Communism? - Page 4

HumanePain · 02-12-2007, 06:09 PM

I am sure you didn't, because my eyesight is poor and requires correction. My eyes are so bad, I even see "deceive" as "deceieve".

Drake Dun · 02-12-2007, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vyusher

Or appaulled, depending on what time in his life we're speaking of; in his youth, he was an Anarchist circus acrobat.

Can you give me a source on that? I wanted to read about it, but there is nothing in the holy book (=Wikipedia) about it.

Drake

Crimson_seele · 02-15-2007, 05:03 AM

I think the worst problem with communism is that of image and public perception. Communism used to be the DE FACTO choice of ideology of most of the educated world-wide society until the 1930s. And then,the whole crazyness about capitalism, liberalism, and neo-liberalism came only in the 1950s and later, the golden age of the american capitalism. And even more so, were it not for America and its particular history, liberalism would probably be a LOT less popular nowadays (seeing how most of politicians and intelectuals in Europe and Latin America were rbought up studying Marx as a viable option).

Again, the problem with communism is that most people (especially in America) associate it with the experience of the Soviet Union, when this particular example is the worst example of what socialism/communism should be like. The Soviet Union, after Lenin, forgot about its worldwide revolution, and concentrated on exercicing only a dictatorship of the State. Many of these so called "communist states" are so only in name but not in practice.

Another thing to be thought about is that communism and democracy are not opposites at all... if anything the great ideals of communism are the same of democracy's. Politicians and economists have often attacked communism giving the false impression that a democratic society CANNOT be a communist society (mainly because of the false image of dictatorship). This is NOT true at all... communism calls for the participation of the people in the making of their own future, even more so because communism calls for the bringing down of the small group of people who rule societies in the capitalist world (that of rich people only interested in their own wealth despite the people who have helped them attain that, the most common of workers).

Communism is opposed to capitalism and liberalism, that is, the economic and symbolic rule of a selected succesful few in spite of the rest of society.

CptSternn · 02-18-2007, 08:25 AM

Thats a very good point. Most of those who rally against communism are actually against what they have seen in american media and america films. They have no concept of actual communism.

That however I guarantee will change as soon as China decides to flex its muscle and start taking over. I mean, they have a space programme thats now surpassing the states, a military that has not only surpassed but is ten times the size, a public education system that american could learn from and now, after many decades is raising the quality of life for their people beyond the average american.

Tis a matter of time before americans have to wake up and ask themselves which government does more for its people.

Drake Dun · 02-18-2007, 08:49 AM

Dude. I live near China and so I know lots of people who have been there. If you think the average quality of life there is higher than in America, you are smoking something much more potent than pot or communist ideology. Either that, or all of the stories I have heard (mostly from people without particularly strong political inclinations of any sort) are spectacularly ambitious fabrications.

Drake

nuksaa · 02-18-2007, 09:10 AM

Quote:

a military that has not only surpassed but is ten times the size,

I agree that the size of China's military is larger than the US. I do not agree that they have surpassed the US. China still has many engineering and manufacturing issues with their military equipment. Is China's military potent? Most definitely. But pure size of the military doesn't equate to surpassing anyone's military, including Russia.

ArtificialOne · 02-18-2007, 10:29 AM

Of course we don't have the largest military, just the most technologically powerful.

If you think communism is better than what we have here in the US, either you need to get on or off the drugs your on.

CptSternn · 02-19-2007, 05:29 AM

Heh, obviously people here haven't been following the news coming out of China. Thanks to Wal-Mart, the quality of life country wide is raising at rates faster than anyone could imagine. With American's buys more and more everyday at Wal-Mart and Wal-Mart getting almost all of their products from Chineese companies, they are making significant changes almost monthly there.

Plants manufacturing everything from tellys to dishware are opening almost every month, employing thousands of new workers each month and paying them well above the national average. In fact, many Chineese are skipping college to work in such factories as the wages paid by the Wal-Mart affiliates are enough to support a family quite well.

They had a series on BBC and RTE just the other week about it.

Ironically enough, they showed how American products and plants are closing and all work is going to China, who then produces it and ships it back to America - for half the cost to American's and at a very healthy profit for the Chineese.

