Death to MEGACHURCHES!

[Linen]

Originally Posted by Tumor

Megachurches, like regular churches, should have the right to exist. At the same time, the government should have the right to tax the hell out of them.

Hahaha sooo true about the taxes. They get away with so much shit (churches of ALL beliefs) because of tax breaks... just like corporations! Wait... a minute.... I sense a link there.

[CptSternn]

I posted a link to a topic on this very subject...

http://news.**********/s/ap/20071207..._c3eQh9aus0NUE

Just 2 ministries submit financial data

Only two of six Christian ministries under scrutiny for allegations of opulent spending turned over documents to a Senate panel by a Thursday deadline, with others either fighting the request or asking for more time.

A month ago, Iowa Sen. Chuck Grassley sent pointed questions to a half-dozen high-profile ministries asking about salaries, perks and private jets in a quest to determine whether rules governing tax-exempt groups had been broken.

Grassley, the ranking Republican on the Senate Finance Committee, said in an interview he remains confident he will get the ministries' "full cooperation," despite opposition from some.

Grassley's office said it received a package of material Thursday from representatives of Kenneth and Gloria Copeland, who head a ministry in Texas. Joyce Meyer Ministries of Fenton, Mo., run by the inspirational speaker and author, provided documents earlier this week.

Two other ministers — Georgia megachurch pastors Creflo Dollar and Bishop Eddie Long — have issued statements balking at the request, raising questions about constitutional protections given to churches.

Texas-based faith healer Benny Hinn asked for more time to respond, and Grassley's office said a meeting with Hinn's attorneys is set for Friday. Grassley's office said lawyers for preachers Paula and Randy White of Tampa made initial contact with the senator's office Thursday and gave no indication of a further response.

"We've had more concern from people meeting the deadline, so I've made very clear that if they're cooperating, we'll be flexible, because we want information," Grassley said. "I want and expect full cooperation."

In his previous investigations of nonprofits, Grassley sought and received financial records from groups including the Nature Conservancy, the United Way and the Smithsonian Institution. During his tenure on the committee, Grassley said subpoenas were necessary only twice — in the Enron scandal and Jack Abramoff influence-peddling investigations.

But, unlike secular nonprofits, the IRS does not require churches to make their finances public.

"We've never had any problems, and I expect that in the end we won't have to work hard to get all these folks to cooperate, and I'd be very disappointed if I did," Grassley said.

Attorneys for some of the ministries have said that probing the groups' inner workings amounts to unconstitutional governmental meddling in religion. Grassley has emphasized that he is not investigating doctrine but making sure organizations enjoying the benefits of tax-exempt status are playing by the rules. Grassley dismissed the religious liberty argument.

"Forget it," he said. "They don't have a leg to stand on."

Grassley said that if he had to seek subpoenas, he expects Democrats on the panel to cooperate with him. But Grassley emphasized he didn't think that was necessary at this point.

"I've never had to get a subpoena from a nonprofit organization in the past and I don't expect I'll have to this time," he said. "... All I can say is, I've got a job to do and I've got to do my job."

A spokesman for Long, of New Birth Missionary Baptist Church in Lithonia, Ga., said in a statement Thursday that the senator's request "clearly disregards the privacy protections of the Church under law and appears to cross the line of Constitutional guarantees for churches."

"The Church will fully comply with all laws applicable to churches but will insist upon the preservation of its Constitutional freedoms of religion and Equal Protection under law," the statement said. Grassley's office said it had not received a formal response or material from Long's lawyers before the deadline.

Dollar, an Atlanta-area megachurch preacher, also has refused to answer Grassley's questions. In a letter last week in response to Grassley's demands, Dollar's lawyer asked that the investigation either be referred to the IRS, which would give greater privacy to the churches, or that the Senate committee get a subpoena for the documents.

On referring the whole matter to the IRS, Grassley said Thursday, "I can't tell (the IRS) what to do. I can't refer anything to them unless I know something is wrong. And I won't know if anything's wrong until we get the information."

Hinn also missed the Thursday deadline but has been in touch with Grassley's office and plans to "facilitate a response" by the end of January, a spokesman said in a statement.

The spokesman, Ronn Torossian, declined to say whether Hinn was leaning toward cooperating or fighting the request.

