President

[AlKilyu]

Originally Posted by MrMaelstrom

I didn't offend you.

Indirectly you did, just like a...coward?

You offended me.

I say "douchbag" and you take that to heart?

Sure. It's a horrible disease. I didn't show either compassion for it or otherwise. I referred to the physical condition of one of the ailments patients, I believe.
If Osama Bin Laden turns HIV positive, I hope it develops into a slow, agnizing, full-blown AIDS. Am I taking an insentive position on the disease? No. Am I insulting or offending in any way people who suffer such a disease? No..

In retrospect you did not offend the disease or any involved, on that I concede.

The ban itself comes from the general stand taken by pro-lifers,

Again, the world over? With guns to people's heads?

a stand she very much influenced with her role as the real policy maker in two consecutive Reagan administrations.

Are there any facts behind that lame old joke? I'd be curious to see them.

Oh, as a foreign citizen, then, should I feel I have no right to comment on U.S. issues, despite the fact that they, from everyday life to your choice of president and foreign policies, influence my everyday life and the life of billions around the world?

No I'm saying there is nothing stopping you and your own from doing whatever the fuck you want. It's a helluva lot easier to sit on your ass and blame the U.S. for the world's problems. I'm not saying that about your countrymen, just whiny assholes like you. Direct enough of an insult?

Neither are you, really, but reading my posts, others of your level might actually learn something.

pretentious

adj 1: making claim to or creating an appearance of (often undeserved) importance or distinction.

[WolfMoon]

Originally Posted by WolfMoon

I just think he's a douche-bag for be-littling the horror the soldiers went through.

I don't see how he's done that, but I might have missed something (not being cyinical right now).[/quote]

There was a taping of him interrogating a soldier after Vietnam.He was basically asking the guy why he didn't deserve being treated as bad as he was when he got home.I'll have to find the interview again.I can't remember word-for-word.He was basically being an asshole.

And I don't remember ever hearing about Kerry being a soldier,but Bush was.Definately not a grunt though.....he had money.


www.anomilies-unlimited.com ,interesting site

[MrMaelstrom]

The whole debate would be meaningless if people knew/agreed on when is a human being.

Any termination of pregnancy before such a date is (a last resort) form of birth control and nothing more.

But we don't agree on when something ceasses to be something and becomes a human being.

Its a matter of PERSONAL choice. As abortion should be. Any deviation from that can easily slip into either the chinese "one couple, one son/daughter" policy which results in abortions of female foetuses and babies every year by the hundreds of thousands, or the typically male oriented rule of law: women become baby factories because God/Allah told us to do it, as was Europe for hundreds of years and as the former Arab empire still is.

If you're not pregnant, mind your own business.

If you're pregnant, mind your own business.

[AlKilyu]

Originally Posted by MrMaelstrom

If you're not pregnant, mind your own business.

If you're pregnant, mind your own business.

That's actually pretty genius. If you thought that up yourself, then my hats off to you.

If you didn't, it's still a good quote.

I'm not jumping into the Pro Life/Choice debate, but I have heard on two occasions (tv, sorry, nothing to quote) that they've found a way to get stem cells from adults.

Is there any truth to that?

[MrMaelstrom]

Originally Posted by AlKilyu

Indirectly you did, just like a...coward? ..

No, I used your phrase, which was an indirect question, responding to said question, turning it into a direct insult. Therefore, not cowardly.

Originally Posted by AlKilyu

I say "douchbag" and you take that to heart?..

An insult is an insult. It resides in the attitude, not in the words.

Originally Posted by AlKilyu

Again, the world over? With guns to people's heads??

The ban is not global, as isn't the issue at hand. The issues discussed in this thread are (by me) at least seen in the light of an U.S. PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

Originally Posted by AlKilyu

Are there any facts behind that lame old joke? I'd be curious to see them.??

You're right. I don't have facts to prove it. But it seems besides the point, seen as Reagans stands on gay related issues and abortion echoed her own,as I watched her public speeches in her role of first lady of the White House.

Originally Posted by AlKilyu

It's a helluva lot easier to sit on your ass and blame the U.S. for the world's problems. I'm not saying that about your countrymen, just whiny assholes like you. Direct enough of an insult?

When did I attack the U.S. or blame them for the worlds problems? I mean it, I reaaly want to see where did I do that.
I'll write it again so you don't have to scroll up: The issues discussed in this thread are (by me) at least seen in the light of an U.S. PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION (which I feel free to discuss). Idiot.

Originally Posted by AlKilyu

pretentious adj 1: making claim to or creating an appearance of (often undeserved) importance or distinction.

