Pro-Gun Anti-Gun.

[Stabby]

Or they could pass a law that requires all weapons to be completely pink... Let's see a gangster act hard with a pink 9mm.

[Deadmanwalking_05]

Originally Posted by Duane

When people like you realize that losing a bit of leather, 10 bucks, and credit cards that you can cancel is better than killing someone and being sent to jail for life, the better the world will be.

And when will dumb ass kids like you realize that sometimes people want more than money,and that's why people like me will defend ourselves and property to the death.

Plus history has shown crime happens less when the thugs figure out their lives aren't worth what may or may not be in the wallet of a potentially armed victim.

People like me don't cause problems,people like me solve problems.

[Deadmanwalking_05]

Originally Posted by Stabby

Or they could pass a law that requires all weapons to be completely pink... Let's see a gangster act hard with a pink 9mm.

I thought about picking up one of the pink gripped S&W Model 638's (Just for the hell of it).

I would rather the thug be armed with a brick bat because of regardless of the color under your proposal,the bastard would still be armed with a 9mm.

[Stabby]

Originally Posted by Mir

Chicks with guns are hot!%%$$!!

This is honestly the best and truest sentence in this entire thread...

[Stabby]

Originally Posted by Deadmanwalking_05

I would rather the thug be armed with a brick bat because of regardless of the color under your proposal,the bastard would still be armed with a 9mm.

This is true. At least guns would be used less for intimidation purposes...


Honestly, one of my biggest reasons for being pro-gun is that its a wonderful sport. There's nothing like spending a day out at the range and the process of firing is extremely calming.

The biggest reason I am pro-carry of firearms is that I go to Northern Illinois University. Although I wasn't in the room, I was on campus when the shooting happened. If some asshole wants to go on a rampage and kill people he can do it with whatever tool he wants. If you look at (this list of spree killers) you'll notice that Walter Seifert of Germany killed 10 people with an improvised flamethrower and a lance. It took the police in Dekalb 2 minutes to get to the scene. In that time if the perpetrator had even made Molotov's he would have killed more than the 5 he did. What is the government going to do then? Ban gasoline and glass bottles? If even 2 people in that auditorium had been carrying concealed weapons and they saw Mr. Kazmierczak with a shotgun they would have reacted. Even if they all they did was force him into cover he would have done a lot less damage and the police would have been able to take over from there. At worst they would have sacrificed themselves to allow the other students more time to get out of the doors because he would have had to focus on them.

[Still Jack]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdJGcrUk2eE

I'm with Chris Rock on the Gun Control Issue.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Deadmanwalking_05

People like me don't cause problems,people like me solve problems.

That's the most laughable thing you have ever said. And that's saying a lot.

[Stabby]

Originally Posted by Still Jack

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdJGcrUk2eE

I'm with Chris Rock on the Gun Control Issue.

But that ruins target shooting Q.Q

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by Stabby

Or they could pass a law that requires all weapons to be completely pink... Let's see a gangster act hard with a pink 9mm.

I think they would.

[Deadmanwalking_05]

Originally Posted by Stabby

But that ruins target shooting Q.Q

The prices on ammo are running pretty high right now.

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by Duane

When people like you realize that losing a bit of leather, 10 bucks, and credit cards that you can cancel is better than killing someone and being sent to jail for life, the better the world will be.

I tend to agree. Nothing material that I can think of is worth losing your life...or someone else's...over.

Deadman, sometimes you're a seriously scary dude.

[Tam Li Hua]

I agree with Ophie. Pink would be the new black. Or...something.

[emeraldlonewoulf]

nothing material IS worth losing your life. that's just the thing, the thug could knock you off simply because you can now identify him, and doesn't think he will get caught. If you are not in a position to defend yourself, or are in a corner and can't run, you can end up forfeiting your life because the thug is the one in control of the situation.

on the other front, ammo IS going up, and there are starting to be shortages in different places. It seems like half the time I go to buy ammo ( about every two weeks), Walmart is out of everything but 12 gauge shotgun shells and occasional box of some less common rifle caliber, like 45-70 or something. You have people lining up right before they stock the shelves. it is a crazy thing when you have to go to three different places before you can find a brick of .22, or a box of 9mm.