But in a long post about his finances on his Web site, Hinn says that his board of directors is independent and includes no relatives, that he uses the church airplane exclusively for ministry-related travel, and that his U.S. office is audited annually.

Hinn has also posted general financial statements for his work, along with letters from auditors confirming their reviews. But he said his ministry does not make public "itemized annual financials" because "both corporate and ministry financial reports can be manipulated by unscrupulous people with unsavory agendas."

[AngelikDemonik]

Originally Posted by Linen

I agree, Megachurches are ridiculous. Then again, Catholics "borrowed" most of their traditions from Pagans in order to convert them. No religion/sect is without its hypocrites and the self-righteous, but I find the Evangelicals to have a ridiculously high number of these types of people.

We actually learned about that in my Catholic school--The borrowing of Pagan traditions.

[AngelikDemonik]

I'm VERY against the Churchs that claim to heal people, or when people have to pay for the Pastor to "pray for them". Look up Robert Tilton.

A long time ago, there was a church that performed "miracles"--Making the blind see, the mute talk, etc. They paid my cousin Gasper $50 to pretend he couldn't walk; they had the pastor put the "holy ghost through him"; and then he "walked". Yeah...

[Drake Dun]

Originally Posted by AngelikDemonik

We actually learned about that in my Catholic school--The borrowing of Pagan traditions.

I think "co-opting by force of fire and sword" is the expression you're after.

Drake

[Luthian]

I still can't believe that Lakewood Church took over the Compaq center (the summit).

Eh well - it had pretty shitty acoustics anyway.

[AngelikDemonik]

Originally Posted by Drake Dun

I think "co-opting by force of fire and sword" is the expression you're after.

Drake

Forgive me for forgetting my religious histories, but it was either the Muslims or Christians that would put their holy book on the tips of their spears, right before battle, and then chrage at the enemy with said spears.

Nothing like forcing religion with violence!

[CptSternn]

It bothers me only now after all these years are members of congress questioning the business practices of these 'ministers'. They take in millions, pay no tax, and spend everything on things like gold plated air conditioned dog houses and flights for their kids on their private jets to the Caribbean for the weekend.

How exactly is that supposed to be a good use for such funds? Why is it these people pay no taxes if the monies they get they only spend on themselves?

Seems like a scam to me...

[CptSternn]

Another article today that fits right in here...

`Gospel of wealth' facing scrutiny

http://news.**********/s/ap/20071227...7eSUnihHSs0NUE

The message flickered into Cindy Fleenor's living room each night: Be faithful in how you live and how you give, the television preachers said, and God will shower you with material riches.

And so the 53-year-old accountant from the Tampa, Fla., area pledged $500 a year to Joyce Meyer, the evangelist whose frank talk about recovering from childhood sexual abuse was so inspirational. She wrote checks to flamboyant faith healer Benny Hinn and a local preacher-made-good, Paula White.

Only the blessings didn't come. Fleenor ended up borrowing money from friends and payday loan companies just to buy groceries. At first she believed the explanation given on television: Her faith wasn't strong enough.

"I wanted to believe God wanted to do something great with me like he was doing with them," she said. "I'm angry and bitter about it. Right now, I don't watch anyone on TV hardly."

All three of the groups Fleenor supported are among six major Christian television ministries under scrutiny by a senator who is asking questions about the evangelists' lavish spending and possible abuses of their tax-exempt status.

The probe by Sen. Charles Grassley of Iowa, the ranking Republican on the Senate Finance Committee, has brought new scrutiny to the underlying belief that brings in millions of dollars and fills churches from Atlanta to Los Angeles — the "Gospel of Prosperity," or the notion that God wants to bless the faithful with earthly riches.

All six ministries under investigation preach the prosperity gospel to varying degrees.

Proponents call it a biblically sound message of hope. Others say it is a distortion that makes evangelists rich and preys on the vulnerable. They say it has evolved from "it's all right to make money" to it's all right for the pastor to drive a Bentley, live in an oceanside home and travel by private jet.

"More and more people are desperate and grasping at straws and want something that will alleviate their pain or financial crisis," said Michael Palmer, dean of the divinity school at Regent University, founded by Pat Robertson. "It's a growing problem."