Any importance or distinction I might have is nothing you can yet know, for you haven't been long enough or read my posts often enough to discern.
Any claim that you do, therefore, is in itself nothing but pretensiousism on its own.

[MrMaelstrom]

Originally Posted by AlKilyu

If you thought that up yourself, then my hats off to you.

I did. Thank you.

Originally Posted by AlKilyu

they've found a way to get stem cells from adults.
Is there any truth to that?

Yes. But falls into the issue of cloning rather than abortion.

[Jane13]

Originally Posted by wolfmoon

I've always stated that the only circumstances I believe abortion should be done is ****,incest, or medical complications.

I agree with that. I know a girl who's fifteen and had five abortions, but that doesn't mean her being a slut should stop **** victims from getting abortions.

[Disfunction]

Originally Posted by WolfMoon

Why should it be a woman's choice if it's not the man's?I've always stated that the only circumstances I believe abortion should be done is ****,incest, or medical complications.

It should be the woman's choice to be able to abort if it was the man's choice to **** her... Since that would be the only situation in which she would be denied the choice.

Two matters that would be difficult to verify:
1) What if the girl lies and says she was ***** when she really wasn't?
2) What if the girl lies and says she was ***** and ends up lying about who got her pregnant?

Not saying it would happen, but it could.

The whole debate over abortion is when does the baby become considered a human being...

a) from a philosophical perspective, there are far too many arguments either for or against the idea of it being a human at conception

b) biologically, the idea is at conception.

c) theologically the idea is at conception, generally... Then again, it was the Catholic church that believed that it was wrong to "spill your seed." Later found to be a little ignorant do to several matters... Sort of like saying women shouldn't be allowed to menstruate...

I think that people should be required to take precautions, at the very least, and that if pregnancy should occur, despite using protection, I'd be more leniant towards the idea of abortion. I do think, however, that if someone isn't willing/capable of face the consequences of an action, that they should refrain from performing the action.

[AlKilyu]

Well I know who I'm voting for in the next two elections.

Bush this go around, then it's

[OmmadDawn]

Originally Posted by WolfMoon

And I don't remember ever hearing about Kerry being a soldier,but Bush was.Definately not a grunt though.....he had money.

Kerry was awarded the Silver Star for bravery in combat.
Gerry Trudeau has a $100,000 reward for anyone who can prove Bush didn't desert from National Guard. It has yet to be collected.

So I think it just demonstrates to the world what rotten country full of ignorant bubbas the U.S. is, that there is ANY questioning of Kerry's war service by the Republican side.

If there weren't so many people I loved living here, I'd be happy to see the assholes here get what they deserve from re-electing that shithead Bush.


__________________________________________
"Don't blame me. I voted for Kodos" Homer Simpson

[Sandmanhero]

Originally Posted by Disfunction

I think that people should be required to take precautions, at the very least, and that if pregnancy should occur, despite using protection, I'd be more leniant towards the idea of abortion.

Let me state this much on my veiws. I have been on birthcontrol ever since i became sexually active. I was in the middle of switching birthcontrol pills when i became pregnant. I had to wait a month before i could start the new ones and it was in that month that i got pregnant. I was 20 years old. My boyfriend at the time was a pothead, and so was i. I had been drinking heavily, was poor (still am) and was extremly unhappy with my relationship to the father. so i opted for an abortion.

I took the precaustins and i still got fucked. there isn't a day that goes by that i don't think "what if" and feel guilt about the choice i made. But the other choice would have had the same amount of guilt. I would be the mother of a baby that i in no way am prepared to support. I would not have been able to give that child the best life. rather it would have been a life long struggle with poverty for the two of us. Mommy and daddy would have hated each other. It more then likely would have had some mental dissabilities because of my drikning and smoking. I stand by my choice. And anyone who stands here and tells me that i am a slut, or a sinner or just plain wrong can kiss my ass. Don't presume to judge me unless you have been in my shoes. When you have lived the life i have lived, then you can talk to me about choice and right and wrong.

And I'll be damned if anyone, politician, rightwing, conservative, hippie, whoever tells me what i can and can't do with myself. I am living with the choice. I am certainly not dancing in the streets with happiness about it, but i stand by it. It was the best desicion for me. So unless you're in my head, don't presume to know what i felt. or what any other women who made the same choice felt or still feels.

That is all i will say about that.

[.BatteryPoison.]

Originally Posted by MrMaelstrom

one must remember that an official political stand has already been made and repeated over and over again by the leader of your nation.
For your government to change the course of its policies 180º will look like hypochrisy and deceit. It will make the government to look like a turncoat. So they won't do it, no matter how motivated or inclined to do it they may be (which I very seriously doubt).