Hades · 02-26-2007, 01:08 PM

Any good political ideology would mostly fail in practice due to the fact that there's just too many of us, and as much as we try to be noble and humane, in the end most of the people will try to get the better end of the deal. In the majority of the typical commie countries many people sat their asses and gave a crap performance at their job simply because they thought "hey whatever, i'll still get paid just as much as this dude who works his ass off".
Besides, somehow it seems that humans are meant to mainly remain dreamers and keep seeking for that perfect ideology rather than achieving it. But hey might be just me who makes sense out of this, yeah?

Vako · 03-05-2007, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hades

Any good political ideology would mostly fail in practice due to the fact that there's just too many of us, and as much as we try to be noble and humane, in the end most of the people will try to get the better end of the deal. In the majority of the typical commie countries many people sat their asses and gave a crap performance at their job simply because they thought "hey whatever, i'll still get paid just as much as this dude who works his ass off".
Besides, somehow it seems that humans are meant to mainly remain dreamers and keep seeking for that perfect ideology rather than achieving it. But hey might be just me who makes sense out of this, yeah?

Makes sense to me, and well put. Eloquent. Couldn't have said it better meself.

IMHO

maggot · 03-06-2007, 03:57 AM

Fasciocommunism would work, because it would keep people from not working their asses off.

Valerius · 03-06-2007, 07:36 AM

Has anyone here ever read the book 'Animal Farm' by George Orwell? It speaks a lot about communism and socialism by and large, about how the authorities are the ones to decide what the general populace 'needs', and how this eventually leads to corruption amongst the higher echelons of office. Of course, it's written as a satire, but you'll get the gist of it when you read it.

Anyway, Sternn, ALL of the news that goes around in China is filtered by a STATE CENSOR. Anything that isn't 'good' is filtered and the writer penalised. Only those that promote the 'goodness' that comes out of China's state-sponsored media is let out into the open world. They even recently began contemplating putting up some sort of ministry that will filter out all the net traffic that goes in and out of their country.

For crying out loud, they suppressed information about the outbreaks of bird flu and SARS that were happening across their rural areas, and until now are hiding the fact that there is a growing possibility of an AIDS epidemic in their northern border with Russia and Mongolia.

I wouldn't so readily trust any sort of news that comes out of China knowing what I know.

Lemme count off a list of undesirable things that China has done or is doing in the present.

-Tiananmen Square Massacre; students protesting the government were sitting in the Square, surrounded by the military when the tanks were ordered in and ran over the dissenting students. Anyone else was shot.

-Rural dissent amongst farmers protesting their eviction from their farmland to pave the way for development are clubbed and beaten by riot police. Farmers and their relatives often disappear mysteriously, only to be found dead later on or are never found at all.

-Falun Gong members routinely disappear off the streets or are snatched from their homes, to be tortured or ***** by members of a corrupt police force.

I could count off a few more, but you get the point.

As Hades has pointed out, a communist state guarantees work from cradle to the grave. One problem this caused is that state factories in the former Soviet Union routinely churned out substandard products because the workers weren't motivated to work hard just to keep a livelihood. This is opposed to the current capitalist practice that you are guaranteed a life by your merits where you must work hard to keep a job, thus encouraging the better output.

China's economy may be skyrocketing, but there lies an evergrowing rift between the poor who are becoming poorer and the rich who are only becoming richer. The wealth that is pouring into China right now is not due to communism, but due more to the needs of capitalism.

Anyhoo, even if sometimes in a democracy you don't get what you want when you vote, I still like the notion that my votes count even if that's not entirely sometimes.

Drake Dun · 03-06-2007, 08:12 PM

Well put about China.

Regarding democracy... depending on who you are, you might not get any of what you want, ever. Still, it's a step up from naked authoritarianism.

Drake

ArtificialOne · 03-07-2007, 08:48 AM

Great Valerius!!!

I couldn't have put it better.

Also, I would recommend 1984 as an almost perfect blueprint as to how North Korea works. George was a socialist I believe, but hated what russia was doing with communism.

