Christian Goths

[Sanctus Dei]

Had you read my previous post in it's entirety my response would have been unneccesary. I never suggested anyone drop this subject, just the copycat thread, and merely suggested the topic move to the proper location... then you responded with an irrelevant issue.

So I guess I'll apologise for your lack of observation.

[Shi'ark]

Originally Posted by Sanctus Dei

Had you read my previous post in it's entirety my response would have been unneccesary. I never suggested anyone drop this subject, just the copycat thread, and merely suggested the topic move to the proper location... then you responded with an irrelevant issue.

So I guess I'll apologise for your lack of observation.

ok you're cranky so i'll let that one silp with out the outburst of aggression and verbal abuse. but don't talk to me like that.

[Sanctus Dei]

I won't talk to you in a condesending manner if you respect the rules of the board. Both Korova and I clearly stated this thread had no use as there is one for this subject already, yet you both argued an irrelavant point ad continued to post. You are no more immune to flame worthy mistakes then I, I just choose to respect the elders of this board and not argue out of place and without reason. Re-think your rebuttal sweetheart because this issue has alot less to do with my crankiness then your refusal to obey the rules.

[Shi'ark]

Ok rules. Fair enough, but I’m not hear to have arguments with people who have a superiority complex. It’s a lot better to talk with some respect for each other so how bout me and you just don’t talk. Now this is threadjacking so I’m not saying anything ells.

[Sanctus Dei]

*sigh*... Can we move this subject to the religon thread now?

[Shi'ark]

I know this argument is starting to get silly so I retract my last post.

[Sanctus Dei]

What argument?

[Pathogen.]

Originally Posted by Magpie_Tendencies

Can I ask why you found straight-edge goths unusual?

MAGPIE_TENDENCIES: I live a lifestyle similar to that & I don't call myself "Straight-Edge" at all. I don't drink alcohol or caffiene; I don't do any drugs; I don't eat processed, bleached-white granulated sugar [if you're going to eat sugar, consume the real deal--Turbinado, Hawaiian-style, straight from the cane]; I don't eat meat, animal innards [like liver & chicken gizzards] or eggs; I don't smoke cigars, pipe-tobacco or cigarettes [not even the clove kind]; and I don't wear fur, feathers or animal-based wool [& I wouldn't date/fuck anyone who does]. I live that kind of a life, but unlike those athlete-looking, clean-cut, politically-conservative, aggro, macho-ass creatures from the Straight-Edge subculture, I don't force my lifestyle on other people. If someone smokes a cigarette directly near me on a subway train, for instance, I'm going to walk to another seat on the other side of the train. Same goes for if someone smokes hashish around me [which is the hardest drug I've ever done]; I don't want to get a damn contact buzz. And if I decide to date some woman & they land a kiss on my lips, I don't want to taste sirloin steak when I kiss her back; I won't date a carnivore at all [& from my experience, carnivores are the most notorious--next to Straight-Edgers & most "born-again" Protestants--for forcing their lifestyle/diet-choice on other people]. To live clean & sober is my own choice, but I also believe that other people chose their habits & it keeps them --for want of a better term--content. So I'm a strong proponent in "live-&-let-live" or "live-&-let-die". Best of all, I'm not a religious man at all & I practise this. I'm Agnostic & I value other people's individual choices/freedoms.

In closing, I don't find "Straight-Edge Goths" unusual at all because I am one. I just don't care to call myself "Straight-Edge" because I don't want to associate myself with a subculture that has folks who will beat down someone severely just for drinking vodka or beer around them.

[bunnicula]

Originally Posted by Sanctus Dei

Um.. not to undermine the quest for knowledge or anything, but seriously.... is this topic valid enough to necesitate an entire fucking thread?

(Plus... as Korova has stated there's a thread for this already with a wider subject matter)

My original question was not just about religion, but about lifestyles and philosophy. More specifically, traditional values vs. non-traditional lifestyle. Everybody seems to be getting bent out of shape over it, and that intrigues me even more. Why is it such a sensitive topic?

