The abortion thread pt. 2.

[Alan]

You aren't giving any choice to anyone either. If the world fit your ideas on abortion, those who would want to get an abortion couldn't. You're no better here and in fact you're worse because your opinions condemn those who choose something with which you disagree, namely, anyone who isn't a **** victim.

Also, the golden mean is still a goddamn fallacy. If I want ten children and my girlfriend wants none, the correct decision is not to settle for five. That's idiotic.

[Varbane]

Originally Posted by Alan

You aren't giving any choice to anyone either. If the world fit your ideas on abortion, those who would want to get an abortion couldn't. You're no better here and in fact you're worse because your opinions condemn those who choose something with which you disagree, namely, anyone who isn't a **** victim.

Also, the golden mean is still a goddamn fallacy. If I want ten children and my girlfriend wants none, the correct decision is not to settle for five. That's idiotic.

Nope you are out of line on this one. So is just about every one in this thread. All I did was express my opinion on the given issue. Because it didn't fit with what the rest of you think you all twisted my words and put words in my mouth. Instead of asking questions and having a civil conversation. If you go back and read what I posted you will find that I never once said I think abortion across the board is wrong and you guys are going to hell for believing it isn't. Yet this is what you all are cramming down my throat. As a matter of fact if reread what I said in these past few posts you would understand that my opinion falls in the middle. If you where to put away the pitch forks for a moment and let me further explain my stance on the issue you would realize that this should have never turned into what it has in the first place.

I can't say that its right or wrong because there are simply way to many variables to the issue. Yes I do think in some instances it is wrong. But, as like I said in a previous post opinions do change. If you think that I'm wrong tell my why and be civil about it. Who knows, I might just be open-minded enough to see your side.

One thing I am sure of is the fact that I'm not god or the ruler of the world. So even if my stance on the issue was a definitive no, it would still not be up to me in the first place. No one has that right. The only way I think we could move this whole issue forward is to hold a vote in every state and set the state laws according to how the vote turns out.

As for you all going after me on the base that my opinion is politically motivated and that I'm some right wing not job. You couldn't be more wrong. Fact is I hate both the left and right with a passion. This country has pretty much been shit for years regardless of who's in charge. All politics are is mind games meant to distract people from the truth that's right in front of them. Politics is also a mind game used to keep people divided. That's why both sides make such a huge damn deal about social issues in the first place. They count on differing view points creating division between people. And has been working like a charm for years. This thread is pretty much proof of that.

Also when I understand that the right tends to use the idea of personal responsibility as a way to further an agenda. Does the fact that so many people don't take or outright refuse to take any responsibility piss me off? You are right it does. But, its not because some right wing nut job told me so. Remember what I said about opinions being based of life experiences? That's where my opinion comes from:

Growing up it was my mother, younger brother and myself. Add to the that fact that my mother has cancer and it becomes even more harder. We did fight for everything we had and at the age of 10 I became the man of the house. I cooked, cleaned and more or less raised my brother from that point on. Due to the fact that my mom was working two jobs or to sick to do anything. I had more responsibilities at the age of 10 then most people do in a life time.

When my mum did have a man around they always turned out to be a p.o.s. Drug users, drunk and abusive assholes. After a few years of that at the age of 15 I wanted out. So I got a job and moved out. I worked my way through high school then trade school. I have been 100% self sufficient since then. I'm sure you can see why I take issue with people not having self responsibility. Do I expect people to go to the level I do? Nope. Would it be nice to see people in this day and age be a bit more responsible for there actions and try a bit harder? yep.

[Alan]

boohoo, your personal story doesn't mean anything on this thread. You're trying to backpedal here. There are people in this thread with lives worth a Lifetime movie, so you ain't getting any pathos from us.

I never once said I think abortion across the board is wrong and you guys are going to hell for believing it isn't. Yet this is what you all are cramming down my throat.

Bullshit. Why do you cry that we 'aren't listening to you' and then you clearly show you're not even listening to what Saya and I are saying?
We never crammed anything down your throat about you forbidding all abortion. Our problem is precisely the opposite: who are YOU to decide which abortions are acceptable and are not?
Saying that some people deserve rights and some people don't deserve rights doesn't make you a moderate, it makes you a conservative.

Also, speaking of that, I will ask once more: what it this 'middle' you keep talking about when you hypocritically also supposedly oppose the left-right dichotomy?

