President

[WolfMoon]

Just for the record,I wasn't calling Disfunction anti-semetic.I did see his ironic heiling to Bush as trivializing the Holocaust,though.And making Bush seem like a mass murderer.

We were looking for Osama for awhile.But until we find some information on his where abouts there's no point in deploying troops in a useless effort.

Genocide?There are always casualties with war.They're not all Bush's fault.It's not Bush's fault a suicide bomber walks into a heavily populated public area and detonates themselves along with 30 other people.We have,sadly,killed civillians.So have the terrorists.They kill our people and theirs.We can never repay the country for those lives,but we are allowing them to be free for the first time in a long time.Far too long.

We are allowing their women the right to vote and,hopefully giving tem power.Do you know that in some middle eastern and african countries they castrate women?They mutilate their genitalia to an unrecognizable mass and sew them up with a very,very small hole through which to menstrate.On the girl's wedding night her husband tears through her without regard for her pain because women are not allowed sexual pleasure.

Hopefully,with a new government and the power to vote and go to school with the boys, these things will change.


And now for something completely different.........




Dradle,dradle,dradle....
I made you out of clay..........

Damn,I forgot the rest.But jewish children made dradles from clay and played with them by spinning them like a top.There's something about the signifigance of which side it lands on and the foil covered chocolate coins,but I can't remember right now.

[Gypsy2222]

The Dreidel (I'm pretty sure thats the proper way to spell it), is a game usually played around Hanukah... The four letters on the side are Nun, Gimel, Heh and Shih if I remember correctly... It's supposed to teach a moral lesson (by reminding Jewish children of something) as well as be a fun game... If I remember correctly the letters combined mean something like "Miracles happened here" or "A Miracle happened there"... Something of that nature... Have had a few frinds that were Jewish and was curious... There was an interesting story that went with it if I remember correctly... I just can't recall it at the moment....


~Chuckle~...

So many cultures... so little space in my skull...

Always,
~The Gypsy~

[ohthefuckwell]

Originally Posted by WolfMoon

Dradle,dradle,dradle....
I made you out of clay..........

...and when you're dry & ready
then, dradle, i shall play....

[WolfMoon]

Originally Posted by ohthefuckwell

...and when you're dry & ready
then, dradle, i shall play....

Did you watch that episode of Southpark too?

:wink:

[ohthefuckwell]

Originally Posted by WolfMoon

Did you watch that episode of Southpark too?

:wink:

LOL uhhhhhh no.

actually, my step-brother is Jewish. as is my sister's best friend. :wink:

[WolfMoon]

Ah,I heard the song on Southpark,of all things.

:shock:

But someone once explained the symbols,the manora and the chocolate coins to me.

[Disfunction]

Originally Posted by WolfMoon

Just for the record,I wasn't calling Disfunction anti-semetic.I did see his ironic heiling to Bush as trivializing the Holocaust,though.And making Bush seem like a mass murderer.

We were looking for Osama for awhile.But until we find some information on his where abouts there's no point in deploying troops in a useless effort.

Genocide?There are always casualties with war.They're not all Bush's fault.It's not Bush's fault a suicide bomber walks into a heavily populated public area and detonates themselves along with 30 other people.We have,sadly,killed civillians.So have the terrorists.They kill our people and theirs.We can never repay the country for those lives,but we are allowing them to be free for the first time in a long time.Far too long.

Irony is where the reader sees it for themselves, I suppose, but to many such a comparison is neither ironic, nor unfair. Nor did I attribute all civillian casualties to Bush... I did however attribute all those for which the American military is responsible (North America is a continent, South America is a continent, the Americas are two continents, and America is another title for the US-to whom it was that called America a continent).

there's no point in deploying troops in a useless effort.

That's something that's irony I find relatively self-explanatory.


And finally: I like chocolate.

What does that have to do with Bush? He's the anti-chocolate. Much like the anti-christ, but less chewy.

[WolfMoon]

Hardly ironic,we succeeded in deposing a dictator that did bio-chemical experiments on his own people.Tortured his own people and just did any thing he felt like.

We are helping Iraqi people to rebuild their society.We are giving them freedom that they want.Safety that they need.You can't expect us to perform miracles over night.We are doing what we can,instead of pulling out and telling the people to go screw themselves.We aren't pushing anything on these people that they don't themselves want.


