Arguing from ignorance

[viscus]

So, there seem to be a lot of people that think they can demonstrate God just by poking holes in scientific theories.

I want to punch them.

[Tam Li Hua]

Yeah, that can be frustrating.

What's worse are folks who think that proving how well science works undoes God's existence.

[I refuse to accept the idea that I have to be either for God OR for science, as if it's a sports competition instead of a search for truth.]

[viscus]

You don't need science to undermine God, he's already fucked because he relies on circular reasoning.

[Tam Li Hua]

He does? O.o

Do I dare get into a religious discussion on Gnet? lol

[Methadrine]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

What's worse are folks who think that proving how well science works undoes God's existence.

[I refuse to accept the idea that I have to be either for God OR for science, as if it's a sports competition instead of a search for truth.]

Not really. Science doesn't compete in proving there isn't a god, but each break-through in science points more and more to the probability that there isn't a god/gods. Atleast not the ones mankind invented.

In all fairness, it was the church/religions that opposed science first.

[Tam Li Hua]

I guess I should make myself a little more clear. The more that science discovers about the world, the more convinced I am that there had to be an Intelligence to make it all come about so neatly and wonderfully.

But I also see the other side of how some folks feel that science undoes the traditional idea of a literal 7-Day creationist God. I can see it, but due to personal events, I can't say that God doesn't exist. [I don't expect others to agree with me, and have no desire to convert others to my way of thinking; just offering my thoughts.]

[PortraitOfSanity]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

I guess I should make myself a little more clear. The more that science discovers about the world, the more convinced I am that there had to be an Intelligence to make it all come about so neatly and wonderfully.

*palmface*

[viscus]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

I guess I should make myself a little more clear. The more that science discovers about the world, the more convinced I am that there had to be an Intelligence to make it all come about so neatly and wonderfully.

That's something of an argument from ignorance: you can't fathom how the universe could exist on its own with such complexity so you assume God. And not just any of the multitude of gods in human history, but the specific Abrahamic God.

Sorry, but you're only part of the way there.

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

But I also see the other side of how some folks feel that science undoes the traditional idea of a literal 7-Day creationist God. I can see it, but due to personal events, I can't say that God doesn't exist. [I don't expect others to agree with me, and have no desire to convert others to my way of thinking; just offering my thoughts.]

Sorry, but you are not entitled to your opinion.

[PortraitOfSanity]

I would argue that people are indeed entitled to their ignorant opinions, but only if I'm entitled to slap the shit out of them when they voice those opinions.

[ape descendant]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

I guess I should make myself a little more clear. The more that science discovers about the world, the more convinced I am that there had to be an Intelligence to make it all come about so neatly and wonderfully.

But I also see the other side of how some folks feel that science undoes the traditional idea of a literal 7-Day creationist God. I can see it, but due to personal events, I can't say that God doesn't exist. [I don't expect others to agree with me, and have no desire to convert others to my way of thinking; just offering my thoughts.]

Science deals with the natural world.... the existence of a god or gods is a question of the supernatural which is something that can't be tested by science.

Reality undoes the idea of a literal 7 day creation. Science doesn't really "undo" it as such.. just shows that the idea was wrong the whole time, the new information doesn't change the way things are, just sheds more and more light on the truth about the natural world.

If there's some sort of "intelligence" guiding the evolution of the universe in general... I really don't know... I highly doubt it though...

[Alan]

Originally Posted by PortraitOfSanity

I would argue that people are indeed entitled to their ignorant opinions, but only if I'm entitled to slap the shit out of them when they voice those opinions.

"I disagree with your opinion, but I will defend to the death your right to go fuck yourself"
http://asofterworld.com/clean/evelynhall.jpg

[JCC.]