In fact, my buddies and I have switched to .22 for training purposes, because of ammo prices. One of them got a Walther P22 for pistol practice, and I got an almost new ruger 10-22 for rifle practice. It has cut down on our use of other calibers, because of the cost. You don't want to fire off that last 200 rounds of 9mm or 30-06 or 8mm, you might not be able to get any more soon.

[Onyx]

Great, conceal and carry. Then they just start coming up from behind with a baseball bat, possibly causing life ending injury. If you want to defend yourself then learn to fight. Even if they come up from the front, they're not going to scream give me your wallet from half way down the street. They're going to be right on you before you know you need the gun. At that point the range advantage is gone and more than likely you just gave a gun and your wallet to what WAS an unarmed criminal.

I love how pro-gun people talk though. Shooting someone point blank isn't the same as shooting a target. If you seriously needed to use that gun are you sure you'd be able to? If not you probably just lost your wallet, the gun and your life. Good job.

[emeraldlonewoulf]

You are right. shooting a person is nothing like shooting a target. I sincerely hope I never have to. I have seen gunshot wounds up close. They aren't pretty. But in a situation where I feel my life is threatened I will take any advantage I can get. I choose to make the effort to survive.

That is one of the reasons I train with my weapons, so I am familiar with them. When i shoot, that pistol is an extension of my hand. I can tell when it is loaded, chambered or on safe by the feel and the weight of it.

Responsibility is paramount. If you aren't familiar with how your weapon operates, able to hit moving targets, shoot in low light, and can't get to it quickly, you have no business carrying it. keep it in your closet or trunk unless you are at the range. When you develop proficiency, that is another matter.

I realize guns aren't for everyone. But don't block those of us who have put in the time, effort and money to obtain weapons and train in their use from doing so legally. I explained my views on that above. the more restrictions you put in place, the less of the public will be proficient, and the more criminals will strive to obtain access, knowing their victims are less and less likely to fight back.

[Onyx]

Originally Posted by emeraldlonewoulf

You are right. shooting a person is nothing like shooting a target. I sincerely hope I never have to. I have seen gunshot wounds up close. They aren't pretty. But in a situation where I feel my life is threatened I will take any advantage I can get. I choose to make the effort to survive.

Well, taking the fact that you said you sincerely hope you never have to shoot someone, then I guess it is safe to assume you never have. In that case, you're making a big leap of faith that you'd be ABLE to pull the f'ing trigger. Taking a life isn't something most people can do. Also, have you taken into account the psychological effects on you of killing someone? Unless you're one cold hearted SOB it's something that will haunt you for the rest of your life.

If you want an advantage then, like I said before, learn to fight. Spend less time on the range and more time in the gym/dojo learning to defend yourself with the one set of weapons you always have on you and can not be easily taken away from you. Given a close range match between your holstered gun and my minimal martial arts training, I'll take my martial arts training.

[Stabby]

Originally Posted by Deadmanwalking_05

The prices on ammo are running pretty high right now.

This is true... but you can still have fun with .22s for like 5 dollars an outing (im including targeting)

Originally Posted by emeraldlonewoulf

It seems like half the time I go to buy ammo ( about every two weeks), Walmart is out of everything but 12 gauge shotgun shells and occasional box of some less common rifle caliber, like 45-70 or something.

Aren't they're any indoor ranges in your area? My range I go to usually has full stocks of everything except 10MM (they don't stock it often and it sells out from time to time)

Originally Posted by Onyx

Great, conceal and carry. Then they just start coming up from behind with a baseball bat, possibly causing life ending injury. If you want to defend yourself then learn to fight. Even if they come up from the front, they're not going to scream give me your wallet from half way down the street. They're going to be right on you before you know you need the gun. At that point the range advantage is gone and more than likely you just gave a gun and your wallet to what WAS an unarmed criminal.

I love how pro-gun people talk though. Shooting someone point blank isn't the same as shooting a target. If you seriously needed to use that gun are you sure you'd be able to? If not you probably just lost your wallet, the gun and your life. Good job.

