the reason he can't find work? It's obviously not helping, but it shouldn't stop him from working in the next district over. The average commute in California and DC is OVER 1 hour each way. Are you telling me this man is farther than that from any other school?

Yeah having his rights respected may have been too much. And its not a Catholic organization, but a public government run school district that also happens to be run by religious fuckwads.

Your opinion. As a Catholic who is sending his child to a Catholic run school, I like the organisation and the lessons taught there. Who are you to tell me where I can send my child and what my child should learn? If you want your child brought up in an all vegan Hindu school, more power to you. Just don't come to the school I have chosen with your ideals and try and force them down our throats. There, as I have states previously, more schools than just that one in his district I am sure.

Canada has seperation of church and state and this violates this. And secondly, you have no choice if you live in certain areas. I had absolutely no choice but to go to a religious school even though my father was an atheist and my mother Catholic (I had to go to a Protestant school since my father wasn't Catholic), it had nothing to do with what my parents wanted but the inadequacy of our school system.

How exactly does this even compare? As a child you had a choice to go to ANOTHER school, not just the one. Your defeating your own argument. This does not effect the separation of church and state. The school is not trying to use the church for any political means. Many religious organisations get funding from the government.

It was the district that identified as Catholic, did you read the article or just clutched at your pearls at the audacity of a man daring to have a job as a teacher while also being a transexual? So yeah it was the district and its not easy to leave a district, and a man shouldn't have to leave his home and find work elsewhere because people have a problem with whats hanging between his legs.

It's not with whats hanging anywhere. It's about the message your sending to small children.

Again, there's no choice. You go to public school and get a religious teaching or you fish out the money to send them to private school. Or you move. And the parents voiced no opposition, it was the Arch Bishop who put it in the superintendents head that it was violating God's will.

The parents did no have to voice opposition, the school did it for them.

If some person of another culture or religion showed up at my childs Catholic school and tried to have the whole place shut down or force them to stop teaching him in the manner my family choose to have him educated with, I would be very upset. Unless you have a child there, you really don't get a say.

In fact, unless you have a child, you really can't relate to this story at all.

But as I said, if you think the message is so 'simple' try it on on your local neighbors young kids, or your young relatives. Let us know how that goes

[Apathy's_Child]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Putting religion aside, personally I think the school acted appropriately.

It is way too young to be introducing small children to these ideas. I'm all for supporting transgender rights, but have a bit of cop on - you can't go explaining it to a 4 year old. The subject itself is a bit complex and trying to explain how Mr. Johnson is now Ms. Johnson and of course why is something best left until their pre-teen years.

If he were teaching at a college I would support him fully, but not when your working with little children.

You know, without trying to single you out in particular (because a LOT of people seem to feel this way), that reasoning is ridiculously inconsistent. Younger children usually find these things a LOT easier to get their heads around than adults. WHY couldn't they possibly reach a functional understanding of something different without being scarred for life? If you're morally against that thing then it becomes understandable, but if you're really not, what possible reason could you have for keeping it from your children? That's something parents usually do only with very scary or upsetting things.

Once my nephew, who was about five or six at the time,asked his dad why that man on TV was kissing that other man. My brother just told him that when guys grow up some men like to kiss ladies and some like to kiss men. The kid mulled it over for about seconds, pronounced kissing universally stupid anyway, then went back to whatever the fuck he was doing before. No trauma, no confusion.

Now I know that's a small incident compared to explaining why Mr. Teacher is now Mrs. Teacher. However kids are so open to ideas that if Mrs. Teacher actually talked to them, they'd probably get their heads around it pretty fast. I can't help feeling that people who feel there's nothing logically wrong with a certain choice, but that their kids shouldn't be exposed to it at a young age, simply don't want their children seeing something out of the ordinary until they've been fully assimilated into normality - precisely BECAUSE of their receptiveness at a young age.