*Cough* California *Cough*

Bush isn't too overly-concerned it seems with the idea of changing his plans midway through his terms. I remember clearly that his message in 2000 was, "We're not here to nation-build, and will not do so." Of course no one saw September 11th coming, which is why we suddenly entered into a campaign to "clean up" the middle east and nation-build.

Point is, nothing is set in stone, and if you look throughout the history of civil rights in America, it's been Republicans who have really pushed for major changes (i.e. abolishing slavery, desegregation, etc.). The big plan (if it happens) won't be constitutional, but rather, left up to the states to decide.

BTW, I forgot to throw Rudy Giuliani in with the list of influencial Republicans who support gay marriage.

I wonder what Haliburton Cheney's public views on gay issues were prior to his discovery of his offsring's choice of sex partners gender.

Back durring his Haliburton days, he was actually open to gay marriage. Once having entered politics, he suddenly took a stance against it for a short while, then changed his tune back to supporting it.

Originally Posted by AlKilyu

Well I know who I'm voting for in the next two elections.

Bush this go around, then it's

<insert picture here>

LMAO!!

;)

[MrMaelstrom]

BT: as you mentioned, 9/11 wasn't antecipated. When it happened, the whole nation's mindset altered, making the "turn" in foreign policy consistent with events. Please note that by saying consistent, it doesn't mean I agree with it.
I'm still not sure that after the San Francisco affair and the political stances that were taken, a significant change in policy advocated by Bush (included in his last State of the Nation speech) would make sense to his constituency. I notice that some of you are pro-Bush and support gay rights. Please make your voices heard louder.

Disfunction: like I said before, regulating what other people do with and to their bodies is none of your business. Does that clear the issue?

Sandmanhero: girl, you don't have to justify your decision. It would be a heartwrenching decision either way. It would just be a lot worse if the choice was left to a shitload of people who know nothing about you and know nothing about your life.

Whether chaste or a slut, it's noone else's business but the pregnant woman and the guy who impregnated her (if she so choses). The risks a woman takes by using abortion as a birth control technique instead of a last resort are also her own as is her body.

Am I incredibly thick? Is there something I'm missing?
It ain't rocket science, and still, I find myself having to reiteirate these points every few months.

Wolfmoon, sorry if I'm stepping on your cute little toes, but at least Kerry went to Vietnam. That he later would do something of the sort that you described seems to me ridiculous (not untrue, notice), because even if he later rejected U.S. reassons for being there, he'd have no call to make those kinds of questions, for everything that was asked by him could have been asked TO him, seen as he was there as well.

[WolfMoon]

Yeah,I'd probably be inclined to kill someone if they were getting in the way too.But then again, I'm a selfish person.What if the father had wanted the baby?

[MrMaelstrom]

Originally Posted by WolfMoon

What if the father had wanted the baby?

Very simple.
If I'm with a girl and want her to have my child, I'll ask her how she feels about it.

If she tells me "not now", because she still doesn't feel the relationship to be solid enough for it, or that better economic times for us to take such a step are needed, I'll wait.

If she tells me she isn't interested in having a child at all, ever (or at least not with me), I should come to the conclusion that either I accept that the relationship with this woman will be without children and stay with her;
or if I'm set in my mind that the relationship I want for the long run HAS to have children, then I should leave the relationship and find someone who feels the way I do.

If the woman happens to get pregnant, its her choice.

The woman doesn't want my baby right now, the man waits or makes his case to the woman. But in the end, it's her choice and her body.

The woman doesn't want my baby ever. If the man really wants a baby that much, Leave.

Do I really want a baby from someone who doesn't want to have one with me? Fuck no.

In ANY relationship, unplanned pregnancy should be talked about between BOTH people. If they can't agree right there and then, LEAVE.

Simple enough?

[WolfMoon]

It's not that easy, Mael.Because it's also a creation of the father's.I've realized lately that father's don't have near as many rights as mothers do regarding children.The whole 'it's my body issue,please.Could that be more lame?

[MrMaelstrom]

Sorry Wolf, but it IS that easy.

It's something people need to discuss in a relationship. If they don't agree, they really should leave.

A man HAS to make sure the woman is interested al all in his CREATION, and in what terms.

Consented fucking never happens without some form of communication first. So if you're smart enough to talk, you're smart enough to talk about it.

I had sex with a girl I met once. After foreplay (undressing) was done, I was about to put a condom when she said: - I don't need it.
I thought to myself "yeah? Well, I might. I don't know where you been, and you sure as hell don't know where I've been, or you probably wouldn't be here".