Originally Posted by Onyx

Well, taking the fact that you said you sincerely hope you never have to shoot someone, then I guess it is safe to assume you never have. In that case, you're making a big leap of faith that you'd be ABLE to pull the f'ing trigger. Taking a life isn't something most people can do. Also, have you taken into account the psychological effects on you of killing someone? Unless you're one cold hearted SOB it's something that will haunt you for the rest of your life.

If you want an advantage then, like I said before, learn to fight. Spend less time on the range and more time in the gym/dojo learning to defend yourself with the one set of weapons you always have on you and can not be easily taken away from you. Given a close range match between your holstered gun and my minimal martial arts training, I'll take my martial arts training.

I'm responding to both to prevent redundancy:
You can ask anyone who's ever been in a fight; Martial arts do practically nothing. Even if you frequently spar you're still used to fighting opponents who play fair, but in a fight you will not have that luxury. There are a select few that can be used in some forms effectively. Akkido for one can be useful if you only take parts of it. In reality though it won't make a difference. But no one is going to try to rob you if they are unarmed. Most wont rob you if they have a knife it's too easy to run from someone with a knife. If they have a gun you're screwed. If you have a gun you are on at least equal ground. In fact, you are probably on better ground. Anyone who concealed carries has to be prepared to kill someone. The person who is there to rob you is only prepared to take your money. I would honestly have no problem killing someone who was threatening me. The minute he resorts to crime in my mind he is a worthless human being. Nothing more than a blood sucking leech who is taking money from people he thinks he can pick on. I have a much higher respect for the deer that I hunt. Even if it did haunt me or bother me it would be a small price to pay from protecting me from harm (not to mention any of his other victims).

[Stabby]

Also, Imagine if Kitty Genovese had a firearm. She would have lived. You can't rely on other people to protect you.

If you aren't familiar with the case here is some information:

Genovese had driven home in the late night of March 13, 1964. Arriving home at about 3:15 a.m. and parking about 100 feet (30 m) from her apartment's door, she was approached by Winston Moseley, a business machine operator. Moseley ran after her and quickly overtook her, stabbing her twice in the back. Genovese screamed, "Oh my God, he stabbed me! Help me!" It was heard by several neighbors, but on a cold night with the windows closed, only a few of them recognized the sound as a cry for help. When one of the neighbors shouted at the attacker, "Let that girl alone!", Moseley ran away and Genovese slowly made her way toward her own apartment around the end of the building. She was seriously injured, but now out of view of those few who may have had reason to believe she was in need of help.

Records of the earliest calls to police are unclear and were certainly not given a high priority by the police. One witness said his father called police after the initial attack and reported that a woman was "beat up, but got up and was staggering around."

Other witnesses observed Moseley enter his car and drive away, only to return ten minutes later. In his car, he changed his hat to a wide-rimmed one to shadow his face. He systematically searched the parking lot, train station, and small apartment complex, ultimately finding Genovese, who was lying, barely conscious, in a hallway at the back of the building, where a locked doorway had prevented her from entering the building. Out of view of the street and of those who may have heard or seen any sign of the original attack, he proceeded to further attack her, stabbing her several more times. Knife wounds in her hands suggested that she attempted to defend herself from him. While she lay dying, he ***** her. He stole about $49 from her and left her dying in the hallway. The attacks spanned approximately half an hour.

A few minutes after the final attack a witness, Karl Ross, called the police. Police and medical personnel arrived within minutes of Ross' call. Genovese was taken away by ambulance and died en route to the hospital. Later investigation by police and prosecutors revealed that approximately a dozen (but almost certainly not the 38 cited in the Times article) individuals nearby had heard or observed portions of the attack, though none could have seen or been aware of the entire incident. Only one witness, Joseph Fink, was aware she was stabbed in the first attack, and only Karl Ross was aware of it in the second attack. Many were entirely unaware that an assault or homicide was in progress; some thought that what they saw or heard was a lovers' quarrel or a drunken brawl or a group of friends leaving the bar outside when Moseley first approached Genovese.

