The smallbore defensive shotgun

[Deadmanwalking_05]

The .410 is a small caliber shotgun (that's right I said caliber because that is how the .410 bore got it's name).

The firearm has a lighter weight,the user can carry more ammunition for the same space as the larger gauge shotguns (12,16,and 20),the payload per shell is less than it's larger counterparts, but it throws '000' buckshot at about the same velocity (and from what I've seen keeps them going down range tighter if using the right barrel)

Recoil is low meaning that the user can recover faster and get back on target.
Less recoil also means that the user will be more accurate with each round fired (no real worry of the shooter developing a flinch with prolonged useage).

Light weight,low recoil,pared with a magazine tube and fast reliable repeating action (pump in this case) makes it hard to beat for the intended role.

Anyone in the family can use it to defend themselves as well as other members of said family unit (young,old,large frame,small frame,injured and uninjured alike).


http://s1216.photobucket.com/albums/...t=DSCF0012.jpg

The weapon pictured in the link above is a Mossberg model 500 (more specifically the model 50104) it is wearing the 18.5 inch cylinder bore barrel of a Mossberg model 50455 (pictured below)

http://s1216.photobucket.com/albums/...t=DSCF0008.jpg

For defensive rounds the cylinder bore choke is recommended over the fixed full choke normally found on the specified model because it offers more consistent patterns with the larger shot needed ( '000' buck works very well for personal and home defense).

The cylinder bore barrel is also a very good launch pad for slugs (if needed).

The capacity for both weapons pictured is a total load out of six,5 in the magazine and one in the chamber with 2 1/2 -nch shells and a total load out of 5 if fully loaded with 3-inch shells.

Federal '000' buck shot shells carry 4 of the large pellets per shell (2 1/2 inch) or 5 pellets (3-inch shell).

While it lacks the payload and recoil of the larger guns it preforms better than many popular handgun rounds (.9mm,.45 acp,.38 special,ect) as far as stopping power.

(I nick named the wooden stocked shotgun above "Dr. feelgood" because the Motley crue song was playing in the bacground when the idea hit me).


Any Thoughts,Questions,or Ideas?

[Deadmanwalking_05]

I think this would have came in very handy for the home owners and shop keeps of london.

though the barrel length and capacity would make it illegal for said citizens to own under UK firearms laws.

If said laws were done away with things wouldv'e ended much sooner with far less damage to persons and property.

Also for those that like the history of weapons take a look.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_shotgun


one of the three listed applications seems to stand out more than the other given the subject of Londons troubles.

"Less lethal crowd control" *DMW Note- Think about that for a second...
Mob sees homes, mob advances and tries to burn homes down,home owners fire a few salvos of buck shot,mob gets a clue and scatters like the bunch of cowardly thugs they are*

Home owners/shopkeeps (good guys) : 1

Violent Mob (Bad guys) : 0

Winners: The population of London as a whole.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Deadmanwalking_05

Any Thoughts,Questions,or Ideas?

Alright. I'll bite.

I think the thing is garbage for anything but range shooting where fun is the only purpose. It's just too small to hunt with, shoot competitivly, and it's criminal to tell someone it's effective for home defense.

If you want to compare it to other shotgun rounds: It's shot pattern will be larger over distance, but it's effective pattern is significantly smaller across the board. The .410 shot mass cannot possibly create a pattern density that a 12 guage could, so it's not more accurate.

A lighter weight and less recoil is irrelevant for home defense. If that's an issue because of other family members, then they should either practice until they are comfortable, or I'd get a different weapon entirely, such as a hand gun.

More ammunition capacity is equally irrelevant when there is such a drastic difference in ammunition. I'd rather practice until I was comfortable with my marksmanship using the superior ammunition that I wouldn't need that extra round.

But that's just me. I don't know much about guns.

[Deadmanwalking_05]

Originally Posted by Versus

Alright. I'll bite.

I think the thing is garbage for anything but range shooting where fun is the only purpose. It's just too small to hunt with, shoot competitivly, and it's criminal to tell someone it's effective for home defense.

If you want to compare it to other shotgun rounds: It's shot pattern will be larger over distance, but it's effective pattern is significantly smaller across the board. The .410 shot mass cannot possibly create a pattern density that a 12 guage could, so it's not more accurate.

A lighter weight and less recoil is irrelevant for home defense. If that's an issue because of other family members, then they should either practice until they are comfortable, or I'd get a different weapon entirely, such as a hand gun.

More ammunition capacity is equally irrelevant when there is such a drastic difference in ammunition. I'd rather practice until I was comfortable with my marksmanship using the superior ammunition that I wouldn't need that extra round.