The modern-day prosperity movement can largely be traced back to evangelist Oral Roberts' teachings. Roberts' disciples have spread his theology and vocabulary (Roberts and other evangelists, such as Meyer, call their donors "partners.") And several popular prosperity preachers, including some now under investigation, have served on the Oral Roberts University board.

Grassley is asking the ministries for financial records on salaries, spending practices, private jets and other perks. The investigation, coupled with a financial scandal at ORU that forced out Roberts' son and heir, Richard, has some wondering whether the prosperity gospel is facing a day of reckoning.

While few expect the movement to disappear, the scrutiny could force greater financial transparency and oversight in a movement known for secrecy.

Most scholars trace the origins of prosperity theology to E.W. Kenyon, an evangelical pastor from the first half of the 20th century.

But it wasn't until the postwar era — and a pair of evangelists from Tulsa, Okla. — that "health and wealth" theology became a fixture in Pentecostal and charismatic churches.

Oral Roberts and Kenneth Hagin — and later, Kenneth Copeland — trained tens of thousands of evangelists with a message that resonated with an emerging middle class, said David Edwin Harrell Jr., a Roberts biographer. Copeland is among those now being investigated.

"What Oral did was develop a theology that made it OK to prosper," Harrell said. "He let Pentecostals be faithful to the old-time truths their grandparents embraced and be part of the modern world, where they could have good jobs and make money."

The teachings took on various names — "Name It and Claim It," "Word of Faith," the prosperity gospel.

Prosperity preachers say that it isn't all about money — that God's blessings extend to health, relationships and being well-off enough to help others.

They have Bible verses at the ready to make their case. One oft-cited verse, in Paul's Second Epistle to the Corinthians, reads: "Yet for your sakes he became poor, that you by his poverty might become rich."

Critics acknowledge the idea that God wants to bless his followers has a Biblical basis, but say prosperity preachers take verses out of context. The prosperity crowd also fails to acknowledge Biblical accounts that show God doesn't always reward faithful believers, Palmer said.

The Book of Job is a case study in piety unrewarded, and a chapter in the Book of Hebrews includes a litany of believers who were tortured and martyred, Palmer said.

Yet the prosperity gospel continues to draw crowds, particularly lower- and middle-income people who, critics say, have the greatest motivation and the most to lose. The prosperity message is spreading to black churches, attracting elderly people with disposable incomes, and reaching huge churches in Africa and other developing parts of the world.

One of the teaching's attractions is that it doesn't dwell on traditional Christian themes of heaven and hell but on answering pressing concerns of the here and now, said Brian McLaren, a liberal evangelical author and pastor.

But the prosperity gospel, McLaren said, not only preys on the hope of the vulnerable, it puts too much emphasis on individual success and happiness.

"We've pretty much ignored what the Bible says about systemic injustice," he said.

The checks and balances central to Christian denominations are largely lacking in prosperity churches. One of the pastors in the Grassley probe, Bishop Eddie Long of suburban Atlanta, has written that God told him to get rid of the "ungodly governmental structure" of a deacon board.

Some ministers hold up their own wealth as evidence that the teaching works. Atlanta-area pastor Creflo Dollar, who is fighting Grassley's inquiry, owns a Rolls Royce and multimillion-dollar homes and travels in a church-owned Learjet.

In a letter to Grassley, Dollar's attorney calls the prosperity gospel a "deeply held religious belief" grounded in Scripture and therefore a protected religious freedom. Grassley has said his probe is not about theology.

But even some prosperity gospel critics — like the Rev. Adam Hamilton of 15,000-member United Methodist Church of the Resurrection in suburban Kansas City, Mo. — say that the investigation is entering a minefield.

"How do you determine how much money a minister like this is able to make when the basic theology is that wealth is OK?" said Hamilton, an Oral Roberts graduate who later left the charismatic movement. "That gets into theological questions."

There is evidence of change. Joyce Meyer Ministries, for one, enacted financial reforms in recent years, including making audited financial statements public.

Meyer, who has promised to cooperate fully with Grassley, issued a statement emphasizing that a prosperity gospel "that solely equates blessing with financial gain is out of balance and could damage a person's walk with God."

[CptSternn]

This made me shed a tear. No really. :P

Financial Woes Force Church To Sell Private Jet

http://wcco.com/local/living.word.fi....2.656813.html

BROOKLYN PARK, Minn. (AP) ― Dwindling donations to the Living Word Christian Center in Brooklyn Park have prompted its high-profile pastor, Mac Hammond, to put his private business jet on the market.