Take this freedom or I'll shove it down your throat

Eh,I don't think so.

Our efforts are anything but useless.

[AlKilyu]

Wolfy Wolfy why?! Such statements are so baseless, immature and below anyone worth half their weight that it's painful to see someone as smart as you try to reason with them!

Consider the source I say... ^_^

[WolfMoon]

Originally Posted by AlKilyu

Wolfy Wolfy why?! Such statements are so baseless, immature and below anyone worth half their weight that it's painful to see someone as smart as you try to reason with them!

Consider the source I say... ^_^

You may be right,Al.

I just can't help but think that when this one lives as an adult in the world he'll see thing from a different perspective.I was idealistic and headstrong as a teenager as well.

[OmmadDawn]

Originally Posted by .BatteryPoison.

146 detainees have been released without charge, 56 have been handed back over to the custody of their governments.

I believe the vast majority of those released were only after the most intense international pressure. all I remember was Britain and a couple of other countries having to fight tooth and claw to get some of their citizens released. No such hope for some of the others.

It would behoove me to prove that, but I don't have time or energy right now...No, really, I'm still tired from the extended illness. Wull, 3 weeks is extended for me...I HOPE I'm not just lazy.

Also, great info on some of the MPs being charged for the abuses at the Iraqi prison.

You guys should try to understand one of the things that pisses me off about the Bush Administration. All this throwing people into camps without trials and trying to rob us of our rights and freedoms...because they claim they want to "keep us safe".

My perspective is from the Cold War. Lived the nuclear nightmare, ready and waiting to die at any moment, since I was a child. Why? So that the Soviet Union wouldn't be able to put us under its totalitarian system.

So EVEN if I were to believe this crap about the Bush Administration giving a shit for our safety, rather than being happy to have a tool to make everyone knuckle under to their every whim, that still begs the question...

WHEN DID WE TURN INTO SUCH GUT-WRENCHING PANTS-PISSING COWARDS THAT WE'RE AFRAID OF A TERRORIST ATTACK HERE OR THERE?

It's tragic and men, women and children die and somebody I love may die or I may die. BUT I'D RATHER DIE THAN GIVE AWAY MY FREEDOM.

And that, my friends, is why the Cold Warriors are pissed off about where the country is headed.

One of these days, I'll have to tell you folks the true story of how I ALMOST died in a global nuclear conflagration.

[AlKilyu]

Wolfy that is very honorable, and I understand where you are coming from. It's great that you try to help people understand certain basic flaws in their rants.

But it's like having the faucet running in the tub with the drain open, all that goes to waste. Also it's like spraying perfume on dogshit. ^_^

[WolfMoon]

Al......

Al,I just........

I.....

BWAAAHAHAHAHA!

And I thought you going to say...."on a skunk"



:P

[.BatteryPoison.]

Originally Posted by Disfunction

[n] systematic killing of a racial or cultural group

(I am aware that you know of its definition, justing putting it out there for reference.)

What has been happening is an eradication of various cultures through the implimentation of democracy at a time of extreme political instability; as soon as the military is pulled out, it will collapse into ultimate chaos... You can't try to turn an area of that sort into USA jr... Good intentions aren't enough to do something of this sort. They would accept democracy on their own terms... military implimentation heeds great difficulties varying on the culture.

Ok, are you talking about the culture itself or the people of a culture?

In terms of the latter, I'm not so sure I would describe it as genocide, necessarily, just because Bush isn't set out to kill the Taliban or Al Quaeda, or any other major islamic militant group. Our goal is really to catch these guys and deal with them, but if they don't want to come peacefully, which none of them do, then we'll happily introduce them to the blunt side of a SCUD missile.

Originally Posted by OmmadDawn

I believe the vast majority of those released were only after the most intense international pressure. all I remember was Britain and a couple of other countries having to fight tooth and claw to get some of their citizens released. No such hope for some of the others.

Actually it's quite interesting what the real motivation behind us giving detainees back to Jordan and Egypt is. It's partially in a deal where we hand back detainees for these governments to deal with (which they want to) in exchange for us secretly smuggling in "ghost prisoners" to their countries for interrogation purposes. Why? Because these countries don't mind using physical abuse (i.e. torture) to extract information from the detainees, whereas American run prisons would never allow or approve of such methods. Many interrogators at Guantanamo Bay often threaten uncooperative detainees with being sent to Jordan for interrogations.