But that's just me. I don't know much about guns.

The .410 has been proven much more effective stopping power wise than any standard handgun round (.380acp,.9mm.,.40 s&w,.45acp,.38special,ect).

If magnum handguns are going to be thrown in you must also keep in mind the recoil associated with them (which will cause the user to take more time to recover between shots) not to mention the range of said weapon can be more a liability in the case of a shoot through or clean miss.

The limited range of a shotgun can also be seen as an advantage over any handgun or rifle of substantial power in urban environments.

The reason .410 was chosen is because it makes for a good family use defensive weapon,as well as an individual defensive weapon.

The old 12 is a good defensive arm to be sure but the heavy recoil that goes along with it (as well as weight and length of pull) can make it very hard to manage for smaller statured members of the household (as well as the elderly and the very young),which can and in most cases does cause the weapon to be less familar in the hands of those that might need it most.

The fun range time you mentioned would also translate into more familiarity,more familiarty builds confidence in ability,which leads to more hits on target in a highly stressful situation.

Keep in mind that just because it has less recoil and payload than other shotguns,doesn't make it any less formidable as a close range defensive option (with the proper ammunition).

[Deadmanwalking_05]

Patterns with '000' buck at normal defensive ranges from cylinder bore 18.5 - inch barrel.

http://s1216.photobucket.com/albums/...t=DSCF0010.jpg

The above pic is from contact distnace (home defense range,using the pistol grip only configuration)


http://s1216.photobucket.com/albums/...t=DSCF0009.jpg

This is at normal Self defense handgun range (21 feet/7 yards shot with wooden stock)

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Deadmanwalking_05

The .410 has been proven much more effective stopping power wise than any standard handgun round (.380acp,.9mm.,.40 s&w,.45acp,.38special,ect).

The limited range of a shotgun can also be seen as an advantage over any handgun or rifle of substantial power in urban environments.

That's the exact reason that I would recommend hollow points in a hand gun for home defense. The bullet expansion after impact transfers more energy to the target and causes a greater wound then jacketed or ball ammunition, and their limited penetration reduces the possibility of collateral damage.

The reason .410 was chosen is because it makes for a good family use defensive weapon,as well as an individual defensive weapon.

The old 12 is a good defensive arm to be sure but the heavy recoil that goes along with it (as well as weight and length of pull) can make it very hard to manage for smaller statured members of the household (as well as the elderly and the very young),which can and in most cases does cause the weapon to be less familar in the hands of those that might need it most.

I am inclined to disagree. I am 5'1" and weight 120 lbs. It doesn't get much smaller then that, and I don't have an issue with 12 guages.

The fun range time you mentioned would also translate into more familiarity,more familiarty builds confidence in ability,which leads to more hits on target in a highly stressful situation.

Like making a .22 conversion kit to, say, a 1911 that is normally stored with .45 ACP hollow points?

Keep in mind that just because it has less recoil and payload than other shotguns,doesn't make it any less formidable as a close range defensive option (with the proper ammunition).

Actually, that's exactly what makes it less formidable for any option. The only point that you can make about this and get away with is that you think it's cool or fun.

[Deadmanwalking_05]

Even with hollow points the ammount of kick ass going down range from a standard handgun round is nowhere near the firepower of the .410.

Sure it will still mushroom out and dump it's energy (unless the HP gets clogged with bits of clothing) but said down range energy is only (.45acp) 850-900 fps and is just a single projectile.

While the .410 (Winchester super X brand '000' buck shot 3-inch shell) is throwing five .33 caliber pellets out of the muzzle at a listed 1135 fps. (per trigger pull).

[Deadmanwalking_05]

Even the .410 judge revolver with the federal buck shot offering is throwing 4-5 out of the short revolver barrel at 775-850fps.

From a shotgun the federal load will top out at 1200 fps (2 1/2-inch 4 pellet load)

[Deadmanwalking_05]

also '000' Buckshot weighs in a 70 grains per pellet

70X4 = 280 grains of projectiles at 1200 FPS for the 2 1/2- inch Federal shells.

70X5= 350 grains of projectiles at 1135 FPS for the 3-inch Winchester shells.

(the listed velocities are from smoothbore shotguns not short barreled shallow rifled revolvers)

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Deadmanwalking_05

Even with hollow points the ammount of kick ass going down range from a standard handgun round is nowhere near the firepower of the .410.

Sure it will still mushroom out and dump it's energy (unless the HP gets clogged with bits of clothing) but said down range energy is only (.45acp) 850-900 fps and is just a single projectile.