[CuckooTuli]

But it's not a question of "You can have your opinion and I can have mine" here. They're pointing out the logical inconsistencies in yours. Most notably: a foetus is either of equal value to a human being, or it isn't. If it is, then it follows that abortion even in cases of **** or incest is not morally acceptable (putting a woman's possible state of mind over a human child's life doesn't balance). But if it isn't, then abortion is always acceptable, regardless of the circumstances. You can bluster about your own anecdotal experience as much as you like, but it doesn't change OR challenge the points raised.

[Varbane]

Originally Posted by Alan

Bullshit. Why do you cry that we 'aren't listening to you' and then you clearly show you're not even listening to what Saya and I are saying?
We never crammed anything down your throat about you forbidding all abortion. Our problem is precisely the opposite: who are YOU to decide which abortions are acceptable and are not?
Saying that some people deserve rights and some people don't deserve rights doesn't make you a moderate, it makes you a conservative.

Also, speaking of that, I will ask once more: what it this 'middle' you keep talking about when you hypocritically also supposedly oppose the left-right dichotomy?

So did you not see this:
"One thing I am sure of is the fact that I'm not god or the ruler of the world. So even if my stance on the issue was a definitive no, it would still not be up to me in the first place. No one has that right. The only way I think we could move this whole issue forward is to hold a vote in every state and set the state laws according to how the vote turns out."
Or did you simply ignore that statement?


TO ME THIS IS NOT A LEFT, RIGHT OR EVEN A POLITICAL ISSUE! There I typed it in all caps so you would see it this time.

This is yet another example of not knowing where I'm coming from. Social issues are human issues. Given the fact that changes will effect people across every group one tends to place themselves in. Such things a right, left, Christian, Jewish, White or Black really shouldn't be a factor in this. Because you can't change something like abortion and have it not effect all people. This makes putting the issue up for a state or even nationwide vote the only logical option. Voting might not be perfect, but it's a lot better then simply allowing elected officials to deciding for us.

[CuckooTuli]

But that's another logical inconsistency, no? "NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO DECIDE THIS STUFF, so we should hold votes and let the majority decide what everyone in their area is allowed to do."

[Alan]

Originally Posted by Varbane

So did you not see this:

Oh, you mean the thing you wrote after the criticisms Saya and I wrote last night against you?
No, I didn't read that last night because it didn't exist last night, so your whining about me and Saya 'cramming stuff down your throat' can't possibly account for that. That would be just stupid.

Also, stop ignoring Cuckoo.

[Varbane]

Originally Posted by CuckooTuli

But that's another logical inconsistency, no? "NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO DECIDE THIS STUFF, so we should hold votes and let the majority decide what everyone in their area is allowed to do."

Or we could continue to have this issue in a state of limbo like it has been for years. This could be one of those issues that simply is never going to be solved. There might not be a right course of action. People are going to be angry no matter what the out come is. So it might be a good idea to let sleeping dogs lie as the old saying goes.

I must admit part of the reason I'd want to put it to vote is to more or less put a nail in the coffin so to speak. To me we have way more pressing and major issues that keep getting pushed aside to make room for such issues as illegal immigration and abortion. Issues like all these dirty wars our government is dragging us into and the fact that the banks/corporate have way to much power over our government should be at the forefront of any political conservation. Those are the kind of issues that are dragging this country down.

Its like you and your lover standing in the living room arguing about who was the last to take the dog out when your house is on fire. The fact that the dog made a mess on the floor isn't going to matter much when your house is a pile ashes is it?

[Alan]

If there had been a referendum on the Civil Rights Act when it was enacted, it would have been repealed.
Rights are not negotiable.

[Varbane]

Originally Posted by Saya

So you'd tell me I'm a slut and deserve to be burdened with children I didn't want and I'm a cunt for having an abortion, but you'd still feed me if I'm hungry and poor? Wow, you're a saint.

No on both points. It wouldn't be my place to even inquire about such a thing as your sex life. If I did I'd fully expect you to slap and I wouldn't even be pissed if you did. Because I would have it coming. Truth be told even is such a topic was brought up by you, I'd try to change the subject. Because to me it still be none of my business. We would have to be friends for a few years and pretty close friends at that before such a conversation would seem right to have.

