Why 'pop-punk' is not punk.....

[horrorgirl]

Originally Posted by Jane13

XD yeah, that'd help.

Are you interested in the Deathrock scene at all? I've heard good things about that scene on the West Coast... old school goths seem to like it because it's such a diverse scene... but that could be REALLY biased because I read mostly stuff on band pages. I loveit because it sounds more like oldschool goth than anything that's really being made now, but it also has a lot of punk influence and stuff from other genres. *shrug* I don't live anywhere with a goth scene, so I go to punk shows when I can. I like the local midwestern bands... some of them are really good!

I started listening to Specimen and Gene Loves Jezebel 20 years ago so I have liked Deathrock for a very long time. The 'new' deathrock scene isn't really too original since it's recycling music and fashion that was being done back 20 years ago. I feel that a lot of the newer deathrock bands are trying too hard to be experimental. They end up looking like pretentious twats and sounding like poop. It's becoming all about fashion which is a shame. There are people getting deathhawks overnight and calling themselves deathrock. It's the same kind of crap that is happening in the goth subculture.It was socially unacceptable to look,or like, deathrock during most of the 90's in clubs, now all of a sudden it's in to 'become' deathrock. Its like it is becoming the 'new' thing to do. Want to be look different than everybody else? Become deathrock. I know that I sound jaded, but that is how I have being seeing things. The older folk who have been into it for a long time don't seem to be as into the fashion aspect as the younger set who weren't around the first time.

[Jane13]

*shrug* hm, well at least I learned something. I have to say I really do like bands like Cinema Strange and The Phantom Limbs regardless... I guess that makes me an annoying teenaged posuer (just kidding... I defnitely respect your views, but that doesn't change my tastes).

*edit* it really sucks that all the good stuff turns to crap as soon as a large number of people find out about it... but when you live in a town like I do it's it's a lot easier to be considered "different"... you'd be hard pressed to fin anyone who knows what a rivet head or a deathrocker is. I have somewhat of a limited perspective on "scenes". I only know what I like, what I don't, and basic scene history.

[horrorgirl]

I think what changes subcultures is when a group of people enter them not knowing anything about the true nature of the subculture and who base their ideas about the subculture on outward appearances and media misinterpretations. Instead of digging deeper into them they dress up to play the part and have no further understanding than that. Instead of the subculture fitting into who they are, they themselves try to fit into the subculture.

[Sobeh]

Not that I disagree, but I wonder at the phrase 'true nature', if only because it smacks of elitism. Of course, a subculture is only that if it isn't mainstream, but there is something to say for people that come into a culture like, say, Goth, and even if they have the wrong image of it, one wonders why it is that they are attracted to it in the first place, and I ask: does anyone know? Has anyone asked these youthful yet ignorant folk what it is about Goth or Punk that they find attractive? If you get past the answers they give that they thiunk are correct, and instead get the answers they truly feel, I wonder what you would find. Maybe your critique would get borne out, but then again, maybe some of them deserve more credit than that.

[horrorgirl]

Originally Posted by Sobeh

Not that I disagree, but I wonder at the phrase 'true nature', if only because it smacks of elitism. Of course, a subculture is only that if it isn't mainstream, but there is something to say for people that come into a culture like, say, Goth, and even if they have the wrong image of it, one wonders why it is that they are attracted to it in the first place, and I ask: does anyone know? Has anyone asked these youthful yet ignorant folk what it is about Goth or Punk that they find attractive? If you get past the answers they give that they thiunk are correct, and instead get the answers they truly feel, I wonder what you would find. Maybe your critique would get borne out, but then again, maybe some of them deserve more credit than that.

I did not mean to sound elitist. I am sure that if a lot of them were more honest with themselves that they would feel better about who they are, instead of trying to 'act' a certain way. It doesn't make sense to act angry when you are not angry, or act depressed when you are not depressed. I met some really cool teens in the punk scene recently, so I know that some younger folk have their heads screwed on straight. I think peer pressure these days is enormous and I really feel kind of bad for kids trying to wade through it these days.

[Pathogen.]