Sometimes that makes sense. Most people who curse will not allow their five-year-old to do so, because they realize that the kid will wield it like a new toy in inappropriate places. So they allow them to swear only when they're old enough to understand that cursing is not to be done in ALL situations, and keep it to when it's socially appropriate - i.e. when you're with your friends, rather when your teahcer asks you a question during class. Imposition of a normality which a particular act falls outside will ensure that this act, when finally undertaken, will not dominate the kid's behavior, or really even impact it in any significant sense.

I can't help but think that the worst that would happen is that an alternative action will suddenly seem less distant and irrelevant to the kids.

[Joker_in_the_Pack]

Originally Posted by Apathy's_Child

You know, without trying to single you out in particular (because a LOT of people seem to feel this way), that reasoning is ridiculously inconsistent. Younger children usually find these things a LOT easier to get their heads around than adults. WHY couldn't they possibly reach a functional understanding of something different without being scarred for life? If you're morally against that thing then it becomes understandable, but if you're really not, what possible reason could you have for keeping it from your children? That's something parents usually do only with very scary or upsetting things.

Once my nephew, who was about five or six at the time,asked his dad why that man on TV was kissing that other man. My brother just told him that when guys grow up some men like to kiss ladies and some like to kiss men. The kid mulled it over for about seconds, pronounced kissing universally stupid anyway, then went back to whatever the fuck he was doing before. No trauma, no confusion.

Now I know that's a small incident compared to explaining why Mr. Teacher is now Mrs. Teacher. However kids are so open to ideas that if Mrs. Teacher actually talked to them, they'd probably get their heads around it pretty fast. I can't help feeling that people who feel there's nothing logically wrong with a certain choice, but that their kids shouldn't be exposed to it at a young age, simply don't want their children seeing something out of the ordinary until they've been fully assimilated into normality - precisely BECAUSE of their receptiveness at a young age.

Sometimes that makes sense. Most people who curse will not allow their five-year-old to do so, because they realize that the kid will wield it like a new toy in inappropriate places. So they allow them to swear only when they're old enough to understand that cursing is not to be done in ALL situations, and keep it to when it's socially appropriate - i.e. when you're with your friends, rather when your teahcer asks you a question during class. Imposition of a normality which a particular act falls outside will ensure that this act, when finally undertaken, will not dominate the kid's behavior, or really even impact it in any significant sense.

I can't help but think that the worst that would happen is that an alternative action will suddenly seem less distant and irrelevant to the kids.

^ This, definitely this.

Sternn mate, I knew a kid who went to the school my mom works at ( a religious school, mind you). Not only did she know her parents are lesbians, she could discuss it and explain it to other kids.

She was five.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

You obviously do not have any kids. Go trying telling that to the local four year old kids on the playground in your own neighborhood. Watch what happens.

Kids are usually really cool with it. I DO know a transsexual who has kids and her kids took it very well, they were too young to be dogmatic assholes yet I guess.

I call bullshit. We are in a recession. Times are tough everywhere. People have to move for work. We are supposed to think his sexuality is the reason he can't find work? It's obviously not helping, but it shouldn't stop him from working in the next district over. The average commute in California and DC is OVER 1 hour each way. Are you telling me this man is farther than that from any other school?

Its possible, in rural places its hard to get from one place to another.

Your opinion. As a Catholic who is sending his child to a Catholic run school, I like the organisation and the lessons taught there. Who are you to tell me where I can send my child and what my child should learn? If you want your child brought up in an all vegan Hindu school, more power to you. Just don't come to the school I have chosen with your ideals and try and force them down our throats. There, as I have states previously, more schools than just that one in his district I am sure.

Tell me, would you mind if the Catholic run school fired someone because he was black and that would be hard to explain to children? Fire a person who had to have a limb removed because its too hard to explain to children? Fire someone who was in a wheel chair because its too hard to explain to children? No? Why then do you legitimise transphobia?

How exactly does this even compare? As a child you had a choice to go to ANOTHER school, not just the one. Your defeating your own argument. This does not effect the separation of church and state. The school is not trying to use the church for any political means. Many religious organisations get funding from the government.