I haven't spent much time around Christians except for my family, non of whom are goth in the least. My parents actually used to throw away my black clothes and tell me I was going to Hell because of my lifestyle, which included music with *gasp* foul language, drinking, smoking, reading about alternative religions, and being generally open-minded. I find it interesting that other "goth" kids did not have this experience with their parents or their church. Or if they did, how did they reconcile the rejection and still continue to believe in the religion in which they were raised.

Most of the "open-minded" people whom I have met in the past 10 or 15 years have openly rejected Christianity as well as any form of organized religion because of childhood experiences similar to mine.

If this offends people, sorry. I don't get it.

[bunnicula]

Oh, sorry. Here is an old thread on this topic, though not exactly the same as what I was asking.

Christian?

[Empty_Purple_Stars]

It's not the same.

Thats why I left this thread alone.

Try not to take some of the frustration too personally Sweetie.

Religion is a topic that has been beat to death with a VERY big stick for a looooooooooooong time. It tends to give many of us a rash.

Plus personally I feel too much emphasis is put on the whole "Goth" label. But that's another rant.

If you look at some of the more liberal forms of Christianity, whether kids want to be Goth or not isn't such a huge issue.

I was raised in a wonderful Non-Denominational Christian Church. I was an active member of my youth group. I also wore a doo rag, and painted my nails black, and dyed my hair several different colors. Everyone else is the Youth Group dressed in similar fashion. For Church. Now granted this was 1984 or so, but it paints the picture well enough.

The minister had no problem with our mode of dress, or music. It wasn't about our clothes.

We could be whoever we wanted to be. Unconditionally.

They understood that "Goth" didn't = Evil

That is a stereotype, and in no way it is unusual to equate Goths with Christianity. One doesn't negate the other.

Now certainly in the more radical sects of Christianity, "Goth" may certainly be perceived as a negative and evil thing. But many of these same radical groups also think dancing is evil, so this isn't a shock.

I know as many "Christian Goths" as I do Buddhist or Hindu Goths.

It is a very diverse culture, and a true melting pot of ethnic and religious diversity.

[Mood]

To add to your story, when I was growing up in the Catholic church that I did, there were some teenagers that dressed a little "oddly" (as the women would say). Nobody thought they were evil kids, they just thought them ridiculous because of the simplistic lifestyle the congragation likes. They would see being Goth as being youthful and selfish, but they would also assume you would grow out of it. It was just a teen fad to the Catholic parents I knew...

[Queenofdarkness57]

I'm a Christian and I'm a goth. I go to church, I celebrate easter ( with the little bunnies and stuff yes) and Christmas. I pray to Jesus and I believe in heaven. Nevertheless, I listen to Gothic Rock, I like darkness, I wear black all the time. Why is that so unusual I dont get it? Why is everyone concentrating on Christianity lately. There are a lot of other religions out there, too.

[tenet_2012]

Originally Posted by Queenofdarkness57

I'm a Christian and I'm a goth. I go to church, I celebrate easter ( with the little bunnies and stuff yes) and Christmas. I pray to Jesus and I believe in heaven. Nevertheless, I listen to Gothic Rock, I like darkness, I wear black all the time. Why is that so unusual I dont get it? Why is everyone concentrating on Christianity lately. There are a lot of other religions out there, too.

I don't mean to dog what you believe in but you asked...

Christianity is just soooo unbelievable. I mean it is like a fairy tale. Some guy, supposedly the "son of the invisible man in the sky who can't let us know that he is even there", walks around two thousand years ago preaching. Then, he is put to death for breaking Roman law, but he died for us (somehow this doesn't make any sense either). And three days later he magicly comes back to life and rises to "heaven" leaving us with the message that he is coming back. And has yet to.

That is unbelievable. Unless your programed to believe it or are just downright nuts.

[Empty_Purple_Stars]

Originally Posted by tenet_2012

That is unbelievable. Unless your programed to believe it or are just downright nuts.

Not to be a child, but thats really not a fair thing to say..

[Queenofdarkness57]

Originally Posted by tenet_2012

I don't mean to dog what you believe in but you asked...

Christianity is just soooo unbelievable. I mean it is like a fairy tale. Some guy, supposedly the "son of the invisible man in the sky who can't let us know that he is even there", walks around two thousand years ago preaching. Then, he is put to death for breaking Roman law, but he died for us (somehow this doesn't make any sense either). And three days later he magicly comes back to life and rises to "heaven" leaving us with the message that he is coming back. And has yet to.