Church spokesman the Rev. Brian Sullivan says Living Word has also cut its hourlong Sunday morning television broadcast to 30 minutes to save money.

He says the church has fallen $40,000 to $70,000 short of its weekly budget in recent weeks. Sullivan says the church is adjusting its budget accordingly.

Sullivan says the church's problems could be a combination of the recession and the recent bad publicity about churches preaching the "Prosperity Gospel."

The prosperity churches are based on the idea that success in business or personal life is evidence of God's love.

Late last year, the U.S. Senate asked six churches to submit financial documents because of complaints about the lavish lifestyles of their ministers. Hammond was not among them.

Sullivan says the church is aggressively marketing the jet, and that the money raised from the sale would be reinvested in the ministry.


I mean seriously, why does a church in Minnesota need a private Leer jet? Also, $70,000 in donations A WEEK to maintain the jet? With all the homeless and people who can't afford HEAT you would think the church would find a better use for $70,000 a week than a private jet for the pastor...

[Renatus]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

The prosperity churches are based on the idea that success in business or personal life is evidence of God's love.

Hmm and I always thought god hated the actions of Hitler, the devil, drug dealers, big time criminals, and spoiled brats. Eh oh well. "Jesus loves me yes I know cause the bankers tell me so".

[Lapin]

I'm a pagan. Let me make that clear here.

But my family is Irish, and, you guessed it, Catholic. They're not good Catholics, but they're Catholic.

My mother, super special stupid that she is at times, decided to become a Protestant when I was a child. (Unhappy grandmother = not a pretty picture) I believed that all of it was annoying and getting in the way of me reading Harry Potter, and didn't believe and/or care about any of it right from the get go.

The Catholic church doesn't care, is what I've noticed. To them, church and the world are two seperate places.

It's the Protestant church that got on my one last nerve for two years. After they brainwashed my mother, I was dragged to Sunday school and AWANA on Wednesdays. (Church youth group) As a ten-twelve year old, all I wanted to do was read a book and be left alone.

They didn't like that.

I have a knack for memory, so once I'd memorized the stupid verses that meant absolutely nothing to me, I'd try to read. You'd think I killed a bunny at the trouble that caused.

My mother ended up taking away all my books that had to do with fantasy, listening to Christian rock, and not letting me research fortune-telling, which I thought was nifty.

It wasn't until we got away from those crazy people that we stopped going to church and I went back to watching Sailor Moon and reading T*Witches.

They just wouldn't accept that I didn't care about what they thought, or what God supposedly said, or whatever they were on about. I wasn't really listening. But it was a constant barrage of how I wasn't allowed to question, or have my own opinion. It was annoying.

All they did was drive me away from their church. As a result, I think Catholics are nifty, and I can't stand the Protestant church in the slightest. I'm instantly repulsed, like that Clockwork Orange kid and classical music.

Though I find it funny that I actually did become a pagan. Guess it was all those fantasy books. Or that devil music.

[CptSternn]

I'm a happy Catholic.

Sure, we have the occasional scandal, but you don't hear of us preaching war, telling our children to take up arms against other nations because of their culture and ye don't see yer local priest jet-setting around in his private jet that he bought with church funds either.

[Beneath the Shadows]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

...Catholic...but you don't hear of us preaching war...

"I came not to send peace, but a sword." -- Matthew10:34 KJV

[NotLostNow]

I am personally a pagan, it is what seems right for me,
all organized religion has the potential to breed violence, as soon as a leader tells his/her followers that their way is the only way, even if they don't specifically say all others are wrong, it is implied, some of the followers will take the notion of others being wrong to a bad level, it always has happened and always will, there is nothing we can do or say will change it

[Edward]

Originally Posted by Beneath the Shadows

"I came not to send peace, but a sword." -- Matthew10:34 KJV

The Bible is the sword. Says so in the bible. Thats what Matthew means.

Even so, Jesus did not come to bring peace, he came to bring a revolution. He was a radical mind in those times, His followers were prostitutes and tax collectors, thieves and murderers, the scum of the earth, because these were the people who wanted help.