Originally Posted by horrorgirl

I started listening to Specimen and Gene Loves Jezebel 20 years ago so I have liked Deathrock for a very long time. The 'new' deathrock scene isn't really too original since it's recycling music and fashion that was being done back 20 years ago. I feel that a lot of the newer deathrock bands are trying too hard to be experimental. They end up looking like pretentious twats and sounding like poop. It's becoming all about fashion which is a shame. There are people getting deathhawks overnight and calling themselves deathrock. It's the same kind of crap that is happening in the goth subculture.It was socially unacceptable to look,or like, deathrock during most of the 90's in clubs, now all of a sudden it's in to 'become' deathrock. Its like it is becoming the 'new' thing to do. Want to be look different than everybody else? Become deathrock. I know that I sound jaded, but that is how I have being seeing things. The older folk who have been into it for a long time don't seem to be as into the fashion aspect as the younger set who weren't around the first time.

HORRORGIRL: The Deathrock thing that's in the Gothic-Industrial scene these days is nothing but a rerun to me. Despite that, there are a few good bands that I dig a lot. I'd rather buy & listen to The Phantom Limbs, Black Ice or The Vanishing albums than buy & listen to any "Futurepop" crap by VNV Nation. I'd rather go see Tragic Black live than see [again] a Futurepop-Industrial show with Stromkern. And for the record, I dress in 3 specific Gothic fashion styles. Among 1 of them is the Deathrock [or Oldschool Gothic] style. This is what I'm confortable with. In a way, it's my way of staying in touch with my Punk roots. I see the Deathrock style [in music & in fashion] as being no different from the Undead/Son Of Sam/Misfits/Samhain/Order Of The Fly approach to Hardcore Punk ["Horror Punk"]. Feel free to dispute this if you want.

[Pathogen.]

Originally Posted by horrorgirl

I have always listened to both punk and goth and have been in both subcultures. Back from 88-92 I would go to a goth club one night then to a punk club the next. What was interesting is that I saw close minded people in both subcultures.In the punk scene it was the street/gutter punks against anybody who had a decent home. Seriously. In their eyes if you still got along with your parents,did not live in Berkeley and drove a car that you were nothing but a suburban brat.What was funny was that the vast majority of them were from out of state and had only lived in the San Francisco area for a short time. I didn't go to the clubs when the whole 'pop punk' crap exploded, so I didn't have to witness that carnage. When I started going back to punk shows starting in 2001 I saw that things were a bit different.It seemed a lot more catty. Again, the people who were the biggest dicks were people from out of state or from L.A.. I met some really cool people though so not all hope is lost.The only icky factor of going to shows again is having guys 15 years younger than me picking up on me. HA!

I have dropped completely out of the goth subculture because I have had some pretty horrid experiences with promoters/djs/etc.....involved in it. I think it has become a total mess with no hope of redemption. It's has become nothing more than a passive agressive
fashion show.

HORRORGIRL: For one, I fucking hate Lost Angeles with a motherfucking passion. So the Punks down there being dicks toward you come as no surprise to me, since they're obsessed more with fashion [a leftover behavioural trait from the 1990s "Pop-Punk" explosion]. Second, most of my friends are Punks. I can actually be myself around them more than I can around a nightclub or room full of other Goths. They accept me for who I am instead of giving me shit about it. In every little circle I'm in, which has either majority Punks, majority Anarchists or majority Radical Gays, I'm usually either the only Black dude or the only Goth. Third, every once in a while, I'll have someone 10-17 years younger than me hitting on me, too. Unless they're 21 and over, NO FUCKING DICE. Fourth, You were hella lucky that you didn't witness or become a victim of that "carnage" the way I did. Then again, I don't regret some of it either [just the whole being backstabbed by 4 dozen people & becoming a hermit thing]. I always had Gothic affectations in my way of exploring/enjoying life. Even as a teenaged high school Metalhead, I've always worn trenchcoats, wore black clothes, slept in a bedroom with the shades down at all times [even when it was bright & sunny], liked vampire novels & movies, wore silver jewelry, visited boneyards during sundown & so on. Fifth, I still spend time in both subcultures, just like you did a decade ago. The only difference is: I spend more time in the Hardcore Punk scene because that's where I have the most friends/acquaintences/peers. I often wish I had that many friends in this subculture that I identify with the most. Then again, like you said, it's a big passive-aggressive fashion show. And can be elitist as fuck towards newcomers. [That's definitely true of the Hollywood Gothic-Industrial scene, which is why I fucking hate it.]

[horrorgirl]

Originally Posted by Pathogen.

