Death Penalty No Longer Logically Defensible (Nguyen Tuong Van)

[Binkie]

I agree with you on the fact that it is hard to decern whether or not individuals are absolutely guilty. I don't, however, aggree with Cicero that you can't be 100% sure of someone's guilt in the case of murder or ****. Not without relying on conspiracy theories that have virtually no credibility in a court room. However, in the case of Jamal, there was alot of, to speak frankly, "bullshit" that was going on. At least on behalf of the police that were dealing with it. Alot of the cops that were, in part, responsible for cohercing statements ended up being convicted on those exact charges later on down the line (mid 90s). The people that they afflicted in trial with their actions were pardoned or reduced in sentencing.

There is alot of corruption going on, but the legal system weeds these guys out, or at least I'd like to think it does for the most part before anyone is put to death over their actions. In the case of Jamal, things were obviously askew in evidence gathering and the trial and his death pentalty sentencing was overturned. Rightfully so, I believe.

I'm not going to argue whether or not the Death Penalty is right or wrong. I just don't want to step into an arguement over morals. I will say this though; actions in some countries have consequences such as the death penalty. Unfortunetly that's a fact of life for some. Whether or not that's right or wrong, the legal system in the US carefully reviews weither or not a man or woman is truely guilty before putting them to death. Not all cases obviously point to someone being 100% guilty, but for the most part, the justices and jury put their trust in the trial, evidence, testimony, and Civil Law in general and base their decisions as best they can off of those to deal justice. When they are not correct, the Appeals or Federal courts step in.

[WolfMoon]

*I meant that no amount of forensic science or hard evidence is enough to put someone to death.*

Yeah cuz, ya know, Dahmer was just a real lonely and misunderstood individual. I know I like to keep a date in the deep freeze for those lonely nights, as well.

Seriously, despite the fact that Dahmer was the only serial killer that I've ever seen true remorse in, he deserved the brutal manner of death that he recieved. If I were a murderer I'd definately choose to be on Death Row instead of dying. Some people are cowards like that.

[Cicero]

I'm not saying don't punish them.

But on the aspect of serial killers... destroying perfect specimens of psychos like Dahmer and Chikatilo is such a waste anyway. We still know very little of how the minds of these killers work, which is why they should be kept alive so that we can find out. After all the pain these people have caused, the least we can do is use their brains as a way of learning (and possibly preventing) what leads them to commit such heinous acts.

I think that the death penalty is fair, as long as the person receiving it is completely guilty.

Also, when criminals are living better then people on the "outside," that has gone too far. You need to think about the amount of money the government puts into prisons and what luxuries criminals have.

Think about it. A bed, companionship (whether it's Bubba the ass fucking brute or Sam the Sissy), three meals a day, exercise time and if I remember correctly, pen pal programs.

That's insane. Really it is. People that are being PUNISHED are living a better life and WE are paying for it. Really. That pisses me off.

It's like giving Johnny the Pyro a chocolate bar for lighting his mother's dress on fire and sending Sammy the Savior to the corner because he tried to put it out.

Opinion over.

[CptSternn]

Is this thread going to turn into a discussion of prison conditions? I could go on for pages on that!

But one quick reply to the previous post -

Yeah, the people in there aren't living better than you. If you really think that, try it out. Having been in multiple prisons in multiple countries, I can give you first hand experience information.

Yeah, you get all that, and depending on where you are locked up in the states you can get your own TV, satellite connection for your cell, and a playstation. But you can't leave. So being locked in a 8x12 box, having to use the toilet in front of 4 other people all the time and being forced to eat food that is pretty much the same as high school cafeteria food every meal, well, it's not as posh as you think.

The US prison system is the largest in the world. There are more people in prison than any other country. In fact 14% of americans are currently in prison. 1 in every 5 americans is in prison, or has been in prison. This means, 20% of americans are cons or ex-cons. If you start screwing with their food, rights, and these things, thats a large group your going to anger. Also note that most prisons are well over 100% capacity, which is why the US builds so many new ones every year. If the prisoners wanted to riot, they take over the whole prison. The administration and government doesn't like trouble, so the idea is to keep the prisoners busy and happy so no one pays attention to the prison culture in the states.