But being politically correct, I said I didn't want a baby, to which she replied, if it happens, you wouldn't have to raise him.

Sure, I'm gonna have the fruit of my loins with a chick I know little more about than the desire to sleep with her and whom I've only just met.

NOT. Needless to say I wore the friguin' condom. It was either that or I'd leave. An' I would've fucking left.

Talk about it first. It ain't rocket science people.

[AlKilyu]

Originally Posted by WolfMoon

Because it's also a creation of the father's.I've realized lately that father's don't have near as many rights as mothers do regarding children.

Another good point.

[MrMaelstrom]

I explained it easy to understand notions my opinion on what should be done PRIOR to the pregnancy.

But if now you want to bring parents rights into this, let's do it.

There's more to parenting than mere conception.

You better than anyone should know, Wolf, that no matter how loving and involved the father of your offspring is, the little devil you spawned and the other I belive your gonna spawn depend mostly on you. The reasons are simple, physicasll and obvious: he´s not gonna breastfeed and it's her smell the baby recognizes.
And if your Dr. Jeckyl turn into Mr. Hyde (as happens often enough), more the reason for the law to be extra carefull regarding mothers.

Although not unheard of, it's usually the male that deserts both partner and offspring. the law is a reflection of that, albeit on a philosophycal stand both should have the same rights.

Later on in life, sure, but we're not talking about children and teenagers here. We're talking pregnancy, and I belive my posts on communication PRIOR to conception pretty much covered that.


Capice?

[WolfMoon]

Originally Posted by MrMaelstrom

There's more to parenting than mere conception.

You better than anyone should know, Wolf, that no matter how loving and involved the father of your offspring is, the little devil you spawned and the other I belive your gonna spawn de pend mostly on you.

And if your Dr. Jeckyl turn into Mr. Hyde (as happens often enough), more the reason for the law to be extra carefull regarding mothers.

Although not unheard of, it's usually the male that deserts both partner and offspring. the law is a reflection of that, albeit on a philosophycal stand both should have the same rights.

Capice?

Actually it seems lately that it's the male that kills both lately.Sorry,sorry.....I'm talking about the two recent headliners.It's probably more of a conundrum for people who haven't met "the one".

[Loy]

Sorry...laughing my ass off as to how this thing tangented off into another retarded....hold on, let me rephrase that....FUCKING RETARDED argument on the non-issue of abortion. "Non-issue" some of you might be asking? Yes. Why do I say that? Simple-abortion has NOTHING to do with the way this country runs day to day, and is just something tossed out to get people all riled up, and divert them from getting shit done.

See, what's going on here is a simple misunderstanding of the concept of what is good for "life". Some people believe that we should be able to kill off the big coagulation of cells called a foetus (and remember folks, a foetus is not a human being...not until an animal is born can it truly be called a sentiant life form. It is still a part of it's host that has the potential for sentiance. Sounds cruel, I know, but hey, do we call a wombat a fucking wombat while it's in the womb? No, we wait until it's born. And please don't give me this "humans are above other species" BS because lately, we haven't done a very good job of showing it) when the carrier (i.e. mother) decides that it's best for her and/or the offspring. We also have some people that feel that this is murder, and want to wait until it's born before society starts fucking with the sentaince of the being in question with such things as taxes and the compulsory work...

And it's one of those things I prefer to stay out of. Not because I don't have an opinion on it (which follows-abortion is one of those issues that drives everybody into heated arguments, including friends of mine who are all extremely intelligent and compassionate. Some of my friends think these pro-life people are annoying idiots. The rest of my friends think that these pro-life people are evil fucks....thank you Bill Hicks.), but because it's simply a wedge issue that we'll get all riled up about, and after we spend all our energy on it, we have none left to take care of such minor issues as poverty...our failing school system...our fucked up health-care system...our deteriorating infrastructure...our out-of-control burocracy...the displacement of wealth in proportion to earning....(I could go on, BTW, but I'm really drunk, and don't have much time).

