Sophie Lancaster Court Case News - "Goth clothes 'promted killing'".

[Edward Strange]

Sorry if this is elsewhere, I had a quick nose around the news section and couldn't find it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/l...re/7291985.stm

A 15-year-old boy kicked and stamped to death a woman because she was dressed as a Goth, a court heard.

The drunk teenager was among a gang of five who "savagely and mercilessly" attacked Sophie Lancaster, 20, and her boyfriend, Preston Crown Court heard.

Miss Lancaster was begging the gang to stop beating Robert Maltby, 21, when they turned on her in Stubbylee Park in Bacup, Lancashire, the jury was told.

The 15-year-old, who cannot be named because of his age, denies murder.

At an earlier hearing a 16-year-old boy, who was aged 15 at the time of the attack, admitted Miss Lancaster's murder and admitted attacking Mr Maltby.

The accused, and four other youths, two aged 17 and one 16, have already pleaded guilty to grievous bodily harm to Mr Maltby.

The court heard Miss Lancaster's facial injuries were so severe, paramedics did not know what sex she was.

Tests indicated she had been kicked and stamped to death, with the pattern of some footwear still on her head.

Miss Lancaster, a gap-year student, died two weeks after the attack.

"It would appear that [they] were singled out, not for anything they had said or done, but because they dressed differently to the defendant and his friend."
Michael Shorrock QC, Prosecuting

Prosecuting, Michael Shorrock QC told the court the young couple, from Bacup, were walking home from a friend's house when they "fell into conversation" with a group of teenagers.

The talk was friendly and good-natured, the court heard, but five of a group of youths "turned" on Mr Maltby.

The accused had started the violence, with a flying kick to the head of Mr Maltby, the jury was told.

The gang, "encouraging each other and laughing" punched, stamped and jumped on his head until he was unconscious, Mr Shorrock said.

As Miss Lancaster kneeled down, cradling her boyfriend's head on her lap and calling for help, the accused and the then 15-year-old youth who has already pleaded guilty to murder, turned on her.

The second boy kicked her in the head, with the accused joining in, the court heard.

Paramedics found the couple lying side by side, covered in blood and unconscious.

Mr Shorrock said the gang had turned on the young couple simply because they were Goths or "moshers" and dressed differently to them.

Mr Maltby survived the attack in August last year but has not made a full recovery. He has no memory of the incident.

Mr Shorrock said the five, none of whom can be named, were "acting like a pack of wild animals".

"The attack was totally unprovoked.

"It would appear that Mr Maltby and Miss Lancaster were singled out, not for anything they had said or done, but because they dressed differently to the defendant and his friend," he said.

The case continues.

Apologies for any typos.

[Disposable_Icon]

Wow..... o_____o

I... I have no idea what to say..... this is simply outrageous. Whatever punishment these children receive will be far too good for them.

[ForgetThisLostLenore]

That is just awful. Things like that completely destroy my faith in the theory of good in some human beings. Why would anyone do such a thing, just because someone looked different? It just completely baffles me.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Is this something new? I could have sworn we have already talked about this.

[ionic_angel]

Well, there was the "girl with collar"/bus driver thing.

[Edward Strange]

More...
(Note, this one may be a bit upsetting, so not one for the faint of heart, unless you happen to enjoy listening to 999 calls that is).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/l...re/7292869.stm

The jury in the trial of a teenage boy accused of kicking a woman to death has been played a 999 call from a witness begging for an ambulance.

The call, lasting about 13 minutes, was made near the end of the attack on Sophie Lancaster and Robert Maltby in Bacup, Lancashire, last year.

Sobbing and crying throughout, the tape played to Preston Crown Court begins with the girl detailing the attack.

"We need, we need an ambulance at Bacup Park, this mosher's just been banged because he's a mosher. We need an ambulance at Bacup Park quick on the skate park."

As the operator asks for the address she adds, "It's a mosher just been banged for no reason.

"Yeah we need an ambulance because he's lying on the floor not even breathing. I don't even know him but he's just been battered and it's horrible."

In the background two of the girl's male friends can be heard trying to stop the attack.

One can be heard shouting "get off him", while the other describes Mr Maltby as being "practically dead".

The girl continues: "Everyone is still on him, but don't tell 'em I'm on the phone to you right now."

"His girlfriend is on the floor as well. They're still breathing but they are full of blood. Please just send an ambulance quick.

"She's choking on her blood, please will you help us quick."

Despite pleading for help, the girl is then heard asking if she will get in trouble for reporting the attack.

She says: "I'm not going to get done for reporting this am I? Because all the Bacup lot will hate me because I've reported it."