That is unbelievable. Unless your programed to believe it or are just downright nuts.

I agree with you Tenet. It is inbelievable and so...Fiction. But that's what we call "Faith". You can't see it, but it's up to you to believe it. It's is something very hard and difficult to accept, and that is why, in my opinion, Christians should be respected. I have my doubts of course, and I don't belive in everything the church states. But I am Christian after all, that's me. And when I see people eveywhere offending what I believe in, it hurts. Let everyone mind their own business. Btw Tenet I still like you. * hugs*

Then, he is put to death for breaking Roman law, but he died for us (somehow this doesn't make any sense either).

I don't get it either. I tried asking priests about it, but not one of them gave me a clear answer. I don't think they know either. hehe

[Saya]

Is this a bad time to mention the "Jesus Was A Goth" website? ^_^

I don't know any Christian goths, but I do know a lot of Christians who are, uh, unconventional(?). They focus mainly on Jesus' message of love and acceptance. I volunteered at a Christian Bible camp two years ago, and I had a blast with these people. My favourite person there had about thirteen piercings all over his face, and one on his back, and I think he has some tattoos now. They didn't mind at all that I'm Buddhist, and I really came away thinking more positively of Christians.

So when someone says you can't be Christian and goth, I have to laugh.

[Pathogen.]

Originally Posted by Empty_Purple_Stars

I know as many "Christian Goths" as I do Buddhist or Hindu Goths.

It is a very diverse culture, and a true melting pot of ethnic and religious diversity.

E_P_S: I've only met 1 Hindu Goth in my life since moving to S.F. 3 years ago: Caroline Blind [ex-Sunshine Blind vocalist/guitarist/songwriter, currently working at DNA Lounge; occupation: unknown to me.]. Besides her, none. on another messageboard that I'm on [ www.mygoth.com ], I know 2 Christian Gothic women: Trinity & Dusks Embrace. Good folks. On this one, our Middle Eastern regular Queen Of Darkness57.

Obviously, your upbringing in an Non-Denominational church was a good & proactive one, compared to my own. On top of that, the minister had no grievances about your clothing/cosmetics-of-choice; it was strictly about how strong your religious beliefs were. He accpeted you for who you already were as a person, instead of moulding you into someone that you weren't. He knew that what Protestant fundamentalists & others have said about the Gothic subculture was false.
Not so in my own childhood, as the churches that me & the fam attended [including my uncle & aunt's own, which began in the garage & moved its way into 4 or 5 different buildings throughout Hampton & Newport News, Virginia] had a strict dress-code & the ministers [including my own racist bastard-ass uncle-by-marriage] carried such things out accordingly. Everyone had to wear formal clothing. Period. And to them, even Heavy Metal=evil.
On top of that, from age 3 to age 18, I had a hella narrow interpretation of Protestantism forced on me. And that resulted in 3 horrible personal experiences with it. Each time, the cause was the same: Because my elders/older cousins alike kept drilling it into me again & again.

After the 3rd time, I had the sense to go to the local library near my apartment in downtown Hampton & learned about how organised religion--Christianity, in this case-- really changed the world. For the worst. It brought us horrible events such as the Crusades, the Dutch slave trade, the ongoing abortion debate from the early 1970s onwards, the Irish native Catholic vs. English Protestant rivalry in Ireland [& the religious flavour of that rivalry was just an excuse for English colonialism], terrorist attacks on abortion clinics, corrupt televangelists [late 1980s-early 1990s], pedophilic Catholic priests, etc.

It's shit like that kind of history & what I went through personally with my folks is why I became Agnostic 17 years ago.

I apologise for the autobiography and all, but organised religion gets under my skin, too.

[spookypurple]

Saya - I've just seen that website - excellent!

Anyways, I go to church (the kids I teach in Sunday School seem to think I'm 'well cool' haha "You wear lossa black an' lace an' boots an' stuff").

Chaque un a son gout.