Another shitty deal is that we ended up releasing some of the detainees prematurely. Abdullah Mehsud (A.K.A. Mohammed Alam Mehsud) was found not to be a threat to the U.S. any longer (though I'm sure pressure from our own government to start dealing with these prisoners led to the quick release of hundreds for good PR), was released, went back to Afghanistan, rejoined his group and has currently taken several Pakistani and Chinese nationals in that country hostage.

I won't argue any of what you mentioned earlier about about our treatment of terror suspects held at Guantanamo Bay. It is sort of a shit deal and we're not even covering up our unjust tactics in waging war, but rather legitimizing them. Of course with things like the Patriot Act though, it's really been the Justice Department that has had the main hand in using it for doing and investigating whatever they feel like.

[Disfunction]

Originally Posted by .BatteryPoison.

Ok, are you talking about the culture itself or the people of a culture?

I'm referencing both in a sort of way. The culture is being killed by western intervention, but people who don't agree with it (and I'm referring to those who aren't set in "keeping women down" since not all of the implimented changes are positive ones) are also suffering because of it. I hate it when people start viewing the world in terms of black in white, because with the billions of people we have, it's not going to be as easy as Bush thinks to put people into two respective categories (with the US and against it). The in itself creates a severe form of discrimination against people in the world who would like to support the US but don't believe in its reasons for going to war. In a sense, Bush wants to wipe out everybody that disagrees with American foreign policy... Either by converting them to the cause, or destroying them.

[Disfunction]

Originally Posted by WolfMoon

We are helping Iraqi people to rebuild their society.We are giving them freedom that they want.Safety that they need.You can't expect us to perform miracles over night.We are doing what we can,instead of pulling out and telling the people to go screw themselves.We aren't pushing anything on these people that they don't themselves want.


Take this freedom or I'll shove it down your throat

Eh,I don't think so.

Our efforts are anything but useless.

That point I'm making is that you are wrong in many cases. If you can go to Iraq, and talk to people and tell me that they all want the American version of freedom, then by all means, I'll pull out of the argument entirely.

My point is that no one came into your country and told you "Okay, we're going to force you to rebel against the people in charge of you." Rather, the time came when the people united in their desire for freedom, and they themselves overthrew the system that had been placed on them.

Originally Posted by Wolfmoon

Hardly ironic,we succeeded in deposing a dictator that did bio-chemical experiments on his own people.Tortured his own people and just did any thing he felt like.

Then why not do the same with North Korea, an equal, if not greater, threat to the US. They don't treat their people well. They do terrible things too. It's not in the media though. As much as you'd like to think so, there are ALWAYS ulterior motives for invading another country. The USSR helped with World War II so people were tolerant of them, and then eventually they went an a global annexing-spree.

While I'm not accusing the US of imperialism, I'm also not going to just swallow the idea of "We're trying to help them." If that was the case, it wouldn't be Iraq alone that would be invaded. That's my point.

Originally Posted by AlKilyu

Wolfy that is very honorable, and I understand where you are coming from. It's great that you try to help people understand certain basic flaws in their rants.

Watch yourself Al; you are labelling my arguments as flawed, however, that is merely because you disagree with the points I make. That hardly makes them flawed. I made a comparison, and admitted that my use of the word "genocide" was out of a different sort of context, and now I've supported my argument once again by tearing off the plastic halo that so many seem to see as genuine; think of the US as an older sibling that likes to act as parent for it's siblings... However, age doesn't define wisdom.

[.BatteryPoison.]

Originally Posted by Disfunction

I'm referencing both in a sort of way. The culture is being killed by western intervention, but people who don't agree with it (and I'm referring to those who aren't set in "keeping women down" since not all of the implimented changes are positive ones) are also suffering because of it.

The killing of a culture, itself, is something different from straight up genocide. Genocide refers more to the erradication of a cultural group through killing all of it's members, rather than just killing the idea. Agreed though that cultures are suffering due to the intervention.

I hate it when people start viewing the world in terms of black in white, because with the billions of people we have, it's not going to be as easy as Bush thinks to put people into two respective categories (with the US and against it). The in itself creates a severe form of discrimination against people in the world who would like to support the US but don't believe in its reasons for going to war.