The operator, struggling to calm the girl down, tells her and her two friends to check if the victims are breathing.

Calling to her friends, the girl is heard saying: "Oi, are they breathing? Are they breathing?

She tells the operator: "Just about they said. Just about, they are both just about breathing...they've both got their eyes closed."

The operator then tells the girl to try to stem the blood with something so she takes her t-shirt off and orders her friends to do the same.

Girl: "Oi, just take your T-shirts off and put it over the bleeding. Just help em for f****s sake."

After the operator asks if this has helped, she replied: "No, it's all over their hands, all coming out of their eyes, all out their nose and everything. Please just help us quick, please, please."

The girl then tells the operator Mr Maltby is being sick and she is told to put them both in the recovery position.

She adds: "They're just laid there with blood all over their face, they can't even move, they just look like dummies."

Once again, the case continues.

We have talked about the Sophie Lancaster case before when it originally happened last year, this is just an update on how the case is proceeding.

[Edward Strange]

Whoops, left it a bit too late to edit.
Anyway, here is *even* more news.

Video update from the BBC (might need Realplayer to watch).
If you can't watch it, it's basically a very brief summary of the incident, response, the 5 teenagers charged and the various charging decisions in relation to them.

One, a 16 year old I believe has pleaded guilty to the murder of Miss Lancaster and the assault of Mr Maltby.
Two 17 year olds and a 16 year olds have pleaded guilty to the assault of Mr Maltby and a decision was taken by the Crown Prosecution Service not to pursue a charge for murder for these three, effectively dropping the charge for them.
Finally, the last defendant, a 15 year old still faces a murder charge for the death of Miss Lancaster and has already pleaded guilty to the assault of Mr Maltby.
Due to their ages, under English law none of their names can be released.

The trial was due to start today (Wednesday the 12th of March) and is expected to last some three weeks.

(Apologies if any of this is mentioned above, clearly I'm not paying enough attention).

I'll try to keep everyone updated.

[Jaye Jang]

Thanks for the update. I keep hoping justice will be done for these two, but it looks pretty dismal at this point.

[CSSLZT13]

Oh my bloody, undead God...

Apart from the whole, "Oh, the humanity!" issue, it really is disturbing how often a case like this appears. Makes me wonder just how far us Cro-Magnons have evolved from the Neanderthals...

[Tam Li Hua]

Ok, after seeing her picture, I'm pretty sure this is an update for the same case that happened some time ago.

For a moment, I thought it was a new incident. x_x;;;

Not that that makes this one okay, of course.

As far as my thoughts on the issue...the fact is, Goth or not, people are naturally offended by those radically different from them. The degree to which one expresses these offenses, however, should NEVER lead to this kind of violence..

[ionic_angel]

I don't think all people are naturally offended. My first reaction is usually bemused curiosity.

[Dark Clarissa]

The disgusting result of the court case will just be a few years locked up for those responsible and they'll probably be out well before they've hit 30. They'll have the rest of their lives to enjoy - but they've taken someone elses. The justice system in this country is shite. It makes me so angry.

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by ionic_angel

I don't think all people are naturally offended. My first reaction is usually bemused curiosity.

Well, granted, I didn't mean that all people are offended by something different, but most people are at least cautious of something radically different than what they are used to.

But, like I said, that doesn't justify being violent towards someone whom you don't fully understand; humans should endeavor to be more civilized than that.

To Clarissa: What, in your eyes, would be a justifiable punishment for them?

[Dark Clarissa]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

Well, granted, I didn't mean that all people are offended by something different, but most people are at least cautious of something radically different than what they are used to.

But, like I said, that doesn't justify being violent towards someone whom you don't fully understand; humans should endeavor to be more civilized than that.

To Clarissa: What, in your eyes, would be a justifiable punishment for them?

They, in effect, tortured two human beings and took one life. At the very least they should be kept locked up away from society forever - they gave up their right to exist in civilised society the minute they decided to stamp on that girl's head until she had blood coming out of her eyes.

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by Dark Clarissa

They, in effect, tortured two human beings and took one life. At the very least they should be kept locked up away from society forever - they gave up their right to exist in civilised society the minute they decided to stamp on that girl's head until she had blood coming out of her eyes.

I very much agree.

[CptSternn]

We do have a few threads on this in this very forum - check down a few pages.

https://www.gothic.net/boards/showthread.php?t=6911

That being said, it amazes me (in this thread and the other) how people get upset and bothered when this happens to one person, but not another.

I mean, 1,400+ civilians were killed in Afghanistan last year. Tens of thousands have been killed in Iraq. Thousands have been held without charge and tortured. Yet, only when it happens to someone who wears the same clothes and has similar likes and dislikes to people bother to post how they are outraged.