[Versus]

Well, of course civil rights isn't going to be very important to him. Varbane is a Cracker Von Patriarch and already has all of his rights. Anybody else is just whining about frivolous shit.

It's pretty fucking simple, really. Either you feel that a fetus is equal to a person or you don't. If you DO feel they are the same, then what you basically just said, Varbane, is that not only is murder is okay in certain circumstances, but you are comfortable with genocide like never seen before in human history, as long as it takes place in another state.

Oh. By the by.

Originally Posted by Saya

Plus, the Bible says nothing about abortion, but it does say that if a woman is attacked by a man and miscarries, he has to pay a fine but its not a murder, so no eye for an eye. He only dies if the mother also dies. I know a lot of anti-choicers like to use a passage where God talks about knowing the person while they were still in the womb, but he's talking to a particular person and how that singular, particular person was a favourite because God specifically had plans for him before he was born, so it seems to say God doesn't have that kind of affection for most people.

Actually, most protestant evangelicals didn't give two shits about abortion until the 80s. It was seen as a Catholic problem and besides, scripture doesn't seem to support it. But when evangelicals fell in more with the right wing government, was feeling sad about itself after the movements of the sixties and seventies (civil rights, women's rights, gay rights, etc), attacking abortion became politically convenient and part of the backlash against women's liberation.

Also, I don't think its the literalists who think an exception should be made for **** and incest, like Santorum they have the idea that we should make lemons out of lemonade. I think it comes from people who want to punish sluts, rather than people who couldn't help it.

[CuckooTuli]

Originally Posted by Varbane

Or we could continue to have this issue in a state of limbo like it has been for years. This could be one of those issues that simply is never going to be solved. There might not be a right course of action. People are going to be angry no matter what the out come is. So it might be a good idea to let sleeping dogs lie as the old saying goes.

Thing is though, that saying means "Don't start shit from nothing". I wouldn't call the raging debate surrounding an issue that has a momentous effect on the lives of those involved nothing. Those dogs you're talking about aren't sleeping, they're straining and yapping and blowing up clinics and having their lives ruined by lack of access to abortion. The fact that they can't agree isn't a reason to wash our hands of the whole affair.

If you never really thought about this stuff all that much and are defensive about having your views questioned, that makes you... human. It's cool. But there's no call to get angry when people who DO think a lot about this stuff point out the flaws in your argument. It's nothing personal. But this stuff does matter to a lot of people, so saying we should "let sleeping dogs lie" is moot.

Also:

Originally Posted by Alan

If there had been a referendum on the Civil Rights Act when it was enacted, it would have been repealed.
Rights are not negotiable.

This. Very much this.

[CuckooTuli]

Originally Posted by Varbane

TO ME THIS IS NOT A LEFT, RIGHT OR EVEN A POLITICAL ISSUE! There I typed it in all caps so you would see it this time.

Everything is political. If you think you don't have an agenda, all that means is you're following someone else's. Every aspect of your life is influenced by the dialogue and social mechanisms around you, even, as Saya pointed out, the domestic/"private" sphere - and even if you think you 'don't really follow politics'.

"One fish said, "The water's lovely today."

Another replied, "What water?""

If you think politics don't permeate your life and opinions, you're the second fish.

[Versus]

You know, Cuckoo, I've always admired that you can calmly articulate something in the face of this. I have a tendency to get livid and go all caps locks and what I want to say gets lost in my anger.

[CuckooTuli]

To be honest, it's mostly because I can actually remember being similar in my approach to many issues myself, and it's not as long ago as I'd like to pretend. I can remember thinking that I 'wasn't really into politics', and pitying those who suffer under its tyranny abstractly, from a distance, because it didn't really have anything to do with me. I can even remember saying "That's so gay" to gay friends, then arguing with them when they told me it wasn't cool, on the basis that "language is fluid and anyway, you know I didn't really MEAN it THAT way..."

I now find this shit abhorrent, but I don't think that being something of a dick about it necessarily makes you a bad person (even if it's INFURIATING from the other end), because the mainstream in the west is pretty much dedicated to enabling the delusion that Bad Shit happens to Other People, and more importantly, that it's not Your Problem. We're taught pretty much from birth to feel ten feet tall for dropping a quid into a collection box now and again, while our feelings of "Well I didn't do anything wrong so why is [X group] mad at ME", are completely validated and reinforced by the culture around us. The resulting removal of heads from arses is difficult for this reason; like all forms of brainwashing, that shit can take years to undo. I guess I like to think that if there was hope for me, logic isn't always a lost cause.