Agreed.

In a sense, Bush wants to wipe out everybody that disagrees with American foreign policy... Either by converting them to the cause, or destroying them.

Not everyone, just the nations we see as a major risk like Iran and North Korea. I think it's safe to say Bush could care less about the little fish in the pond that don't matter in the big picture.

[WolfMoon]

Dis,Mael explained the reason we're not attacking N.Korea right now.Besides the fact we don't have the man power to do that and deal with the extremists/guerillas/what-have-you.

If the people over there love their government sooooo much then way do so many of them spend years relocating theirs families to this country?Just because people are too scared to revolt doesn't mean they like their dictator.Of course their women love getting stoned in the street for crimes that are,for the most part,imagined injuries to a man's ego.What the hell was I thinking?People love being miserable!



meh...........

[Loy]

Disfunction-just a quick bit of history....I can't remember which one of the founding fathers said this, but they said, in effect, that only about 30% of the citizens here were ever actually FOR separating from England. Most historians would actually argue that it was closer to about 20%. Most Historians would also argue that about 35% of the citizens here were for STAYING within the dominion of the crown, and everybody didn't give a shit less. As far as our actual separation, we didn't do it alone. In fact, if it weren't for France (what with all the material and financial support), and Prussia (well, this one's more accidental than anything else....Baron Von Steuben's homosexuality made him fairly unpopular in his native land, and was "travelling abroad" when he was recruited by Washington to come over to America and kick our weak, pathetic little army into shape.), we'd probably still be part of the Crown.

However, I do agree with your point about us trying to shove our ideology down somebody elses throat. It reeks of imperialism (I said it. I stand by it.). It's the same thing McKinley pulled with Cuba and the Phillipines after the Spanish American war....Roosevelt in Central America....and it's becoming a case of us not learning from our history (and being doomed to repeat it). All our reasons for going in have fallen by the wayside once the facts came in, and now we're fighting to "free" these people-yet we can't allow them the "freedom" we were supposedly fighting for....I'd ask people to find a copy of McKinley's speach to a group of clergy he was having dinner with in regards to why he couldn't allow the Phillipines to run themselves, and please compare it to the many, many reasons people have tossed out for "policing" Iraq....it's extremely similar (sans references to "christianizing our little brown brothers". I don't think modern conservatives would hang themselves politically by uttering those words publicly)

And, just for shits and giggles, I went around here and spoke to every Iraqi I could find (either former citizens or current ones going to school here). And I asked them "Was getting rid of Saddam Hussein a good thing?". Out of the 28 I asked, 28 answered "yes" (100%, for you staticians out there). So I then asked them, "are you happy with the way things have turned out since Saddam's fall?". Again, out of the 28 I asked, 28 said "no" (again, 100%). So then I aksed them "do you think George Bush did the right thing by invading?". Now here's where the variances kick in-out of the 28, 27 said "no" (the 1 neither agreed nor disagreed...they refused to answer. So our percantages are 96.417% for no, 3.583% undecided). When pressed as to why they refused to answer, they said "I do not want to happen what Saddam did before" (this person was a former prisoner in Iraq...something I always forget whenever I talk to him at his restaraunt). The reason everybody else said Bush didn't do the right thing (even though they ALL said that they were happy Saddam was gone) was (in essence) "Bush was using our suffering for his own purposes".....(as an aside-see, Muslims and Christians aren't THAT different. We both have a problem with "the ends justify the means".)

Now, why did I ask Iraqis? Simple-it's their fucking country. Their fucking motherland. Now, as I said, some of them are here to learn (the UW has a wonderful foreign-student trade-off program), some are here because they love the mythology about America we do, and some...well, they just needed to get the fuck out of there. But they were here FROM Iraq. They have a deeper connection to that area than we do. And hell, these people also fucking LOVE America...now if THEY have a problem with what's been happening over there, how do the Iraqis living there feel?

And why haven't we asked them?

[TeapotScar]

Originally Posted by WolfMoon

Dis,Mael explained the reason we're not attacking N.Korea right now.Besides the fact we don't have the man power to do that and deal with the extremists/guerillas/what-have-you.