It's kind of ironic really. These people were targeted because they dressed different. People here feel bad for them. At the same time many people who are upset by this aren't upset at similar atrocities happening on a much larger level to other people because they don't dress like us.

I'm not saying this is a reflection on anyone, just pointing out that atrocities only 'hit home' when people can directly relate to them. No one here can really say they know how it feels to be an Iraqi pulled off the street and shipped to Gitmo, nor will they ever have to fear such injustice in their life. A case like this though, people can see themselves, their friends, or even a family member being subject to this type of abuse.

People need to be aware that this sort of thing is unacceptable across the board and should not be tolerated by any civilised society.

[Dark Clarissa]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

...

I'm not saying this is a reflection on anyone, just pointing out that atrocities only 'hit home' when people can directly relate to them. No one here can really say they know how it feels to be an Iraqi pulled off the street and shipped to Gitmo, nor will they ever have to fear such injustice in their life. A case like this though, people can see themselves, their friends, or even a family member being subject to this type of abuse.

People need to be aware that this sort of thing is unacceptable across the board and should not be tolerated by any civilised society.

That is so true. It is so easy to get anesthetised against the regular images on the news from Iraq, Afganistan and many other countries, because it does seem so far removed from what we understand in our day to day lives. It should still outrage us, but very often we are just numb. We shouldn't be.

[Tam Li Hua]

Capt., I don't think anyone was saying that it was okay in any sense of the word.

People are going to care more if they can directly relate to the situation. For instance, the story of this girl makes me a little sad, but it doesn't rip me to shreds. By comparison, losing a parent 2 years ago just about incapacitated me, even though she didn't die at the hands of someone else.

Yes, humans are harsh to each other, but if we were deeply grieved and ripped apart over every single horrid thing humans do, then we wouldn't be able to get up in the mornings and face the day, much less have the energy to protest such things. [Well, at least, most of us wouldn't.]

I should be clear: This doesn't mean that I don't think something should be done about Bush and the evil he has perpetuated in the name of my country. What it -does- mean, however, is that, naturally, humans are more liable to be upset about the people they care about than they are about complete strangers; that's just the way we're built, and it's not a good or bad thing.

[Edward Strange]

Just to clear up any confusion, there has already been lengthy discussion about the terrible business surrounding Mr. Maltby and Miss Lancaster when it originally happened last year.

However, the court case for that has just started. Hope that clears up any confusion!

My ten pence as to this argument, you are quite right that it is hardly fair (for want of a better word) to give this one case precedence over any other case just because the attacked couple were goths. Godness knows, murder happens every day globally, surely we should be just as sickened and give as much attention to those as well?

However, we're all only human and you are also correct in that we can directly relate to this and feel a great deal of solidarity for the victims.
Also this is a forum for the Goth subculture so, as unethical as it may be, it's where Goth related knews should go. It might not be the news in question is especially noteworthy, it's just that it has to do with the subculture to some degree.
And this is the case here, which is not to say this attack is not newsworthy, please don't think that for a moment! The only reason this particular case takes precedence is because it relates to the subculture.

I must be sounding terribly heartless, so I do apologise! A terrible thing has happened and terrible things happen every day.

And and and...

Well, I ramble. I hope someone could make some sense out of that!

Also, while three of the defendants are not being tried for murder, they are still being tried for the assault of Mr. Maltby. Under English law, GBH (and GBH with intent) can both carry the same sentences for murder, which is to say 'life' imprisonment depending on the case, the judge and the jury, but the potential is there.

[Delkaetre]

Thank you for updating us, Edward. I haven't been using the Whitby Forums terribly much recently, so I haven't been keeping myself as up-to-date as I should.
For those of you who are interested, there is a memorial bench for Sophie at Whitby- it was erected just before Christmas. The plaque on it reads "Sophie Lancaster: An Angel Too Soon". It is located near the whalebones, by the grand hotel, and looks out to sea across the harbour. A very fine view, an excellent place to just sit and think for a little while. There will be an official dedication ceremony for it at this April's Whitby Gothic Weekend, though I'm not certain which day it's on. I think it's most likely to be Saturday or Sunday morning. I believe there will be a collection for the S.O.P.H.I.E. (Stamp Out Prejudice, Hate and Intolerance Everywhere) campaign at it, but I cannot tell you that for sure.
I must say, I'm not encouraged by the fact that further charges have been dropped against the other boys who admitted to the assault on Rob Maltby. They should at least be tried as accomplices, their savagery most certainly precipitated the attack on Sophie even if they didn't kick her as hard as the two boys on trial from the 12th did.
I don't like the idea of these incredibly vicious young thugs running loose- I desperately hope to see them given realistic and heavy sentences without a chance of early release.