Objectively, what's to say some sort of being or collection of didn't kick start something. Theoretically, it's possible to create a universe in yr basement. If a God was all powerful, couldn't they create evolution? It could be thought of in the same way a scientist brings together a collection of elements and bam, some shit or other happens. For all we know, God or Allah or Zardon the Planet Eater was actually called Steve and wore a lab coat. This can allow for both, with some leniency. I think I read some place that they can trace the big bang back to a nano second after it happened, and really, it's beyond pointless trying to go back farther. You can't remember the moment you were conceived, you didn't officially exist. If what came before the Universe was nothing which became something, you'll never find that nothing, because it's not there to find. If it was a collection of elements in a microwave, you couldn't find that either, because of space shifting so as not to collide with the already existing Universe. If some sort of God other than Steve in his lab coat exists, which would mean at least some of the Bible is true, then finding the point of origin of the universe is pointless again, because apparently, there was dick all there. What's that idea that at any point, anything can happen, no matter how illogical or improbable? Like one day your fridge turns into Harold Ramis or something for no reason at all. I forget. Any way, the chances of these things happening are fucking tiny. Before the universe, there was nothing but time, and given enough time, whatever happened to spark this shit could have happened, whether it being the nothing becoming aware of it's existence, or two nothings bumped into each other and exploded in a massive non space.

If God exists, so what? Evolution has it's zealots all the same. From my experience, it's those guys that get their titties all twisted up when it comes to discussing creation. I say let people believe what the fuck ever they want, just don't expect me to give a rat's asshole.

I'm from the Don't Give A Shit camp at this point. I'm past caring whether or not people believe in a God, and whether or not a God exists. The same old crap still bugs me, using religion as a way to argue the correctness of your own bigotry, but that still happens even when religion isn't involved, so there's no difference other than someone thinks a book is true. Religion doesn't kill people, nut balls do. Non religious nut balls kill people just the same.

[Hearts_Purple]

I don't really care if people believe in Intelligent Design, I just don't want it taught to my children in a public school. People can have all the ignorant, biased opinions they want so long as I'm not being forced to swallow it(or being forced to let it be taught to my kids).

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by viscus

That's something of an argument from ignorance: you can't fathom how the universe could exist on its own with such complexity so you assume God. And not just any of the multitude of gods in human history, but the specific Abrahamic God.

Actually, it's more that science confirms what I already know to be true, kind of how a broken leg, ruptured spleen, and various bruises and cuts proves that the train was, indeed, real.

I'm not changing my mind just because someone on the internet doesn't like it. That would be silly.

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by Hearts_Purple

I don't really care if people believe in Intelligent Design, I just don't want it taught to my children in a public school. People can have all the ignorant, biased opinions they want so long as I'm not being forced to swallow it(or being forced to let it be taught to my kids).

Fair enough.

[Alan]

A person that doesn't understand Occam's Razor talking about what's silly and what's not? That's the real silliness here.

Also, I think this is the first time I have disagreed with Duckman looking sadly down on his opinion.

[ape descendant]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

Actually, it's more that science confirms what I already know to be true, kind of how a broken leg, ruptured spleen, and various bruises and cuts proves that the train was, indeed, real.

I'm not changing my mind just because someone on the internet doesn't like it. That would be silly.

It helps if you have seen a train, and witnessed what trains do to people.

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by ape descendant

Science deals with the natural world.... the existence of a god or gods is a question of the supernatural which is something that can't be tested by science.

Reality undoes the idea of a literal 7 day creation. Science doesn't really "undo" it as such.. just shows that the idea was wrong the whole time, the new information doesn't change the way things are, just sheds more and more light on the truth about the natural world.

Honestly, I completely agree with both of these statements, especially the first one; no matter which side of the fence you're on, using something natural to prove or disprove something supernatural just isn't going to work.

I can no more prove to another person the idea of an Intelligent Creator with science than I can prove that there's an invisible teapot circling Pluto, and vice versa.

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by ape descendant

It helps if you have seen a train, and witnessed what trains do to people.

Some people will claim they have, but yet others who have never seen a train or its effects will doubt that the trains are real at all, and that all those wounds are from something else entirely.

Anyways, I'm going to get out of this conversation; today's just not the day for me to have this kind of conversation online.