So as far as the abortion thing is concerned, two pieces of advice for everybody. 1-what business is it of yours? (and if you're having a hard time answering that simple question, I'll give you the answer-NONE of your fucking business), and 2-let's move on to REAL issues...can we, please?

and .battery.-If you wanna copy and e-mail me the last post, I can give a more detailed response, but here's the simplified one....are you familiar with the history of US foreign policy post-War of 1812, and how we have manipulated "leaders" of other countries to basically become our bitch-boys? If you are, then you cannot say that our imperialism in Iraq is a "new" form of imperialism. And it also reeks of the same hegonomical attitudes that the Spanish-American war did (which, BTW, has quite a few similarities to this one). I'd also, agin, like to reitterate that getting rid of Saddam just to replace him with a puppet leader is not really an improvement...ask the Chileans (ironically enough, September 11 is also the anniversary of a CIA/US-backed coup that overthrew the elected president of Chile and put Pinochet in power down there...something to think about). And before you say "the CIA doesn't neccesarilly represent the United States", I'd like to point out that the CIA does in fact hold diplomatic/representative repute as far as their dealings with foreign powers. When people deal with the CIA, they are (in effect) dealing directly with the US government. So when the CIA fucks over people, it is in fact the United States fucking people over. But your original post is, like 58 pages back, and I'm too drunk to figure out how to browse back properly without losing anything I've typed. My appologies.

[Soul_Immortal]

Presidente? :idea:


I would like Kerry to win, only because he had different not-so gung ho views on the situation in Iraq. Lemme do some looking and see what each wants to offer, as leaders, and which would better suit my taste as President. I don't want my vote to be one sided unless I have a really good reason.



Bio-dads leaving the nest, eh? And vice versa. I could say alot on this topic until I were blue in the face, actually. So blue, Smurf's would be jealous.


I kinda see where both you Maelstrom, and you Wolfmoon are coming from. My mom took me and left my dad when I was a wee little 4 months old. Yeah, theres alot I may not know like the stability of their relationship, whether they could stand to be in the same room or not.....I tell you one thing, my mom being 17 and him 19 didn't help too much either. Thank goodness they both had families that cared. Ok I went way off, heres an end note.....

ROCK THE VOTE 2004!!!



*Soul*

[MrMaelstrom]

You're quite right Tstone, but I still have a bit of nitpicking to do (what do you want? I've been away).

Here's a quote from Bush's speech yesterday at the convention. I watched it live and got the transcript from their own page. The stuff between parenthesis is my own.

"Because family and work are sources of stability and dignity, I support welfare reform that strengthens family and requires work. Because a caring society will value its weakest members, we must make a place for the unborn child."

(anyone who can read between the lines sees what he means when it comes to abortion)

"Because religious charities provide a safety net of mercy and compassion, our government must never discriminate against them."

(Sure, I mean, religious organizations are never subjective in who they help or how they help)

"Because the union of a man and woman deserves an honored place in our society, I support the protection of marriage against activist judges. And I will continue to appoint federal judges who know the difference between personal opinion and the strict interpretation of the law. "

(I believe you know what this one is talking about. I mean, God knows that a union between two men and two women doesn't deserve an honored place in any society. I mean, it's not like they work, pay taxes and fight wars, do they?

Battery, do you still think gay rights will be furthered on any level by this administration? I think not.

Funny enough, it's because the law can't possibly cover everything that we still have courts and judges instead of something like a legal software handing out instant decisions and convictions. It's because the law can't be "strictly" interpreted that we have courts. Because the legal system exists to protect something a lot more sacred than law = JUSTICE).

Shit, I was really a naive kid. I never set foot in the american continent.
But I believed for a long time that the U.S. were the spearhead for the rest of the world. We absorbed and incorporated the ideals they herited from the french revolution and made true by the U.S. constitution = something I still, to this day, consider to be the most important piece of legal work in history of humanity.

I see why a lot of you misinterpret my criticisms. The same reason someone like M. Moore is misinterpreted.
I'm not objective when it comes to this. I never will be.

Because you gave the rest of us a dream. I can't give it up.

I still have a dream.

[Panther]

Looks like everybody else has stated my opinions.

I was against the war in Iraq. Even on septembet 12th.

I'm against what we're doing in Iraq now. Someone mentioned Chile. We also helped Castro get into power.

I'm pro-abortion. If the mother can't handle a child yet, or can't support it, or thinks she's unfit, then it's better for the child to not be born.

Stem Cell research is good. As long as it's used wisely.

Gay marriage is not that big a deal. Let them enjoy their lives, they pay taxes too.

National security is being used as an excuse to cow people into submission by telling them there's Middle Eastern monsters under the bed. We need tp be secure, but not at the cost of freedom. Because there's no point being safe if you're not going to be allowed to live. The security rating system is stupid.

Income tax should be in porportion to income. Medicine should be available to everyone. The government should try to help small business, and leave religion to the churches.

No real radical ideas here. Just a bit of commons sense. Which, honestly, George Bush doesn't seem to have much of.

[MrMaelstrom]

Originally Posted by Panther

No real radical ideas here. Just a bit of commons sense. Which, honestly, George Bush doesn't seem to have much of.

Common sense is never common. Kind of like military inteligence or fighting for peace.