While the .410 (Winchester super X brand '000' buck shot 3-inch shell) is throwing five .33 caliber pellets out of the muzzle at a listed 1135 fps. (per trigger pull).

You understand that "kick ass" is a function of both acceleration and mass, right?

So you're argueing that 4 or 5 smaller rounds that hit in different spots are going to have more force then a single larger round focusing in one spot? Do you know anything about ballistics?

[Grausamkeit]

It's obvious that he doesn't, Versus. Why are you bothering to argue with a troll?

[Deadmanwalking_05]

Originally Posted by Versus

You understand that "kick ass" is a function of both acceleration and mass, right?

So you're argueing that 4 or 5 smaller rounds that hit in different spots are going to have more force then a single larger round focusing in one spot? Do you know anything about ballistics?

Have you bothered looking at the pics of the targets I posted? At contact distances all the pellets are tighly packed together,one or two might be a little off kilter but the entire payload is going into the same area.

At normal defensive handgun range the pattern is opening up some but they are still packed very tightly meaning that the general targeted area they strike is going to be torn up something aweful. (even a 12 gauge with a cylinder bore barrel will group about the same at 5-7 yards there will just be more pellets)

[Deadmanwalking_05]

the foot pound energy is 762 at the muzzle with a slug from federal.

Not much compared to a 12 gauge but still more than a .45 acp with a 230 grain GI hardball round.

[Deadmanwalking_05]

The 230 grain Gi load measures in at around ... 352 foot pounds of energy (PMC brand)

[Ben Lahnger]

.

Um ... you're stroking your gun now, aren't you?

.

Hey, careful where you point that thing when it goes off!

.

[Deadmanwalking_05]

Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger

.

Um ... you're stroking your gun now, aren't you?

.

Hey, careful where you point that thing when it goes off!

.

Nope.

Could you get your mind out of the gutter for longer than 5 seconds at a time?

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Deadmanwalking_05

Have you bothered looking at the pics of the targets I posted? At contact distances all the pellets are tighly packed together,one or two might be a little off kilter but the entire payload is going into the same area.

At normal defensive handgun range the pattern is opening up some but they are still packed very tightly meaning that the general targeted area they strike is going to be torn up something aweful. (even a 12 gauge with a cylinder bore barrel will group about the same at 5-7 yards there will just be more pellets)

The same spot is different from the same area, man.

[Deadmanwalking_05]

Originally Posted by Versus

The same spot is different from the same area, man.

True but the same area means that the spot aimed for won't be the only place the pellets strike.

Think about it this way.

The whole load is aimed at the forehead,the forehead is struck,along with one or both eyes and through the mouth and out the back of the skull (depending on the distance as well as choke used).

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger

.

Um ... you're stroking your gun now, aren't you?

[

I just had flashbacks to that scene from Full Metal Jacket. I wonder what is in his other hand. Actually, no, I do not want to know.

[Deadmanwalking_05]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

I just had flashbacks to that scene from Full Metal Jacket. I wonder what is in his other hand. Actually, no, I do not want to know.

You're sick in the head.


Get help.

[Ben Lahnger]

YOU'RE the one showing an unhealthy obsession with guns around here. YOU'RE the one who needs to seek help ... which you've admitted recently in the thread YOU started about wanting the psycho ex-girlfriend (who tried to kill you) back.

Oh, and about this:

Originally Posted by Deadmanwalking_05

Could you get your mind out of the gutter for longer than 5 seconds at a time?

No.

Now shut up.

[Deadmanwalking_05]

You don't like me because I won't conform to the collective.

[Ben Lahnger]

I don't care about the collective. I don't like you because A) you've demonstrated some anti-social and borderline sociopath-like attitudes, B) you've demonstrated an unhealthy obsession with guns and most importantly C) you're a routinely rude person ... and I increasingly find myself responding in kind.

[Deadmanwalking_05]

Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger

I don't care about the collective. I don't like you because A) you've demonstrated some anti-social and borderline sociopath-like attitudes, B) you've demonstrated an unhealthy obsession with guns and most importantly C) you're a routinely rude person ... and I increasingly find myself responding in kind.

Maybe just maybe if you mass 'o' douche bags didn't act like well... a mass'o'douche bags I wouldn't be half a rude to you.

And as far as unhealthy obsessions go you don't have any room to talk ya' fuckin' perv.

[Ben Lahnger]

Well, let's see. Sex is a natural act. Having a healthy interest in it is ... healthy.

Firing a gun is not a natural act.

See where I was going with that?