I am the privilege-whisperer... but not for reasons I'm particularly proud of.

I appreciate the compliment though. Ex-dickhole or not, I'm a shameless whore for such things.

EDIT: also, anger is good and natural, and if I sound Zen about this one, it's probably because it's never affected me or anyone close to me. You should see my Facebook; my wall reads like the howling of a banshee most of the time.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Varbane

No on both points. It wouldn't be my place to even inquire about such a thing as your sex life. If I did I'd fully expect you to slap and I wouldn't even be pissed if you did. Because I would have it coming. Truth be told even is such a topic was brought up by you, I'd try to change the subject. Because to me it still be none of my business. We would have to be friends for a few years and pretty close friends at that before such a conversation would seem right to have.

And HOLD THE FUCK ON. You'd be willing to acuse a woman for being irresponsible when she wants an abortion, and then PUNISH her when she does get one or tries to, but talking about it to her face is off limits? What the flying fuck is wrong with you? How the fuck are you going to understand her oppression if you avoid talking about it because it makes you uncomfortable?

Must be fucking nice to just walk away and ignore it, you piece of shit. Maybe that's what those women who die because they try to get a back alley abortion should do; just not talk about it and focus on more important things like capitalism.

[Versus]

I understand that, Cuckoo. I can't speak for everyone, but I know I used to be like that in some ways, and still am in a lot of others. I'm actually guilty of hetero-splaining in that same instance you used as an example. Recently, even. You could even look in the personhood thread that Ape Decendant started and see that a lot of my argument was similiar to Varbane's, minus the bible thumping ignorant bullshit he tries to fall back on.

In that sense I can see where a lot of people get their arguments, but understanding that in the face of all of this crap doesn't really mean anything to me. It's not even to say that I feel particularly bad about it. The way I see it, my anger and frustration and immediate hostility is justified when I have to explain it until I'm blue in the face because some fuckhead thinks it's cool to patronize me for a fucking hour like I just don't get it or I'm just doing something wrong or it's only my mindset.

[Versus]

MEANWHILE

[Varbane]

Verus you know hardly anything about me. Yet you seem to think you have me figured out. Its pretty clear that any attempt I make to have some sort of civil conversation with you is only going to further provoke such attacks by you. So I'm going to end this here. I also hope you are smart enough to understand that not every one is going to see the world the way you do. Because no they are not going to.

[Grausamkeit]

Originally Posted by Varbane

We like to think everything is cut and dry, yes or no and such. As much as people like to think issues can be that clearly defined, they never truly are. Why? There is always a grey area. That is the reason why humans have been debating issues like abortion for years with no side truly winning. Its also the reason there will never be a clear winner. You gather 100 people that are for it, I can gather 100 people that are against it and we can go in circles over and over with no clear winner if you want. But, that would be a huge waste of time.

The grey area is brought about through the human ability to think for our self's. And as we all know thinking for our self is one of the things that make us human. If you truly want abortion to be banned or available for everyone in every country and one side of the issue to be the norm you are going to have to strip people of there ability to think for themselves. And in doing so you will be stripping those people that don't agree with you with a large part if not all of there humanity.

Opinions on issues like this are more or less a persons grey area. Even if your opinion seem 100% identical there will always be a grey area. You might not see it but its always there. This is even more true when you factor in the truth that opinions change and can be changed by life experiences.

More or less you are a living grey area, just like every other human walking this earth. Is it a bad thing? Hell no, its what makes us Human. You can disagree with me on issues such as abortion all you want and I'd still go out of my way to feed you if you where hungry and had no food.

Giving women the right to have dominion over their own bodies only takes away the right of men to tell a woman what she can and can't do with her body.

OH NOEZ!! Dem terrbul feminists! Dey should just submit to the natural order and let the menfolk and church decide what happens unless they want to run around being irresponsible whores!

Silly little wimminz...

[Varbane]

Originally Posted by CuckooTuli

If you never really thought about this stuff all that much and are defensive about having your views questioned, that makes you... human. It's cool. But there's no call to get angry when people who DO think a lot about this stuff point out the flaws in your argument. It's nothing personal. But this stuff does matter to a lot of people, so saying we should "let sleeping dogs lie" is moot.