"Two people went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, was praying thus, 'God, I thank you that I am not like other people: thieves, rogues, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give a tenth of all my income.' But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even look up to heaven, but was beating his breast and saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his home justified rather than the other." (Luke 18:10-14a)

No one helped these people, they ignored them.

And to the topic of the super church, I am incredibly hurt by it.

Matthew 21:12 "And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves."

The church is a place of worship, not of business, it should not be glorified, we were told to live in humbleness not a extravagance.

[ionic_angel]

The image of the mega-church and the snake-oil-selling televangelist have become media staples...as has the Lone Goth Gunman, I'd like to point out.

There are many, many Christians who are not followers of the rather perverted false gospels of the Benny Hinns and other "faith healers", "power preachers", or whatnot. These people are condemned not just by people in "normal society", but by other Christians, and by the Bible.

If one reads the Bible, one might note that Christians are instructed to be "wise as serpents and gentle as doves", that one should not "hasten to be rich", and etc. Christianity has never been about how to get material wealth, or how to force others to believe. Indeed, given the doctrine of salvation by faith, one might note that "forcing" someone to convert to Christianity is impossible. Christianity doesn't just prefer that people make their own decisions, it demands it.

And, by the way, while Christianity does have plenty to say about human morality, it's not designed to be used as a book detailing political positions. Justifying war or peace, fossil fuel or alternative, or goth versus normal is not what it is about.

Yesterday I attended church, as i strive to every Sunday, dressed in my typical black. I wasn't rejected, looked at funny, or attacked. For me, my church is a place that I can call home, where I am always welcomed, and where I can commune with fellow believers and our God without crud like "wealth" and "power" getting in the way. It's nice.

[Catch]

You know the only things I don't like about megachurches is that they are cultish and the congregants end up out in the cold.

Congregants are trying to show off and one up eachother to show themself as more devote. So there are tons of misc rules that have nothing to do with the religon.

In Christianity, alcohol is only something to be warmed of, yet congregants treat it as a sin.

Then in Judiahism, the only reason not to eat pork is if you want to live longer, yet you can't touch the pork butt.

So here are two examples. The first one, if you talk to the preacher, they will acknowledge drinking is not a sin. Still don't drink too much.

The progressed Jewish religon has actually excepted an over statement towards a verse into the actual religon.

It is all weird and bent out of shape.

[ionic_angel]

Originally Posted by Catch

So here are two examples. The first one, if you talk to the preacher, they will acknowledge drinking is not a sin. Still don't drink too much.

The progressed Jewish religon has actually excepted an over statement towards a verse into the actual religon.

It is all weird and bent out of shape.

Er...what?

[Catch]

You know, people in the religon not following the religon, then the religon actually changes from the original, until you have this huge made up religon no one likes because it makes enjoying life in an innocent way a sin. However, enjoying life innocently like having a drink, smoke, cupcake or a sunny day isn't a sin at all.

It's all just jerky. The stuff people make up is absurd. I wouldn't want to live either doing all that made up crap or being treated on equal heading for drinking coffee as being a rapist.

Justs messed up, takes all the sting of being punished for sins right out of the quation.

[ionic_angel]

Originally Posted by Catch

You know, people in the religon not following the religon, then the religon actually changes from the original, until you have this huge made up religon no one likes because it makes enjoying life in an innocent way a sin. However, enjoying life innocently like having a drink, smoke, cupcake or a sunny day isn't a sin at all.

It's all just jerky. The stuff people make up is absurd. I wouldn't want to live either doing all that made up crap or being treated on equal heading for drinking coffee as being a rapist.

Justs messed up, takes all the sting of being punished for sins right out of the quation.

Well, I think I agree with you. There seems to be quite a few people (not all Christians, either) who think that drinking is against my faith, despite the fact that Jesus turned water into wine.

Just because people can misuse a substance doesn't mean a substance is bad. I enjoy a cigar or two once a year.

[Catch]

You know for any bible faith based religons, there is a passage in the old testament that states that people should do no more or less than what god has stated in their worship.

Come to think of it Judgement, Gossip and False Testimony are sins.

[Catch]

Come to think of it Judgement, Gossip and False Testimony are sins. So you know making up stuff about other people and arbitrarily judging them is a sin.

(Still there have been car acidents related to drinking and driving. Not following the law of the land also a sin. Still annoyed with judgemental people roaming around making up things about an other person's life without any justification behind their assumptions.)