Its the exact same system they are under, I did NOT have a choice, they wouldn't take me in the Catholic school since I'm not Catholic, and the next Protestant school was over the highway in a 20 minute car ride, so no free bus rides, and just another religious school anyway. The school district IS trying to use the school for political means by saying its wrong to be a transsexual.

It's not with whats hanging anywhere. It's about the message your sending to small children.

It IS whats hanging there, because he will now have a penis he's somehow unfit to teach children. What do small children care which bathroom their teacher uses? What "message"? That there's different people in the world with different needs?

The parents did no have to voice opposition, the school did it for them.

If some person of another culture or religion showed up at my childs Catholic school and tried to have the whole place shut down or force them to stop teaching him in the manner my family choose to have him educated with, I would be very upset. Unless you have a child there, you really don't get a say.

In fact, unless you have a child, you really can't relate to this story at all.

But as I said, if you think the message is so 'simple' try it on on your local neighbors young kids, or your young relatives. Let us know how that goes

As a cisgendered person you can't relate to the transsexual and therefore this story at all. Just because you're a parent and a Catholic doesn't mean you get to violate human rights and discriminate based on gender presentation.

[Solumina]

In all of the case studies that I have looked at (yay human sexuality and gender studies) there has never been a problem with acceptance by children of the new gender, parents are generally fearful of what that kid of exposure would do to their kind and as such try and do things like kick transgendered people out of organizations (even homeowners associations) but never have I seen any indication that the children give it much concern, they just accept it once they have been told what is going on and they go back to whatever they were doing.

[PortraitOfSanity]

My dad's a retired elementary principal, and he had a transgendered 3rd grade teacher at his school for a while. I met her at my dad's retirement party, and she was really cool and very up front about her sexuality. I did ask her about how kids reacted toward her, and like Solumina said, children are almost always in the dark about it or don't care. Ironically, the only people she said ever gave her a problem were the other teachers, who are of course supposed to be a hell of a lot more mature.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by Saya

Kids are usually really cool with it. I DO know a transsexual who has kids and her kids took it very well, they were too young to be dogmatic assholes yet I guess.

Having a discussion on the topic is similar to discussing death. Its a serious subject that needs to be addressed, but unless someone forces this issue, then its best left until they are older so they can fully comprehend the subject matter at hand. The more 'adult' conversations you have with your kid, the less of a 'kid' they are. While you might be able to get them to wrap their heads around an adult topic at a young age, you do so at the risk of robbing them of their childhood.

Tell me, would you mind if the Catholic run school fired someone because he was black and that would be hard to explain to children? Fire a person who had to have a limb removed because its too hard to explain to children? Fire someone who was in a wheel chair because its too hard to explain to children? No? Why then do you legitimise transphobia?

How is any of that relevant? None of the above scenarios involves sexuality.

Its the exact same system they are under, I did NOT have a choice, they wouldn't take me in the Catholic school since I'm not Catholic, and the next Protestant school was over the highway in a 20 minute car ride, so no free bus rides, and just another religious school anyway. The school district IS trying to use the school for political means by saying its wrong to be a transsexual.

The name gives it away - 'Catholic School'. Henceforth you must be Catholic. If you were denied entry into an 'All Boys School' or 'Muslim School' would you still complain? Lets say they did let you attend. Would you not feel singled out not knowing many of the routines you were supposed to have memorised by the point you entered school? Would you also not show the same level of respect to the clergy staff, as if your not Catholic you probably don't have the same reverence towards Nuns, Monks, Priests, etc. Some would say they were doing you a favour by not letting you attend, whether you want to admit it or not.

It IS whats hanging there, because he will now have a penis he's somehow unfit to teach children. What do small children care which bathroom their teacher uses? What "message"? That there's different people in the world with different needs?