[ape descendant]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

Honestly, I completely agree with both of these statements, especially the first one; no matter which side of the fence you're on, using something natural to prove or disprove something supernatural just isn't going to work.

I can no more prove to another person the idea of an Intelligent Creator with science than I can prove that there's an invisible teapot circling Pluto, and vice versa.

....yup...

I do, however, have a real teapot in my cupboard..

[ape descendant]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

Some people will claim they have, but yet others who have never seen a train or its effects will doubt that the trains are real at all, and that all those wounds are from something else entirely.

Anyways, I'm going to get out of this conversation; today's just not the day for me to have this kind of conversation online.

They can be shown proof of a train.. photographs and traintracks.. they can also be taken to see an actual train....

I certainly understand the need to bow out sometimes... I hope you have a good one.

[Hearts_Purple]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

Some people will claim they have, but yet others who have never seen a train or its effects will doubt that the trains are real at all, and that all those wounds are from something else entirely.

Anyways, I'm going to get out of this conversation; today's just not the day for me to have this kind of conversation online.

Wrong. We can prove the existence of trains. We cannot prove the existence of 'god'.

edit: AD beat me, consarnit!

[Saya]

Originally Posted by viscus

That's something of an argument from ignorance: you can't fathom how the universe could exist on its own with such complexity so you assume God. And not just any of the multitude of gods in human history, but the specific Abrahamic God.

That peeves me off too, not so much when people justify God to themselves but when people are like "You don't believe in God?! Then how do you explain the circulatory system, HMMM!?"

And its like, "well for all we know God is a pimply teenager at his computer and we are his Sims."

[JCC.]

Originally Posted by Alan

A person that doesn't understand Occam's Razor talking about what's silly and what's not? That's the real silliness here.

Also, I think this is the first time I have disagreed with Duckman looking sadly down on his opinion.

Fuck it, I'm getting too damn old to even give a shit about Gods or religions or how all this bull happened. My point was that people have tunnel vision when it comes to this subject, and point blank refuse to take off blinkers and consider options. People think you can either stand on the X, or off the X. There are also varying amounts of how on the X you are, the grey area. Whether or not people believe or don't changes precisely dick, the problems still remain only now they have a Groucho Marx disguise on. The only true, provable reality is that we are here, and we have to fucking deal with it. If it turned out there was a God, what changes? Does that make the Science false? If it's proven that God doesn't exist, 100%, fucking infallible proof, do you REALLY think the religious population will stop believing, even if you waved the proof in front of them and explained in the simplest logic how and why? In the end, it doesn't matter, nothing changes. There may or may not be a curtain for something to hide behind. What does it matter? "Hey, guys, it's OK, we totally found out right now that there are zero amount of deities! We can stop all of that war and bigotry now!" "Fuck, did you hear that? Sorry, brown people and gays, our bad!" "Oh, that's OK, whitey, we were being just as silly. So, you like XBox?" "I like penises in my asshole!" "Oh, you gays are so neat!" Not going to happen. People are still greedy, retarded and prejudiced without religion. Look at me, I don't believe and I'm a hateful, spiteful, bitter bastard. Noam Chomsky doesn't believe, and I'd remortgage my house to punch him in the kidney. We all fucking suck from the moment we are born. Whether or not there's a Heaven or Hell to go to is arbitrary horse shit. The phrase "We'll see when we get there" was never so true.

On the subject of religion in schools, I figure why not set up two different shops? Same type of thign they shold do for the smoking ban in pubs and bars. You like to smoke? Well, fuck, there's a smokers bar right here! You a non smoker? Well, shit, here's a nice, smoke free place for you to get smashed in! Because, the only way to make everyone happy is to have both, or neither, and even then that requires far more faith in humanity than I have. People can't even decide what fucking colour to paint their living room, there's no way they could decide on this.

In short, we are all here and we're all gonna be dead soon. Oh well!

[JCC.]

Also, I didn't need for anyone to agree with me twenty years ago, I don't now, and I sure as shit won't give a fuck about it in another twenty years.