[Deadmanwalking_05]

I remember when a bulk pack of Federal 550 could be had for $8.50.

The last time I bought .22 ammo at Wally World the total cost for 500 was $22.00 (My my how things have changed since the summer of '98 ).

[Deadmanwalking_05]

Originally Posted by Onyx

Well, taking the fact that you said you sincerely hope you never have to shoot someone, then I guess it is safe to assume you never have. In that case, you're making a big leap of faith that you'd be ABLE to pull the f'ing trigger. Taking a life isn't something most people can do. Also, have you taken into account the psychological effects on you of killing someone? Unless you're one cold hearted SOB it's something that will haunt you for the rest of your life.

If you want an advantage then, like I said before, learn to fight. Spend less time on the range and more time in the gym/dojo learning to defend yourself with the one set of weapons you always have on you and can not be easily taken away from you. Given a close range match between your holstered gun and my minimal martial arts training, I'll take my martial arts training.

What about those of us who have been crippled up in a head on collision?

What about the sick and the Elderly?

I'm pretty sure that a young mother (With a still forming child in her womb) would have a hard time fighting someone much bigger and much stronger than her.

I hate to burst a few folks bubbles but the new lady in my life told me she wouldn't mind learning how to shoot.

[Zabijej]

Originally Posted by Onyx

If you want an advantage then, like I said before, learn to fight. Spend less time on the range and more time in the gym/dojo learning to defend yourself with the one set of weapons you always have on you and can not be easily taken away from you. Given a close range match between your holstered gun and my minimal martial arts training, I'll take my martial arts training.

I disagree. Martial arts give you the definite advantage against unarmed opponents. Unless you're advanced enough to consistently use disarming moves, against an ARMED person (whether it be a gun or a knife) you are VERY disadvantaged.

This isn't anything personal against you, but when someone earns a couple belts in martial arts, they think they can fight the world.

[Onyx]

Originally Posted by Deadmanwalking_05

What about those of us who have been crippled up in a head on collision?

What about the sick and the Elderly?

I'm pretty sure that a young mother (With a still forming child in her womb) would have a hard time fighting someone much bigger and much stronger than her.

I hate to burst a few folks bubbles but the new lady in my life told me she wouldn't mind learning how to shoot.

Depends on how crippled up. Can you stand? Do you use a cane? Check out Hapkido. Same goes for the pretty young mother. Hapkido's a Korean martial art that shares a common lineage with Aikdo called Daito ryu Aiki-jutsu from Japan. Came over from Japan during the post Korean occupation period after WWII and was honed in a really rough period there.

Unlike its well known cousin Tae Kwon Do, it doesn't have any of the fancy high kicks. It also doesn't depend on brute force to defeat an attacker, in fact, that goes against the fundamentals of the art. The reason I ask if you can walk and if you use a cane to do so is because one of the main weapons in Hapkdio is the cane.

As for the lady in your life. Hapkido would be great for her as well. Since Hapkido relies on weaknesses in human anatomy and joint manipulation to control and if need be quickly disable an attacker, size and strength aren't a big factor in outcome. In fact, one of the first things you want to do is off balance the other person by dropping your weight a bit. This gives shorter people a HUGE advantage as they're already below a taller person's centre of gravity.

Another thing Hapkido has going for it when it comes to women is that they need to fear being forced into sex much more than being mugged. All of Hapkido's first techniques start out with someone grabbing hold of you in various ways and you learn how to loosen their grab, take control and then take 'em down.

Now back to advantages for everyone of learning Hapkido over a gun.
A) A gun an offensive weapon, period. You can't take any defensive actions with it.

B) Graduation of force. There's posturing then there's firing. That's it. A gun can wound, maim or kill only. Hapkido has great graduation of force as you learn to control the person through joint and balance manipulation. A lot of bouncers like Hapkido because it allows them to take control of someone causing trouble and throw them through the front door. If need be you can use more force in the techniques to dislocate or hyper extend joints.