It's the message of transgender sexuality. Again, you not having kids and not having to ever sit down and discuss 'grown up' issues with them, you have no frame of reference to compare this to. Have a kid, then come back here and tell us how you explained sex, death, transgender sexuality, and all that other adult stuff too them at age 4. Living in Canada you will be lucky because the government will help pick up the tab for their counciling later in life.

As a cisgendered person you can't relate to the transsexual and therefore this story at all. Just because you're a parent and a Catholic doesn't mean you get to violate human rights and discriminate based on gender presentation.

It's not discriminating if the school is based on certain principle. Again I point out of the case of the man who applied to work as a waitress at Hooters. You can't just apply for a position you are not suited for, then act like someone stepped on your human rights when you are not hired. Lets say this transgender applied to work at the local strip club - do you think they would be hired? Do you think strip clubs should be shut down because they don't have men out there dancing?

How many women work as sanitation collection agents? I know in the states and here in Ireland due to the heavy lifting requirements there are very, very few women who do the job. Same could be said for many other jobs. Doesn't mean women are 'discriminated' against, just means they are not suited for the role. In this situation we are talking about a Catholic School. Not a school, but a Catholic School. Certain things are included with that titled, and only certain people can teach there.

If a stripper or p0rn star wanted to teach there I'm sure they would not be allowed as well. Doesn't mean they are being discriminated against, just means they don't meet the requirements of teaching there.

At lets not forget a big piece of this issue as well - we are talking a 'substitute' teacher. That means at most they might be working a handful of days AT BEST and to date they have probably only worked a HANDFUL of days. This isn't some long time teacher they are feckin out of the place, its a blow in who is making a fuss about nothing. Your telling me a substitute teacher makes a living subbing at ONE SCHOOL? Full time teachers have a hard time making ends meet. Working three or four days A YEAR wouldn't even cover an electric bill for a month. This person must have another full time job, or be working in other districts already. It would seem their motives when battling the Church might be a bit misguided and their goals not as obvious as one might think.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Having a discussion on the topic is similar to discussing death. Its a serious subject that needs to be addressed, but unless someone forces this issue, then its best left until they are older so they can fully comprehend the subject matter at hand. The more 'adult' conversations you have with your kid, the less of a 'kid' they are. While you might be able to get them to wrap their heads around an adult topic at a young age, you do so at the risk of robbing them of their childhood.

Dude, I found out what "gay" meant at age four when Freddie Mercury died. It didn't kill any innocence, kids already know a lot about sexuality on their own and finding out that some people change genders doesn't kill any innocence or damage them for life. I can't believe you're spewing this shit, even after Solumina confirmed that she's never heard of a case where a kid has been damaged with this information.

How is any of that relevant? None of the above scenarios involves sexuality.

Its all stupid discrimination with no basis, and violates human rights.

The name gives it away - 'Catholic School'. Henceforth you must be Catholic. If you were denied entry into an 'All Boys School' or 'Muslim School' would you still complain? Lets say they did let you attend. Would you not feel singled out not knowing many of the routines you were supposed to have memorised by the point you entered school? Would you also not show the same level of respect to the clergy staff, as if your not Catholic you probably don't have the same reverence towards Nuns, Monks, Priests, etc. Some would say they were doing you a favour by not letting you attend, whether you want to admit it or not.

Its not a "Catholic school", it was a public school that only Catholics were allowed to attend. They just went to their Catholic church for the Rememberance Day ceremony and I went to the United Church, thats the only difference in our education, perhaps the religion class. It wasted money maintaining two k-6 schools when one could have easily have accommodated everyone and since they were public schools they should have had seperation of church and state. What I'm refuting was that I had any choice in what school I went to because I didn't, much like kids who go to this Catholic school DISTRICT don't even have another school in the entire district to go to.

It's the message of transgender sexuality. Again, you not having kids and not having to ever sit down and discuss 'grown up' issues with them, you have no frame of reference to compare this to. Have a kid, then come back here and tell us how you explained sex, death, transgender sexuality, and all that other adult stuff too them at age 4. Living in Canada you will be lucky because the government will help pick up the tab for their counciling later in life.