CptSternn · 03-08-2007, 03:17 AM

One could argue the exact same about the states now. The poor-rich divide as pointed out in countless articles in other threads here (I'll be happy to repost if needed) is gorwing fasting in America than ever before.

I could argue about rights, etc. but here is an article from today that pretty much says it for me...

China hits back, accuses U.S. of rights abuses

http://news.**********/s/nm/20070308...aEq8mujVhg.3QA

BEIJING (Reuters) - China accused the United States of hypocrisy on Thursday in its annual response to Washington's criticism of Beijing's human rights record, saying it had no right to blacken the name of other countries.

"As in previous years, the State Department pointed the finger at human rights conditions in more than 190 countries and regions, including China, but avoided touching on the human rights situation in the United States," said the report, carried by the official Xinhua news agency.

China hopes its report will "help people have a better understanding of the situation in the United States and promote the international cause of human rights."

"The report is like a mirror for America to look at its own human rights conditions, and to see what qualification it has to make criticism and to interfere in other countries with the excuses of human rights," Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Qin Gang told a news conference.

The report did not mention U.S. Secretary of State
Condoleezza Rice's admission this week that the United States did have its own human rights problems.

The report took aim at a variety of issues, including civilian deaths in
Iraq, child poverty, racism, mistreatment of prisoners and the place of U.S. women in the workplace.

It said naming and shaming other countries in an annual report on human rights practices amounted to waging the Cold War of the second half of the 20th century and was "typical of Cold War mentality."

"We urge the U.S. government to acknowledge its own human rights problems and stop interfering in other countries' internal affairs under the pretext of human rights," said the lengthy report.

"SHOCKING INJUSTICE"

Cases of abuses were sourced to Western media reports, U.S. government statistics and even groups like Amnesty International that normally themselves face Chinese opprobrium for their criticism of Beijing's human rights record.

"Injustice of the judiciary is quite shocking," the Chinese report states. "In some cases, defendants were sent to jail without a guilty plea or a trial, or tossed from their homes without a proper proceeding.

"Abuses in U.S. prisons are also common. The United States is the only country in the world that allows the use of police dogs to terrify prisoners," it added.

Yet China has come in for censure itself from the
United Nations, whose special rapporteur on torture, Manfred Nowak, said that the practice remained widespread in the country.

Summary trials behind closed door of activists have also brought international condemnation.

China maintains the issue of human rights is about sovereignty -- non-interference in the affairs of other countries, a line taken by other countries often in the line of fire for human rights abuses, like Myanmar.

I quite agree with the Chinese on this - that the U.S. needs to take care of its own issues and human rights abuses before it goes around pointing the finger at others. As long as people in America can be taken off the street and 'disappeared' like the Falun Gong, and as long as they can be held without charge for years in prison without access to council, as long as the U.S. uses 'loop holes' and nomenclature to allow the torture of it's own citizens I don't think they should be viewed as a good model of government for anyone.

Valerius · 03-08-2007, 04:14 AM

No-one is arguing for the States' being a good model of democracy here. What is being discussed is China's being communist and how bad it gets in the countryside and how their totalitarian government suppresses any sort of news that puts a bad light on their activities.

We both agree though that human rights abuses are something that should be stopped, and we both agree that with the States labeling other countries and listing them as having poor rights records is a case of the kettle calling the pot black, but the fact of the matter is you have here a communist regime with a lack of a system of checks and balances where whatever the politburo says is absolute and must be followed with no chance of recourse.

Do I trust communism? Sure - on paper, that is. But there is no way in hell I would want my democracy to be suddenly changed into communism because I am sure as fuck that there is more chance for corruption in communism than in democracy.

Drake Dun · 03-08-2007, 05:02 AM

I just got done reading the Communist Manifesto for the first time ever. It is sufficiently old now that I felt a distinct problem with lack of context, and also he really enjoys ambiguity. By the time I got finished, I was very, very, painfully clear on what he did *not* want but not entirely clear on what he *did* want.

Still, there are some good insights in there. It's surprising how relevant parts of it still our in the modern world.

Drake

ArtificialOne · 03-08-2007, 10:40 AM

You seem to like china so much, go live there? Are you willing to trust your life and quality of it to a media report?