HORRORGIRL: The Deathrock thing that's in the Gothic-Industrial scene these days is nothing but a rerun to me. Despite that, there are a few good bands that I dig a lot. I'd rather buy & listen to The Phantom Limbs, Black Ice or The Vanishing albums than buy & listen to any "Futurepop" crap by VNV Nation. I'd rather go see Tragic Black live than see [again] a Futurepop-Industrial show with Stromkern. And for the record, I dress in 3 specific Gothic fashion styles. Among 1 of them is the Deathrock [or Oldschool Gothic] style. This is what I'm confortable with. In a way, it's my way of staying in touch with my Punk roots. I see the Deathrock style [in music & in fashion] as being no different from the Undead/Son Of Sam/Misfits/Samhain/Order Of The Fly approach to Hardcore Punk ["Horror Punk"]. Feel free to dispute this if you want.

I,too,would rather attend a deathrock show than have to sit through one that is futurepop in nature. I have always considered Samhain/Miusfits to be deathrock in nature, so I don't disagree witht that at all. Samhain is one of my all time favorite bands and I wish Glenn would have made more of that music.

[horrorgirl]

Originally Posted by Pathogen.

HORRORGIRL: For one, I fucking hate Lost Angeles with a motherfucking passion. So the Punks down there being dicks toward you come as no surprise to me, since they're obsessed more with fashion [a leftover behavioural trait from the 1990s "Pop-Punk" explosion]. Second, most of my friends are Punks. I can actually be myself around them more than I can around a nightclub or room full of other Goths. They accept me for who I am instead of giving me shit about it. In every little circle I'm in, which has either majority Punks, majority Anarchists or majority Radical Gays, I'm usually either the only Black dude or the only Goth. Third, every once in a while, I'll have someone 10-17 years younger than me hitting on me, too. Unless they're 21 and over, NO FUCKING DICE. Fourth, You were hella lucky that you didn't witness or become a victim of that "carnage" the way I did. Then again, I don't regret some of it either [just the whole being backstabbed by 4 dozen people & becoming a hermit thing]. I always had Gothic affectations in my way of exploring/enjoying life. Even as a teenaged high school Metalhead, I've always worn trenchcoats, wore black clothes, slept in a bedroom with the shades down at all times [even when it was bright & sunny], liked vampire novels & movies, wore silver jewelry, visited boneyards during sundown & so on. Fifth, I still spend time in both subcultures, just like you did a decade ago. The only difference is: I spend more time in the Hardcore Punk scene because that's where I have the most friends/acquaintences/peers. I often wish I had that many friends in this subculture that I identify with the most. Then again, like you said, it's a big passive-aggressive fashion show. And can be elitist as fuck towards newcomers. [That's definitely true of the Hollywood Gothic-Industrial scene, which is why I fucking hate it.]

What I have always liked about the harcore punk scene is that people,for the most part,speak their minds and are up front. If a person is a dick and you call them on it you will get respect from people rather than in the goth scene where people will tell you that you have no right to say something like that. The hardcore punk scene is less passive agressive in nature. I have always been really outspoken and that aspect of my personality got me into a HUGE amount of trouble in the goth scene. People were lying assholes, I called them on it, and a bunch of people say that I am a jealous bitch. Jealous of what? Of being a backstabbing idiot? Also, it was really rare for me to connect on a deep level with anybody in the goth scene. I have dropped completely out of the goth scene and once my boyfriend and I move to Seattle I am going to start participating in the hardcore scene again. I want to go to a lot of shows, volunteer for political action groups, and feel like I am contributing something to the subculture. A part of me will always be 'goth' in nature but I will never again participate in that subculture.

[chloegoth]

Originally Posted by horrorgirl

I started listening to Specimen and Gene Loves Jezebel 20 years ago so I have liked Deathrock for a very long time. The 'new' deathrock scene isn't really too original since it's recycling music and fashion that was being done back 20 years ago. I feel that a lot of the newer deathrock bands are trying too hard to be experimental. They end up looking like pretentious twats and sounding like poop. It's becoming all about fashion which is a shame. There are people getting deathhawks overnight and calling themselves deathrock. It's the same kind of crap that is happening in the goth subculture.It was socially unacceptable to look,or like, deathrock during most of the 90's in clubs, now all of a sudden it's in to 'become' deathrock. Its like it is becoming the 'new' thing to do. Want to be look different than everybody else? Become deathrock. I know that I sound jaded, but that is how I have being seeing things. The older folk who have been into it for a long time don't seem to be as into the fashion aspect as the younger set who weren't around the first time.