And what pray tell is the message of transgender sexuality? Transgender issues aren't going to scar them for life like the fear of death is, so what does that have to do with DEATH? How do you even know the ages of the school kids? Age 4 kids aren't even in kindergarten yet, thats preschool.

It's not discriminating if the school is based on certain principle. Again I point out of the case of the man who applied to work as a waitress at Hooters. You can't just apply for a position you are not suited for, then act like someone stepped on your human rights when you are not hired. Lets say this transgender applied to work at the local strip club - do you think they would be hired? Do you think strip clubs should be shut down because they don't have men out there dancing?

It is if the school is a PUBLIC school and firing a teacher for no other issue than his gender. I mean, do you think schools should be shut down because instead of a woman teacher they now have a man teacher?

How many women work as sanitation collection agents? I know in the states and here in Ireland due to the heavy lifting requirements there are very, very few women who do the job. Same could be said for many other jobs. Doesn't mean women are 'discriminated' against, just means they are not suited for the role. In this situation we are talking about a Catholic School. Not a school, but a Catholic School. Certain things are included with that titled, and only certain people can teach there.

If a woman is doing a great job at this work and is fired for no other reason than being a woman, then yes it is discrimination, exactly as this man is being discriminated against.

If a stripper or p0rn star wanted to teach there I'm sure they would not be allowed as well. Doesn't mean they are being discriminated against, just means they don't meet the requirements of teaching there.

A transgendered teacher is NOT a stripper, and anyway how the hell would the kids, much less the school board, find out about that?

At lets not forget a big piece of this issue as well - we are talking a 'substitute' teacher. That means at most they might be working a handful of days AT BEST and to date they have probably only worked a HANDFUL of days. This isn't some long time teacher they are feckin out of the place, its a blow in who is making a fuss about nothing. Your telling me a substitute teacher makes a living subbing at ONE SCHOOL? Full time teachers have a hard time making ends meet. Working three or four days A YEAR wouldn't even cover an electric bill for a month. This person must have another full time job, or be working in other districts already. It would seem their motives when battling the Church might be a bit misguided and their goals not as obvious as one might think.

Its not one school you idiot, its an entire DISTRICT. And for fucks sake you just shot down your own argument about explaining it to the kids, since the kids probably wouldn't even fucking notice the name change of a subsitute teacher. And yeah, he has no other job because an entire DISTRICT is pretty good for a substitute teacher.

[Apathy's_Child]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Having a discussion on the topic is similar to discussing death.

Really? Explaining that sometimes men want to be women and women want to be men is akin to kicking them right in the balls with the total annihilation of everything they'll ever know and love?

[quote=CptSternn;571283] Its a serious subject that needs to be addressed, but unless someone forces this issue, then its best left until they are older so they can fully comprehend the subject matter at hand. The more 'adult' conversations you have with your kid, the less of a 'kid' they are. While you might be able to get them to wrap their heads around an adult topic at a young age, you do so at the risk of robbing them of their childhood.

That's not true. You're not hitting them with adult responsibilities or forcing them to become involved in issues they're not ready for, you're just explaining some facts of life. They'll carry on playing when you're done just the same as they were before.

[quote=CptSternn;571283]How is any of that relevant? None of the above scenarios involves sexuality.

Riiiight. So sexuality is the only thing kids might have trouble with. I mean, explaining why their teacher has only one arm is gonna be a breeze in comparison, but that's different, right? I mean, kids need to learn to accept those different from themselves, don't they?

Except in cases involving sexuality & lifestyle. Big no-no, their fragile little heads might implode.

Originally Posted by CptSternn

It's the message of transgender sexuality. Again, you not having kids and not having to ever sit down and discuss 'grown up' issues with them, you have no frame of reference to compare this to. Have a kid, then come back here and tell us how you explained sex, death, transgender sexuality, and all that other adult stuff too them at age 4.

You're right - clearly, not being a parent means you've never had to take care of a kid, talk to one, or answer any tough questions from one.