By-the-by, Sternn- no one is saying what happened in the Middle East is acceptable. But there are plenty of threads devoted to that and the myriad facets of it already- including the fact that it's not because they look different, it's a wholly different issue. It's because of religious, cultural, ideological and economic differences, despite your comment about "similar atrocities happening on a much larger level to other people because they don't dress like us". It's not because of how they dress. It's because of just about goddamn everything else, and please don't try to equate this local tragedy to that distant and large scale one.
We do feel strongly. You don't need to remind us of it.
Frankly, posting that up in this thread feels almost like an attempt to guilt-trip us for paying this so much attention, even though this kind of violence is likely to affect us very directly rather than indirectly as in Iraq. Of course, that may not have been your intention. It is always possible that extended study of examples of vicious attacks on my subculture of choice may be making me a little paranoid.

[Wormboy]

Originally Posted by ionic_angel

I don't think all people are naturally offended. My first reaction is usually bemused curiosity.

Much the same as my reaction, sometimes if the person looks just weird enough, my feeling is that of a warm endearment towards my fellow oddity.

[Alethea]

Offended or not, harming another person is never the proper or right thing to do. I get so angry when people take things into their own hands by pressing issues like religious protests, such as the ones of the Iraq solders coming back in a casket with protesters at the funerals with signs saying 'Thank God for dead soldiers'. I mean, if they truly think it's the wrong thing, leave it to thier god. If that's what they believe then shouldn't it be up to god to punish them? Off topic...blah.

Anyways, this is just saddening and sick. I mean, they're so young and still so pressed with the ability to kill due to how someone looks?! I mean this is supposed to be todays youth, and here they are killing people for being different. Whatever happened to tolerence? Or not judging a book by its cover?

Same here though. When I see something most people avoid I tend to be struck with a desire to poke at it and learn more about it. I guess its like when others look strangly at me or avoid me due to looks/appearence. I don't want to miss out on something good just because its different, or, in my case, the same. ^-^

[chelseagirl]

Stern is right though about things like this affecting us (humans in general, not just "goths") when there is some aspect that makes it "hit close to home". I'm appalled at the death and destruction in in Iraq also, but this case does emotionally affect me more so...because I could easily see what happened to Sophie happening to me.

I'm sure Sophie's story has affected a lot of people in the goth/alternative scene not JUST because she was "one of us", but also because so many of us has experienced situations wherein we've been assaulted because of the way we look. We look at what happened to Sophie, and we think, "holy crap, what if instead of being spit on/had objects thrown at me by that gang of kids, they had beaten me to death".

I personally have been spit on, I've had glass bottles thrown at me, I've had my eye split open by gangs of kids "stoning" me with rocks. I've been called names, and told I was going to be gang r@ped and robbed. I was very scared during each one of the confrontations. When I think about what happened to Sophie, I think of how one day something more extreme could happen to me.

Also, another thing that appalls me about what happened to Sophie is the fact that a gang of BOYS beat a GIRL like that. It just seems inconceivable. I mean, in day to day life a gang of boys "jumping" or "banking" a lone boy is not a rare occurrance in the least; nor is a gang of girls beating up one long girl. Heck, I was jumped and beaten up by 6 girls when I was in highschool.

BUT, the thought of boys savagely beating a girl like that, like it was a "cool" thing to do...it's crazy! When I was a teenager, a boy hitting a girl was disgraceful....a cowardly, shameful thing to do. It was not tolerated. Now-a-days, it seems like it's "cool" for boys to do it.

When did the attitudes about male on female violence change so much? What caused this change in attitude?

[chelseagirl]

Stern's post made me think of Marilyn Manson's lyrics in Fight Song:

"the death of one is a tragedy - but the death of millions is just a statistic"


Now, I don't have much admiration for Manson (although I do like a few of his songs), but there is an innate truth in those lyrics as to how humans, in general, react to things like this. It's like...when such a large magnitude of loss of life/tragedy happens, such as what is happening in Iraq, is just too much for our brains to handle, and we end up desensitizing ourselves to it.

[Wormboy]

Originally Posted by chelseagirl

Stern's post made me think of Marilyn Manson's lyrics in Fight Song:

"the death of one is a tragedy - but the death of millions is just a statistic"


Now, I don't have much admiration for Manson (although I do like a few of his songs), but there is an innate truth in those lyrics as to how humans, in general, react to things like this. It's like...when such a large magnitude of loss of life/tragedy happens, such as what is happening in Iraq, is just too much for our brains to handle, and we end up desensitizing ourselves to it.

You know that's a Joseph Stalin quote right?