Why "no kill" and 90% of what P.E.T.A says is bullshit

[NachtSorcier]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

You are talking about bugs, and in fact, my opinion IS that an insect diet would give us an impressive amount of protein.
Growing vegetables, putting earthworms to enrich the soil, eating the vegetables and grounding the earthworms, composting the leftovers to further enrich the soil...

So what you just said doesn't help justify your position at all unless you really have an insect diet.

I know you can read, so you can see that it clearly says "mammals...along with termites..."

The fact that people go on about the poor cows and pigs but don't give a fuck about bugs is a glaring indication of a double-standard. You can't claim to care about the value of life and then say that a bug's life doesn't mean anything.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by NachtSorcier

I know you can read, so you can see that it clearly says "mammals...along with termites..."

How does that contradict my claim that chimpanzees are capable of eating meat, which they do only when there is scarcity of their common food?
Isn't it PRECISELY PROOF of what I'm saying?

[JCC]

I don't believe that a bug's life doesn't mean anything. I'm not to mourn particularly for the death of an insect merely because of the impracticality of trying to avoid killing them; if you sat by yourself in the corner of a small room there is still probably some way that you could kill or at least harm an insect. That said, I wouldn't be impressed if someone flippantly killed insects and I try not to do it myself. Unfortunately, even the most extreme Jainism could not completely side-step the eventuality of death. However, this does not justify or legitimise the animal trade.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by NachtSorcier

Not all of them do. If I remember correctly, cows are an example of herbivores which have only flat teeth. More to the point, chimpanzees, which are our closest relative genetically speaking, are meat-eaters despite not having any weapons other than agility and muscular strength.

Chimps also **** and pillage and kill for fun. Cows don't have canines but horses and some species of deer do, rats and other rodents eat meat but have no canines. Also my friend here is a herbivore but has the most fascinating of canines:

I didn't say that anyone is supposed to eat meat, I said that we are equipped to eat meat. Therefore, anyone who chooses to eat meat can and anyone who chooses not to has that option. It is the way of nature for life to feed on life - plants feed on decayed remains, animals feed off plants and each other, but I will not besmirch anyone their personal choices.

A man is equipped to **** a woman, but we all understand its not okay to do that. And if you really want to feed off of life, why does it have to be animal life?

Perhaps not the incidents themselves, but if you want to say that cows and pigs are creatures with feelings who deserve to live, then you must admit that rats and roaches and ticks are, too.

Rats do, they are extremely intelligent and sociable animals with complex emotions, roaches and ticks however have two issues, while I do advocate pest control that deters rather than destroys, I do know that if you have lice or ticks you don't have a lot of choice, but until you find your hair or skin infested with cows I don't see what that has to do with anything. The second issue with them is also if they have emotions or sentience, by first hand experience I can say they probably do but its not as evident as those of a cow, pig, chicken or rat.

Morals and ethics are relative. It has everything to do with politics.

No it does not, while it does enter politics in when we discuss how to establish animal rights, what can be done before it is enacted is the world of ethics. There is currently no personal consequence for eating meat unless you count the possible colon, heart and weight problems it can cause, therefore it is the issue of ethics. Would you eat meat if you could? Would you murder if you could get away with it? Would you own a slave if it were legal? This is the world of ethics.

What then is your plan for getting everybody to stop eating meat? If you shut down all farms you'll put thousands of farmers into poverty; regardless of the method you will be denying millions their choice of food. Either way, it goes against what America's standards are supposed to be.

Boo fucking hoo, I'm sure the abolition of slavery made a lot of slave drivers lose their jobs, and women's rights made men sudden have to cook their own fucking dinners, but so what? They're doing something wrong and I should be sad that they would lose that? And everyone would still have a large variety of food to choose from, just none that came from exploiting sentient beings. In any case, no animal rights group has ever suggested a totalitarian method, they've all chosen outreach to the public as their method of expanding veganism and getting support for their cause.

Special interest groups are using unrelated issues to gain sympathy? Gee, I've never heard of that tactic before.

Its not unrelated, several feminists I know are vegetarian or vegan and think it hypocritical of other feminists to not support animal rights as well, as they fight for women rights they also acknowledge that animals too are objectified, the arguments against women rights are often very similar to the arguments against animal rights, and as Jillian pointed out are also very similar to pro-slavery arguments. It is only common sense that these issues would overlap, on one hand you have people fighting against other objectifying them, on the other you have people fighting against the objectification of animals, last I checked people are animals too. Here's a few articles on the feminism issue:

http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/...fect-together/
http://www.farinc.org/about.html
http://www.got.net/~elained/animalrights.html
http://bitchmagazine.org/post/femini...-animal-rights

[NachtSorcier]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

How does that contradict my claim that chimpanzees are capable of eating meat, which they do only when there is scarcity of their common food?
Isn't it PRECISELY PROOF of what I'm saying?

No. I see nothing which says they only eat meat when they're in danger of starving.