I also don't see thousands of people flocking to live there.

I've also never heard of people coming up missing due to govt involvement in the states.

We may not be perfect, but compared to china we are angels, even in our worst moments.

So basically to stir up trouble, you will believe a propaganda report delivered to reuters by the chinese govt? And not beleive a country with 300million + people and thousands of immigrants a year flooding in?

I geuss haveing a good legal system where you can get justice the majority of time and not dissappear from your family is a bad thing? Who would ever know.

Go live in China cpt. Give me a ring in about 5yrs and tell me how much you like your new found freedoms.

republigoth · 03-08-2007, 03:41 PM

I thought the liberal bra-burning issue was still Tibet. Now it's supporting the regime that caused the death of what, 1.2 million tibetans under the justification of "at least it's not america?" I must be behind the times.

People excape china so they can come here and be free to critisize their own government without being executed. People here who wish to critisize the government tend to get a nationally broadcast cable network time slot and be a paid guest speaker at every college campus in the states. There is no comparison. The u.s is vastly superior in both legal and human rights.

Anyone who would find the U.S equal or inferior morally to China bases their opinions on selfish teenage rebellion against the authority who feeds you and pays your bills: "My mom is like, such a bitch, she totally oppressed me when I wanted to go to my pot-smoking girlfriend's house."

The principle is the same. You will understand when you're older.

CptSternn · 03-09-2007, 03:23 AM

I find it humorous that since bush took office there is now a new 'branch' of the FBI located in China - part of a international law enforcement 'learning' practice setup by bush.

The question is, is America learning about how to give the people MORE rights based on the Chinese law enforcement practices or are the Chinese learning from America?

Considering the Chinese didn't setup any offices in the states, it's safe to assume the former.

Those who blast the lack of rights under the Chinese government should know the American government and law enforcement is currently taking lessons from them.

Valerius · 03-09-2007, 04:16 AM

Eh, no. No training going on there. That's just some diplomatic bullshit to forge 'closer ties' with China. I also took some minutes to read what I could on that and found absolutely no evidence to support your claim. Are you speaking out of your ass just to save face?

Wasn't it just clarified that we aren't comparing China and America but more on China's human rights track record and it being communist? I honestly cannot see why you're even bringing up America into this topic when the topic of America steers so way off of this discussion.

Seriously, have you even BEEN to China? I have, and it ain't pretty. Go live in China, somewhere like in Guangdong province, and you'll see firsthand what kind of abuses the authorities lay on the peasant farmers.

Seriously, go.

ArtificialOne · 03-09-2007, 09:58 AM

Yeah, and he didn't answer the question either.

And china does have consolates in the us with contigents of security. So does many other countries all around the world.

And also, The US and many countries swap law enforcement teams and do training. This has been going on for decades and isn't really news.

I said it in another thread. But stern is so biased and angry at the US he can not possibly be a reliable source of info or opinion. He's a lapdog of the extreme left hate everyone but us brigade.

Valerius · 03-09-2007, 06:19 PM

Right, he's a hopeless cause.

Vako · 03-12-2007, 02:08 PM

It's interesting about this site. There are people on this site from all around the spiritual and political spectrum. There's a Communist, a National Socialist, some Capitalists, I believe someone mentioned that they are a Christian, there's a Satanist on here, and someone mentioned that they're athiest or agnostic or something.

And we all like Goth! Fascinating, and very intriguing.

CptSternn · 03-13-2007, 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vako

It's interesting about this site. There are people on this site from all around the spiritual and political spectrum. There's a Communist, a National Socialist, some Capitalists, I believe someone mentioned that they are a Christian, there's a Satanist on here, and someone mentioned that they're athiest or agnostic or something.

And we all like Goth! Fascinating, and very intriguing.

Actually not to go off topic, but there are a few who post just here that are anti-goth. A bunch of right wing republicans who found this site via google who joined just to try and 'convert' us. You find them in a few of the Christian discussions as well. Binkie being the last of a group of about 8, most of which were perma-banned from the site by the admin about a year ago (but many of their old responses are in the threads if you look back far enough).