I have six nephews, three nieces and too many cousins and children of cousins to count. I have spent several hours every week of my life since the age of fifteen taking care of kids, so please stop acting like you're the only one who could possibly know shit about them. Seriously, the reason your argument rests upon, "Well you obviously don't have kids so you wouldn't understand" is not because the posters here haven't been breeding prolifically enough, it's because it's WEAK and based in a prejudice you'd never openly admit to.

[CptSternn]

Saya - You can raise your children however you want. I'll raise mine my way. If you feel so strong about this, then feel free to jump on a bus and go support yer man.

Me? I don't have to support the side I agree with because they did the right thing, and as of now, yer man isn't working there.

Fair play to the school.

And since you appear to be the only one in the world who has an issue with this, then either as I said, hop a bus and head down there and protest.

Apthys Child - So how many discussions on transgenders have you had with your younger siblings of age 4?

I also think its laughable you call me prejudice. I had a few boyfriends in my younger days. I ran a successful primarily gay night club with my two gay partners. We had a weekly Sunday event for drag queens which comprised of many transgendered individuals, of which I am still friends with many (you should see my facebook page). I am the least prejudice person you will ever meet.

But there is proper forum with decorum for all outlets in life. Transgendered issues shouldn't be discusses with 4 year olds. For anyone who believes different, who cares? I give two shits if you believe that or not. Since its a free country you can have your opinion on it as well. Unless anyone is planning on finding yer man and helping his legal bid, then really, your pissing in the wind here bitching at me. I am merely supporting the school and its right to keep certain subjects away from young minds.

[Apathy's_Child]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Apthys Child - So how many discussions on transgenders have you had with your younger siblings of age 4?

To date, none. However since they've respectively managed to accept parental separation, suicide, homosexuality, and drug abuse, I have every confidence in their ability to not be driven into therapy by the idea that sometimes men wish they were ladies and have a big operation to turn into them. That said, you’ve got me curious now – I’ll be seeing most of them on Sunday, so testing that theory will be easy enough.

Originally Posted by CptSternn

I also think its laughable you call me prejudice. I had a few boyfriends in my younger days. I ran a successful primarily gay night club with my two gay partners. We had a weekly Sunday event for drag queens which comprised of many transgendered individuals, of which I am still friends with many (you should see my facebook page). I am the least prejudice person you will ever meet.

Dude. Did you just use the “I’m not racist, I have black friends!” defense?

It doesn’t matter how you feel about this shit in the abstract, Sternn. It doesn’t even matter if you’ve had gay lovers galore yourself. Actions speak louder than words, and you’ve given no convincing argument as to why transsexuality should be treated as an exceptional case, while the same issues don’t apply as with the examples Saya gave – an amputee or black teacher – which could be potentially confusing for some kids. For about five minutes, that is, until someone just tells them very simply what’s going on. The bottom line is that until you can explain WHY you believe sexuality to be exceptional, your actions just look like those of a person who wants their kids kept away from difference until they’re indoctrinated enough to regard it as a mere curiosity.

For once, I’m really not trying to be a dick about this. Obviously it’s possible I’m completely misinterpreting your views, and that they really do spring from nothing more than the belief that a transsexual teacher would confuse the kids. However from what I do know about kids, I would argue that that is at least deeply misguided.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Saya - You can raise your children however you want. I'll raise mine my way. If you feel so strong about this, then feel free to jump on a bus and go support yer man.

Me? I don't have to support the side I agree with because they did the right thing, and as of now, yer man isn't working there.

Fair play to the school.

And since you appear to be the only one in the world who has an issue with this, then either as I said, hop a bus and head down there and protest.

Yeah there's no LGBT groups in Canada who are protesting the transphobia here. Nope, no one cares but one single person in Newfoundland, wonder it got reported at all. Do you listen to yourself?

And yeah, you're entitled to your transphobic opinion, and I'm entitled to argue with it. Really, for a leftist you're pulling all the antics Deadman would pull.