[JCC]

Originally Posted by NachtSorcier

What then is your plan for getting everybody to stop eating meat? If you shut down all farms you'll put thousands of farmers into poverty; regardless of the method you will be denying millions their choice of food. Either way, it goes against what America's standards are supposed to be.

I don't have a plan for getting everybody to stop eating meat. I don't plan to get everybody to stop eating meat. I don't eat animal products, I would like to convince others, but I've no respect for legislation.

Originally Posted by NachtSorcier

Special interest groups are using unrelated issues to gain sympathy? Gee, I've never heard of that tactic before.

You are so fucking dense it is unbelievable. You said that if I were to hypothetically ask a slave whether they thought that animal issues were tantamount to slavery, they would say that they are not. I told you that there are many cases where people involved in the abolition of the slave trade and the post-slavery black rights movement were also involved in the animal rights movement, which invalidates your claim.

[NachtSorcier]

Originally Posted by JCC

I don't have a plan for getting everybody to stop eating meat. I don't plan to get everybody to stop eating meat. I don't eat animal products, I would like to convince others, but I've no respect for legislation.

You are so fucking dense it is unbelievable. You said that if I were to hypothetically ask a slave whether they thought that animal issues were tantamount to slavery, they would say that they are not. I told you that there are many cases where people involved in the abolition of the slave trade and the post-slavery black rights movement were also involved in the animal rights movement, which invalidates your claim.

I don't think I'm the one who's dense here. Being involved in two separate issues does not mean those issues are equal. I'm concerned about gun control and gay marriage, for example, but those two things have nothing to do with each other and it would be very stupid to say that they are in some way related.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by NachtSorcier

I don't think I'm the one who's dense here. Being involved in two separate issues does not mean those issues are equal. I'm concerned about gun control and gay marriage, for example, but those two things have nothing to do with each other and it would be very stupid to say that they are in some way related.

So you don't believe you fight in both because it's the logical progression for a more sensible society?
In fact, while with one you might believe you're doing good, the other one is to dick around with people?

[NachtSorcier]

Saya, I noticed you have a George Carlin quote in your sig. Here's another one for you.

"I believe that we either have unlimited rights or no rights at all. Personally, I lean toward unlimited rights...for example, if I do something you don't like, I think you have the right to kill me."

Along the same lines, if I do something you don't like and you try to kill me, I have the right to kill you first if I can. So would I kill somebody if it were legal? If I had a good reason, yeah, probably.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by NachtSorcier

Along the same lines, if I do something you don't like and you try to kill me, I have the right to kill you first if I can. So would I kill somebody if it were legal? If I had a good reason, yeah, probably.

You're a fucking idiot.
Then again that was evident when you didn't stop calling me an asshole even though I never said anything remotely confrontational.

[Saya]

While I like George Carlin, particularly for the quote I have in my sig, I do question the man. So sorry, no, I don't worship George Carlin as a god and I think he was wrong on that issue, if he was really serious about it, murder is wrong no matter how you look at it or what comedian says its okay.

[NachtSorcier]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

You're a fucking idiot.
Then again that was evident when you didn't stop calling me an asshole even though I never said anything remotely confrontational.

I only called you an asshole once, so if you can't count past one you're the fucking idiot.

[Godslayer Jillian]

So you punch someone, he punches you back, and now you say you were justified in punching him?

[NachtSorcier]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

So you punch someone, he punches you back, and now you say you were justified in punching him?

None of you people really understand anything I say. You just don't get it, so I give up. Vegans, or as I like to call them, obsessive cow pie sniffers, can go to hell, as can you self-righteous twits who say you eat meat but still want to argue on whether or not it's okay. You're just arguing to hear your own voice because you're a vain dickwad who's only interested in being thought of as uber-smartz.

[Godslayer Jillian]

As I said, I'm not a vegan. So you are clearly just pissed and trying to swing and hit anything, but you aren't.
This just reinforces my claim: you're a fucking idiot.

[NachtSorcier]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

As I said, I'm not a vegan. So you are clearly just pissed and trying to swing and hit anything, but you aren't.
This just reinforces my claim: you're a fucking idiot.

I'm a fucking idiot because your narrow eyes can't read the words "as can you self-righteous twits who say you eat meat but still want to argue on whether or not it's okay?"

[Godslayer Jillian]

In fact I did not read that. I trust you actually understand it wasn't about the narrowness of my eyes and you're obviously just trying to somehow insult me, because that's how much of a dick you are.

As for the self-righteousness, why is someone who smokes knowing the dangers of tobacco more self-righteous than he who smokes and will bullshit his way to justify his habit all the while pretending to be superior to those that give him evidence of the contrary?

[Saya]

Originally Posted by NachtSorcier

None of you people really understand anything I say. You just don't get it, so I give up. Vegans, or as I like to call them, obsessive cow pie sniffers, can go to hell, as can you self-righteous twits who say you eat meat but still want to argue on whether or not it's okay. You're just arguing to hear your own voice because you're a vain dickwad who's only interested in being thought of as uber-smartz.