Oh, thank goodness... I'm not the only one who feels this way. I'm not terribly into most deathrock (though some of it appeals to me), and I have a friend who did the whole deathhawk thing overnight (literally). One day she was listening to EBM, and the next she was saying that she never liked it and only liked deathrock. Neither one of us is old enough to have experienced it the first time around (except maybe peripherally, as infants and toddlers), so it bothers me that she's constantly down on the things I like, just because I haven't caught on to the whole deathrock craze.

Yech. Give me good old-fashioned punk music any day of the week. Or the original deathrock.

I'll stop whining now, I swear.

[Pathogen.]

Originally Posted by horrorgirl

What I have always liked about the harcore punk scene is that people,for the most part,speak their minds and are up front. If a person is a dick and you call them on it you will get respect from people rather than in the goth scene where people will tell you that you have no right to say something like that. The hardcore punk scene is less passive agressive in nature. I have always been really outspoken and that aspect of my personality got me into a HUGE amount of trouble in the goth scene. People were lying assholes, I called them on it, and a bunch of people say that I am a jealous bitch. Jealous of what? Of being a backstabbing idiot? Also, it was really rare for me to connect on a deep level with anybody in the goth scene. I have dropped completely out of the goth scene and once my boyfriend and I move to Seattle I am going to start participating in the hardcore scene again. I want to go to a lot of shows, volunteer for political action groups, and feel like I am contributing something to the subculture. A part of me will always be 'goth' in nature but I will never again participate in that subculture.

HORRORGIRL: You're a woman after my own heart. I can't stand elitism or backstabbing either. The outspokenness is 1 of the things I like about the Punk scene & why I spend more time in it. By nature, I'm outspoken. I get it from my mother.

[Ariasola]

Me and my dad had really good relationship , you see my dad is a gutterpunk , I traveled w/ him for a few years ..and the new "punk" whatever wanna be's make me sick , in their new shiny clothes and their clean skin and their unbruised bodies. Their freshly Ironed Patches and their bullshit.

Me and my Dad travelled ... We patched by need , these kids we met didn't even know who GG ALLIN was ? Wore his patch and didn't even know who he was. Thye dinna drink they dinna travel , and they dinna even have an originality to them. They smelled nice and lived a cushy life and just dressed the part. I and my dad. That was different , not above eatin outta garbage cans , drinkin togather , fightin side by side train hoppin , fuck the wanna be whatever's . Never known what hunger is , never know the hillarity of pissin on peoples front porches , never known the delightfull hardships of life.

I once got in a huge fight w/ a nfew of these kids that saw me and my dad sittin on a corner spangeing and they just laughed.
I got up and they just looked at me , i'm like what the fuch are you ?
Some wannabe trash.
You live in a house
Your are clean and trimmed and neat ...bet you even take your mohawk down for church...
Pissed em , off and they turned around and tried to kick my dad's guitar , what a shame.
Wanna be punks or whatever the hell they were.
I was a 114 lb lil girl and i kicked all 3 of their asses.

I apologize if have gone off rant like.
Just these whaever they are bitches just make me sick.
~A

[Blushing Heliophobe]

Horrorgirl, I totally agree...except for one minor point.

I don't think NOFX is safe. As demonstrated by these lyrics...

"You're Wrong"

You're wrong about virtues of Christianity
And you're wrong if you agree with Sean Hannity
If you think that pride is about nationality, you're wrong

You're wrong when you imprison people turning tricks
And you're wrong about trickle down economics
If you think that punk rock doesn't mix with politics, you're wrong

You're wrong for hating queers and eating steers
If you kill for the thrill of the hunt
You're wrong 'bout wearing fur and not hating Ann Coulter
Cause she's a cunted cunt

You're wrong if you celebrate Columbus Day
And you're wrong if you think there will be a Judgement Day
If you're a charter member of the NRA, you're wrong

You're wrong if you support capital punishment
And you're wrong if you don't question your government
If you think her reproductive rights are inconsequent, you're wrong

You're wrong fighting Jihad, your blind faith in God
Your religions are all flawed,
You're wrong about drug use, when its not abuse
I hope you never reproduce

You're getting high on the downlow
A victim of Cointelpro
You're wrong and will probably never know


but...that's just me...