[gruel]

Originally Posted by tenet_2012

Then, he is put to death for breaking Roman law, but he died for us

The Romans didn't just wake up one morning and think to themselves:"Today would be a great time to execute that 'Jesus' dude over there".Actually they brought several charges against him that were based in his teaching,the most important crime he was accused of committing was his insistence of calling himself a ''King".Suffice to say,this flew in the face of Caesar and enraged many of the higher-ups of his council.They had also finally achieved their fill of his years of preaching about love and tolerance(Not to mention another Kingdom that wasn't ruled by Caesar).

When Jesus was crucified,God laid upon him all the sin in the world,past,present,and future;so that the human race would have a chance for eternal life(He died in our place).

As for the question:"Can one be Goth and Christian at the same time?" I'd have to answer Yes,but not in all circumstances(In fact it's very hard to accomplish..sort of like being a bartender when you don't drink).What you are wearing on the outside of your body has no bearing on your spiritual mindset I know,but it can reflect what views or opinions you support.So for example:if you're wearing pentagrams and following the Church of Satan;then I don't really think you're a Gothic-Christian.That's stereotypical I realize,but it all depends on where your mind is at,what exactly are you feeding it.You can't have it both ways,and it's too easy to just believe if you mix a little bit of religion with the rest of your 99% Gothic lifestyle,then that's good enough to squeak by.

Wearing a cross is not going to get you into heaven any more then having a Bible in your house and quoting scipture.

[spookypurple]

Which gets randomly quoted more, do you think - The Bible or Shakespeare?

I came across a cracking scripture the other day - it describes Esau as a "cunning hunter". Oh boy, you'd have to be careful when reading that one out! How I chuckled....

Apologies for both going off the track and bringing the tone down. Can anyone lend me a horse-hair shirt or a whip?

[Sanctus Dei]

On the note of the Fairytale comment... isn't most religious background based on passed down stories of past occurances? Not a single one of us was consiously present to neither prove or disprove any preaching done by any religious figure. In my opinion, whatever your heart choses to follow is all your own, be it a god or not... I'm just damn sure you'll findout how wrong or right you were when you pass your last breath. But for now why the hell is everyone so worried about it? Just be who you are and do right by other people, if you live your life well isnt that all that really matters?

(Besides all this labeling makes my head hurt)

[bunnicula]

Pathogen, I appreciate you sharing your story. It seems as though you have had experiences with Christianity that are similar to mine. I also consider myself an agnositc for many of the reasons that you state.

Sanctus, I really don't like all these labels either, but it is really difficult to talk about something if you don't give it a name.

[TheKorovaMilkbar]

Originally Posted by bunnicula

My original question was not just about religion, but about lifestyles and philosophy. More specifically, traditional values vs. non-traditional lifestyle. Everybody seems to be getting bent out of shape over it, and that intrigues me even more. Why is it such a sensitive topic?

I haven't spent much time around Christians except for my family, non of whom are goth in the least. My parents actually used to throw away my black clothes and tell me I was going to Hell because of my lifestyle, which included music with *gasp* foul language, drinking, smoking, reading about alternative religions, and being generally open-minded. I find it interesting that other "goth" kids did not have this experience with their parents or their church. Or if they did, how did they reconcile the rejection and still continue to believe in the religion in which they were raised.

Most of the "open-minded" people whom I have met in the past 10 or 15 years have openly rejected Christianity as well as any form of organized religion because of childhood experiences similar to mine.

If this offends people, sorry. I don't get it.

Your plight is an understandable one. But just as an example from someone who was on the other side of the spectrum:

My parents gave me a choice. My church also gave me a choice. I could live how I like, but I would have to answer for it in the afterlife (which I have not entirely figured out yet). I chose to live good, because it made me feel good. Selfish, it seems, but everything boils down to selfishness in the end. But there is nothing at all wrong with that. In our selfish deeds, we can create good just as equally as evil. The cause (our selfishness) is the cause regardless of the slew of outcomes that may result.

[TheKorovaMilkbar]

Sorry didn't get to finish.

...that may result. The times we think about God, are the only times we don't think of ourselves.

So just as I chose religion, others did not. We all have our own reasons for going down the path we chose. But that is all of our own worries and would take a lifetime to explain down to detail. Yes, there are many close-minded christians. Millions. But I don't have anything to do with them. This belief is my own choice, not something force-fed to me, so I didn't have to try to draw back away from it.