If the people over there love their government sooooo much then way do so many of them spend years relocating theirs families to this country?Just because people are too scared to revolt doesn't mean they like their dictator.Of course their women love getting stoned in the street for crimes that are,for the most part,imagined injuries to a man's ego.What the hell was I thinking?People love being miserable!



meh...........

The point is, it's not America's choice who over-throws their governments and when. God, yes, Saddam was horrible, and he needed to be ousted, but the manner in which the United States told the people of Iraq when, where, and how to fight this battle was disgustingly out of line. We did not have the authority, or the power to do this.

*We needed the support of the world to successfully alleviate the miseries of the Iraqi people.*

They are still miserable: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english...ent_335551.htm

"This is the freedom they promised us," said one resident, Jaber Kazem, 52, a merchant, pointing to the city square where charred lampposts, shell-damaged hotels and shattered glass bear witness to the recent fighting.

Miserable, and angry: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0326-01.htm

Any chance that tribespeople in this rural area south of Baghdad would look kindly on the impending arrival of American troops may have vanished in a cloud of collapsing rubble and twisted steel.

The fact that we successfully defeated Saddam's regime does not mean we won the war. We, alone, do not have the capacity to successfully save the Iraqi people from the violence in their cities, streets, and backyards. That is a big part of why I don't think that this was the right way to pursue the war on terror... not to mention the weakness of the intelligence recieved on the topic, the alterior intentions of the administration, etc. etc.

[WolfMoon]

Sorry,my heart isn't menstrating.


I stand by what I believe.


My instincts are rarely wrong and have saved me many an ass-handing.

[TeapotScar]

Originally Posted by WolfMoon

Sorry,my heart isn't menstrating.


I stand by what I believe.


My instincts are rarely wrong and have saved me many an ass-handing.

I'm glad your instincts are enough proof, to you, of the Iraqi peoples' safety.

But, uh, hey!...maybe facts would work a little better?

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ As many as 15,292 and at least 13,224. And my numbers may be behind, so I suggest you check the link. Just, you know, to *check your instincts*.

edit: Sorry... this was possibly too offensive, but that statement upsets me deeply.

[Disfunction]

My instincts are also rarely wrong, and history is rarely wrong. If I have to, I will type out an essay as to why democracy is not desirable for all nations, pertaining to historical occurences.

While the American Revolution did not occur independently of foreign influence, the "Iraqi Revolution" occured independent of its people.

[Disfunction]

Originally Posted by WolfMoon

Dis,Mael explained the reason we're not attacking N.Korea right now.Besides the fact we don't have the man power to do that and deal with the extremists/guerillas/what-have-you.

If the people over there love their government sooooo much then way do so many of them spend years relocating theirs families to this country?Just because people are too scared to revolt doesn't mean they like their dictator.Of course their women love getting stoned in the street for crimes that are,for the most part,imagined injuries to a man's ego.What the hell was I thinking?People love being miserable!



meh...........

Ever heard the expression "the devil that you know and the devil you don't"? It's really profound. Just because you take away something bad and replace it with something else doesn't mean it will get better.

"Ow! I have a headache!"
"Here: have some genital herpes!"

No no no no no. I will not accept your twisting the words to suit your argument.

Removing Sadam= Good

Having no real justification=Bad

And do not give me that idealistic bullshit about caring about the well-being of their people. What the hell has the US government ever cared about people?

If such would be the case, they would make it illegal to employ children for labour in third world countries if they were being provided practically nothing for their work.

If such would be the case, cigarettes would be illegal lacking any benefit to society and causing harm to those around the user.

If such were the case, they'd put more money into taking care of the failing educational system rather than pumping money into a war that doesn't even affect the American people directly.

What utter bullshit. Let your "instincts" tell you whatever you want them to, but if you are telling me that it's being done because he was a "bad man" I suggest that you consider the fact that the government was looking into its neighbours yard rather than its own.

edit: someone told me that one of my friends killed themselves, and now told me that she was lying.... so that explains the anger... sorry.

[TeapotScar]

Originally Posted by Disfunction

"Ow! I have a headache!"
"Here: have some genital herpes!"

I feel compelled to tell you that upon reading this, I fell off of my chair, called over my room mate to read it, and we both laughed hysterically for a good while.

And to your other comments: Sing it, sistah!

To the edit: Euch, sorry. People can be so stupid.