I would be fine if people where simply pointing out flaws in my view. But, some of the things that where thrown at my where just people being rude and disrespectful:

Originally Posted by Versus

Well, of course civil rights isn't going to be very important to him. Varbane is a Cracker Von Patriarch and already has all of his rights. Anybody else is just whining about frivolous shit.

It's pretty fucking simple, really. Either you feel that a fetus is equal to a person or you don't. If you DO feel they are the same, then what you basically just said, Varbane, is that not only is murder is okay in certain circumstances, but you are comfortable with genocide like never seen before in human history, as long as it takes place in another state.

Originally Posted by Saya

So you'd tell me I'm a slut and deserve to be burdened with children I didn't want and I'm a cunt for having an abortion, but you'd still feed me if I'm hungry and poor? Wow, you're a saint.

Originally Posted by Alan

Bullshit. You answered the same way virtually every single conservative answers. That's no middle. It's well into the right, which clearly shows the political spectrum serves a purpose because otherwise you'd try to weasel yourself out and pretend that a) the golden mean isn't a fallacy, and b) your opinion even falls into the golden mean.

There is more but I pretty sure I made my point. And its posts like that that put me on the defense in the first place. I would happily engage in a civil conversation. But this conversation has been anything but civil.

I'll be the first to admit this is an issue I have not given much though. So this would have been a great time for those that have been a good time for the people quoted above to have a civil conversation about the issue. Even when I came out and said that's what I was looking for and didn't attack people right back I still caught flak from people and still am. Hell I'm still open to having one. But, I don't see that happening.

[ThoughtsFromtheRabbitHole]

Dear Varbane, trying to become a victim still does not address the point on hand. Your “middle" stance on abortion was deconstructed by Versus and Saya a couple of post ago. Your bias that abortions under certain circumstances are wrong clearly states your opinion, but this whole idea has already been acknowledged.

Abortion is a political topic because people make it so. Look at the recent news:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1684283.html
Want abortion out of politics, tell your elected officials to stop putting the topic up for discussion, but until then, it is a political issue.


Saying that abortions kill lives is very shallow as life can have many forms. Plants are living, but they do not feel pain. Until a fetus develops its thalamus, it will not feel pain, but rather have unconscious senses. These are two completely different things. Fleshly cut meat can still twitch, but it does not mean it is alive by biological standards, as it is not digesting anything. A cell is alive, but we do cry murder to anyone that bleeds or shreds skin. Abortion is truly a debate between a mother's ability to decide conceive a child. Therefore, the only sides are anti-choice or pro-choice. Anti-abortion and pro-abortion activist are both in the anti-choice department. Saying that abortion should only be allowed under certain circumstances means that you are anti-choice, but will allow people to make choices for special circumstances. This is not a "grey area". It means that you want to take away the choice to have an abortion for a certain population based on standards you have employed for people who should not have a choice. This in itself is bullshit as you destroy a natural right to a certain group.

[Varbane]

Well, there is another point to this that I have not given much though. Given the fact that I am a male and do not have a significant other considering an abortion . I don't have much to base my opinion on or much of a direct connection to the issue. This is also a fight that I clearly don't want to get in the middle of. So from now on my opinion on abortion is as fallows. Do as you wish, just leave me out of it. If the time comes where I have more of a direct connection to this issue I'll decide on what side of the fence I sit on.

Also I don't see why people are still getting worked up over me and what I said. I'm one of millions of people currently living in the US. Given that and scope of the issue one person hardly matters in the grand scheme of things.

[Grausamkeit]

Martin Luther King was only one person...

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Varbane

Well, there is another point to this that I have not given much though. Given the fact that I am a male and do not have a significant other considering an abortion . I don't have much to base my opinion on or much of a direct connection to the issue. This is also a fight that I clearly don't want to get in the middle of. So from now on my opinion on abortion is as fallows. Do as you wish, just leave me out of it. If the time comes where I have more of a direct connection to this issue I'll decide on what side of the fence I sit on.

Also I don't see why people are still getting worked up over me and what I said. I'm one of millions of people currently living in the US. Given that and scope of the issue one person hardly matters in the grand scheme of things.

Really? Because we had no idea that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.