C) Legal requirements that deal with use of force. Like I said in a previous posting. I'm not aware of anywhere that you can meet the force of a fist with the force of a bullet and not end up behind bars. Is not getting a black eye worth spending years in prison? Besides, we're goth, most of us spend tons of money on make-up to have black eyes. This is an area where Hapkdio is superior to a lot of other martial arts when it comes to self defence. In most states you can only use force so long as the person is a threat. If I had stuck with the Tae Kwon Do I learned as a teenager and someone attacked me. It would be illegal for me to axe kick someone in the head after knocking them down. With Hapkido I keep control of them, even after they're on the ground. If need be I can easily keep control until the police arrive or I've riddiculed them into such shame that they run away crying when I let them up rather than attacking again.

D) I can take Hapkido anywhere. So long as my mind is active it's there. I haven't been in many altercations, however, 99% of them have been in or around places that serve alcohol. I don't care how pro-gun you are. Do you think allowing conceal and carry to extend into a bar is a good idea? I know when I took gun safety I was taught that guns and alcohol should never be enjoyed together.

And really, I'm not anti-gun. I'm anti the stupidity behind the idea that guns are a good tool for self defence. Sure, someone breaks into your home at night then blow their brains out. None of my concerns really apply in that situation because most places allow whatever type of force you feel you need to use when someone breaks into your home and the noise from someone breaking in gives you enough warning that the gun's range advantage isn't taken away.

Other than that a gun should be locked up in your house unless it's locked up in your vehicle while transporting it to another location. I also believe the type of gun someone should be allowed to own should be limited. You don't need a freaking 50 caliber sniper rifle or m16 for self defence, hunting or any other reason gun nuts like to give any time a ban on a type of weapon is considered. I also think that the guns we do allow to be sold need to be a lot harder to purchase with much stricter limits on how many you can buy and how far between. If you want a gun for self defence then one shotgun is your best bet. You don't need to legally be able to buy a couple handguns, a shotgun and a rifle all at the same time or within a quick time frame to defend your home. The way things are now, way to many of the weapons that are legally sold here end up being used against innocent people in the border cities of Mexico, Chechnya and other hot beds for violence.

[Onyx]

Originally Posted by Zabijej

I disagree. Martial arts give you the definite advantage against unarmed opponents. Unless you're advanced enough to consistently use disarming moves, against an ARMED person (whether it be a gun or a knife) you are VERY disadvantaged.

This isn't anything personal against you, but when someone earns a couple belts in martial arts, they think they can fight the world.

I thought we were talking about unarmed opponents. Otherwise the gun makes even less sense. Are you really going to try and draw a gun against someone that's already pointing one at you or has a knife in your face? At that point the best thing to do is just give them what they want. Sadly to say, this includes your body if they're so inclined.

I don't think I can fight the world. If someone's armed then taking offensive action is probably going to leave you hurt or dead using either martial arts or another weapon. Then again, at least with martial arts you don't need to draw a weapon. As far as disarming goes, I'd much rather disarm a gun than a knife. Master used ketchup on the knives and 9 times out of ten I'd have fresh red on me going for the disarm. Not only good for seeing how well you did with the disarm, it's also good for getting it through your head that when going against an armed person you are going to get hurt so it isn't so much of a shock when you do.

[Stabby]

@onyx
I agree that if everyone could learn hapkido for self defense it would probably be effective. I am personally not in enough shape to pursue a martial art. However, taking fifteen minutes twice a week to shoot a gun will improve your skills drastically. A weekend defensive pistol course will allow you to know what to do when you need to defend yourself with one. At close ranges shooting a pistol at someone is about as easy as point and click. I don't think there is much risk on trying to pull a gun on someone. Chances are you've practiced getting your gun out so that it comes out smooth and you're ready to fire. They are most likely unprepared for such an action and don't have the reaction speed to save them. If you are open carrying a gun what kind of idiot would try to rob you? Granted there are people that stupid but they earn Darwin Awards.

[Deadmanwalking_05]

I know three very effective handgun retention techniques

#1:A fist to the throat.

#2: Knife between the ribs.

#3: Draw B.U.G. Fire.