If every prison cut back food, cut off pen pals, took away telly, you would have prison riots across the country. The national guard and state police are called in for 1 riot. When you have 5-10 prisons in each state, there isn't enough man power to stop that many riots, so ironically, the state in many ways is at the mercy of the prisoners.

Doesn't bother them though, as most peoplel don't know a few things about prisons. For example, you know why politicians love prisons? They inmates count as constituants. Thats right, if they have a prison that holds 300,000 prisoners in a Senators district, they count on the census. So a rep from a small county with maybe 5,000 people there looks like he comes from a large city cuz of the inamtes in his district. When the government gives him money for his district, they look at those overall census figures, and 5,000 people get the money allocated for 305,000, and barely any goes to the prisoners while the people in the small county will get the bulk.

I could go on for days, but you get the idea.

[Empty_Purple_Stars]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Having been in multiple prisons in multiple countries, I can give you first hand experience information.

Uhh What?

Multiple Prisons in Multiple Countries?

You can't just casually slide that in there and not expect to be asked;

" What the Fuck For? "

You have to raise some serious Hell to be sentenced to Prison time "around the world"..

So was that accurate?

You offered it as evidence, which means enquiring minds need more information..

[ExistentialDisorder]

Originally Posted by Cicero

I'm not saying don't punish them.

But on the aspect of serial killers... destroying perfect specimens of psychos like Dahmer and Chikatilo is such a waste anyway. We still know very little of how the minds of these killers work, which is why they should be kept alive so that we can find out. After all the pain these people have caused, the least we can do is use their brains as a way of learning (and possibly preventing) what leads them to commit such heinous acts.

There's ways to do that without keeping them alive. for example, there's a guy who was sentenced to death for some murder or other. He donated his body to science. They froze him and sliced him into onion-skin slices head to toe, which enabled them to study every little bit of him, to include his brain and its chemistry. Granted, it's not quite the same as the spoken word, but in some instances it can be better. And the spoken word is only as true as the one speaking it. psychiatrists can easily be fooled.

and an edit to add: dahmer was killed by his fellow inmates, not by his death sentence.

[Cicero]

Oh yeah, I forgot about that detail. All I remembered was that Dahmer was dead. I'm no expert in these matters, although I do have quite an interest in them.

Anyway studying serial killers after they're dead works, too, but all criminals are going to die eventually so why not just wait a few years? In the mean time you can study their living brains, which are just as valuable to science, if not more.

[CptSternn]

Politics. I tend to piss off as many people IRL as I do online. Worldwide. All the time.

But it doesn't stop me.

[WolfMoon]

Originally Posted by Cicero

Oh yeah, I forgot about that detail. All I remembered was that Dahmer was dead. I'm no expert in these matters, although I do have quite an interest in them.

Anyway studying serial killers after they're dead works, too, but all criminals are going to die eventually so why not just wait a few years? In the mean time you can study their living brains, which are just as valuable to science, if not more.

As interested as I am in the criminal mind, why would we bother keeping them alive? We haven't learned anything about Dahmer, Bundy or Gacey that would prevent more serial killers. Most of the stuff we already use to track or find serial killers can be learned from studying the cases, without the input of the killer himself.


If we were to keep future serial killers alive, it'd be like a circus freakshow for psychiatrists.

[Shi'ark]

Originally Posted by WolfMoon

As interested as I am in the criminal mind, why would we bother keeping them alive? We haven't learned anything about Dahmer, Bundy or Gacey that would prevent more serial killers. Most of the stuff we already use to track or find serial killers can be learned from studying the cases, without the input of the killer himself.


If we were to keep future serial killers alive, it'd be like a circus freakshow for psychiatrists.

Well if we kill them, then why not study their brain. There’s a lot you can tell from a pots-mortem brain as long as it is properly preserved.

It is best to keep them alive if only for study. I’m ok with that, screw their human rights. A lot more is now know about the anatomy of the brain thanks to studies in criminal behavior such as how the frontal lobes affect peoples morals. Many of the modern worlds most violent criminals are now know to have frontal lobe damage.

[WolfMoon]

See?

And they don't even have to be alive for us to know that!