While I do question why I would even give an ignorant hick the benefit of the doubt and try to debate WHEN HE WANDERS IN THE THREAD AND STATES HIS OPINION (jesus, what did you think would happen? A debate?! Oh goodness no!). I'm not vain, I know I'm not the smartest person in the world but I don't see what self righteous or vain about sticking up for those who can't defend themselves from blood thirsty men armed with bolt guns, electrical prods, and knives.

[NachtSorcier]

No, you see, I try to keep debates civil. I tried to be polite and keep my mind open to your viewpoints - in fact I looked up everything you all told me and found that in a few cases you were right and I had a lesson learned - but I did not receive that in return. In return I was called a fucking idiot and a dumb hick (which, by the way, is funny, because I'm not originally from this state, which none of you have probably ever been to). That is why I got pissed, because none of you have any interest in civilness, you're only interested in being right and firing insults. You'll note that I did not drop the civilness until you all started acting like jerks.

Debates I have no problem with. Arguments coming from people who can't hold a point without getting personal and vulgar I do.

[Godslayer Jillian]

You might be right, but can you prove me that? I don't see where it was that you were polite and I was the dick.

[Saya]

Dude, I called you a hick long after you called me a bitch and a terrorist.

[NachtSorcier]

Well, almost immediately after my first post, Saya jumped in with staggering condescension and word-twisting, then JCC jumped on the condescension bandwagon. I used the words please and thank you and told everybody to have a great night, because I like to be polite. Not long after that the personal insults began.

I admit, Jillian, I spoke sarcastically to you when I should not have, that was wrong of me and I apologize. You first spoke to me after my defenses had already begun to come up. However, I still think your insults were very uncalled for, especially since I did not insult you in any way.

I think it's very unfair to call me an idiot or a dumb hick because I don't agree with your beliefs. I think I have been very fair when I said that I respect your (and when I say "your," I'm speaking to everybody) dietary choices and that I ask to receive that same respect.

All I ever wanted was to get along with you all in spite of our differences.

[NachtSorcier]

Originally Posted by Saya

Dude, I called you a hick long after you called me a bitch and a terrorist.

Ma'am, I did not call you a terrorist. I said that it would be terrorism if an organization or individual used violence or force to prevent others from making a living or eating what they want. You're taking everything I say personally and that is where the arguments start.

I called you a bitch because you were being very rude and condescending when it wasn't called for.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by NachtSorcier

Ma'am, I did not call you a terrorist. I said that it would be terrorism if an organization or individual used violence or force to prevent others from making a living or eating what they want. You're taking everything I say personally and that is where the arguments start.

I called you a bitch because you were being very rude and condescending when it wasn't called for.

You said:

If somebody thinks that killing animals in any way, shape, or form is wrong, that's their right, but they cannot tell others what they can and can't eat. Do do otherwise is green terrorism, something PETA is famous for, or at least known for directly supporting.

So simply telling people that eating meat is wrong is terrorism in your book, which I do quite regularly, and I'm betting that if I were to raise my kids vegan you'd equate that to brain washing and terrorism as well. In any case, its not my fault that your arguments are stupid and hypocritical, I have tried to show you were your logic is flawed but if you think that is condenscending and rude, then there's no hope for you at all to ever debate against anyone without calling them a bitch, terrorists and B.C.E Jews (what does that even mean?) and say we deserve to burn in hell, and you should stay the hell away from debates.

And the same post in which you were so polite in saying having a good night, that was before you called me a bitch, so no you weren't polite beforehand, you were condescending from the get go with *comes in after eating a hamburger*.

[Joker_in_the_Pack]

Originally Posted by NachtSorcier

Well, almost immediately after my first post, Saya jumped in with staggering condescension and word-twisting, then JCC jumped on the condescension bandwagon. I used the words please and thank you and told everybody to have a great night, because I like to be polite. Not long after that the personal insults began.

I admit, Jillian, I spoke sarcastically to you when I should not have, that was wrong of me and I apologize. You first spoke to me after my defenses had already begun to come up. However, I still think your insults were very uncalled for, especially since I did not insult you in any way.

I think it's very unfair to call me an idiot or a dumb hick because I don't agree with your beliefs. I think I have been very fair when I said that I respect your (and when I say "your," I'm speaking to everybody) dietary choices and that I ask to receive that same respect.

All I ever wanted was to get along with you all in spite of our differences.

Not all the vegans called you names. I was very civil, and not only because I know you somewhat personally.

I can't speak for the others, but I can tell you why I don't eat meat.

It actually stemmed from my Anarchist beliefs. My anarchism is based on the idea that I do not believe any human has any right over the life of any other human. With this in mind, I realized, humans are simply animals. As such, the logic would apply that an animal has no inherent right over another animal. From that, all it took was some information from JCC to set the ball rolling.