Shooting in Amish Country

[Splintered]

Truck driver kills three girls in Amish school shooting

PARADISE, Pennsylvania (CNN) -- A 32-year-old truck driver walked into a one-room Amish schoolhouse Monday, binding and shooting three girls execution-style before killing himself, police said.

Eight other girls were wounded in the attack, which police said appeared to be a revenge killing for an incident that occurred two decades ago.

"It would take a miracle for us to not lose more lives today," said Commissioner Jeffrey Miller of the Pennsylvania State Police, adding that the wounded were in critical condition -- two of them "very dire." (Watch how the gunman got in and what he did -- 7:44 Video)

The attack was the nation's third deadly school shooting in a week.

The gunman, Charles Carl Roberts IV, was armed with three guns, a stun gun, two knives and a bag holding 600 rounds of ammunition, Miller said.

He was also carrying an assortment of tools and other items, including toilet paper, that led police to believe he was prepared for an extended standoff.

"It seems as though he wanted to attack young female victims, and this is close to his residence. That's the only reason we can figure that he went to the school," said Miller. (Read Miller's dramatic account)

"It's a horrendous crime scene," he said.

The shooting took place in Lancaster County, about 60 miles west of Philadelphia, at a school run by the Amish community. There were 26 students in the school Monday, 11 of them girls. (Watch police investigate shooting scene -- 1:00)

The school teaches students ranging from 6 to 13, with some older students working as teachers' aides. Two students and an aide were dead at the scene, with one girl dying in a state trooper's arms, Miller said.

The wounded girls were taken to several hospitals in the central Pennsylvania area, some of them with gunshot wounds to the head.

Roberts drove a commercial milk truck, said Miller. He was not Amish, was not previously wanted by authorities and had no known criminal history.

The Bart, Pennsylvania, resident had three children, and left several notes for his family "along the lines of suicide notes," Miller said.

The notes were "rambling" and "didn't make much sense," Miller said.

Roberts did not respond when police at the scene attempted to communicate with him, and troopers were preparing to storm the schoolhouse before the shooting began, Miller said.

Roberts' wife tried to call him when she found the notes, Miller said. He returned the call on his cell phone, told her he wouldn't be coming home and "that he was acting out to achieve revenge for something that happened 20 years ago."

The suspect called 911 and "made a declaration that if the state police didn't leave the property he would start shooting people within 10 seconds."

"Within seconds, he just started firing in rapid succession."

Police then stormed the schoolhouse through the windows and found Roberts dead, Miller said. He had fired at least one shotgun blast at police.
Gunman let boys go

The commissioner said Roberts had worked a shift that ended about 3 a.m. Monday and taken his children to their bus stop before beginning his rampage.

Police said he had barricaded himself in the schoolhouse with two-by-four and two-by-six pieces of lumber, which he brought to the scene in a borrowed pickup truck.

"He did a great deal of planning," Miller said. "It appears that he intended to be prepared for a lengthy siege."

Miller said that during the attack, Roberts apparently told students to line up in front of the blackboard. He began to tie his female captives' feet together. He let the 15 boys in the classroom leave.

Miller said Roberts also allowed an adult female who was pregnant to leave with three other adult females who had infant children with them.

The teacher who was released was able to alert authorities, Miller said.

"Apparently, there was some sort of an issue in his past that for some reason, he wanted to exact revenge against female victims. That's all I can tell you right now," Miller said.

Miller said Roberts' grudge did not appear to involve the Amish community and that he may have chosen his target out of convenience, perhaps thinking "getting into a school like this was maybe just a little bit easier."

A man who said he was a friend of the Roberts family, Dwight Lefever, read a statement attributed to the gunman's wife, Marie Roberts, according to CNN affiliate WGAL.

"The man that did this today was not the Charlie I've been married to for almost 10 years. My husband was loving, supportive, thoughtful. All the things you'd always want and more. He was an exceptional father," the statement said.

"Our hearts are broken, our lives are shattered, and we grieve for the innocents and lives that were lost today. Above all, please pray. Pray for the families who lost children today, and please pray, too, for our family and children."

Lancaster County's 911 Web site reported dozens of emergency vehicles -- including at least nine ambulances -- were dispatched to Bart Township shortly before 11 a.m. for a "medical emergency." The Lancaster County emergency communications Web site showed 20 incident calls listed to the normally quiet Bart Township at 10:48 a.m.

Shortly after the attack, men, women and girls in traditional Amish clothing gathered in small groups outside the country schoolhouse along a dirt road. Horse-drawn carriages could be seen in a nearby parking lot.

The school is one of about 150 that serve the Amish population of about 200,000, said Donald Kraybill, a sociology professor at nearby Elizabethtown College.

"They typically are one-room facilities operated by Amish parents," Kraybill said. "There usually are not any security concerns or security risks in the schools, so this is quite a shock."

Aaron Meyer, who owns a buggy company in the nearby village of Bird in Hand, said the largely rural Amish country had experienced nothing like the crime in the 25 years he has lived in the area.

"Many of these townships there have no police at all, because there's no crime," Meyer told CNN.

On Wednesday, a 53-year-old man entered a high school in Bailey, Colorado, where he held several female students hostage at gunpoint. He shot one girl before killing himself seconds after a SWAT team stormed the classroom.

A high school student near Madison, Wisconsin, is suspected of fatally gunning down his principal on Friday, after he complained about being bullied and was disciplined for carrying tobacco.

Source: http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/02/ami...ing/index.html

[Splintered]

You know, I'd expect this in somewhere else, but three shootings within a week, and this time, in of all places, Amish country? This just seems insane.

[Neurosis]

In most schools in New York City, there are already preventions of shootings in schools. Installed in most school entrances are scanners, like those in an airport. We must remove all metal objects, and even the slightest aluminum gum wrapper will have the machine ring.

This system has limited the amount of shootings and weaponry in school. The circumstances are that the students will feel as if they are criminals. That is how we feel to be. It will decrease shootings, but it is not guaranteed that it'll wipe it completely.

All this does sound quite insane. And it is chained almost only in the U.S.

--Neurosis

[Darkbender423]

Man this whole slew of school shootings is becoming so absurd and sickning. These people are totally out of control with this shit, it makes me sick to think of it. These are our children, our pride and hope for the future. Do we have to make our schools "high security" facilities to keep our kids safe? What will come of all this nonsence? I think we will see schools becoming more like lock down before long, where every movement made on the campus is accounted for. It is such a shame that things are coming to this, knowing the way our government reacts to things I can see it coming in the near future. People like this who would prey on children are just sick in the head. How can we stop someone from doing this sort of thing if they are intent on doing it? How can we identify and deal with the problem before it arrises? How can we stop the madness before more innocent and bright children are murdered? It just seems like all these people a really trying to bring attention to their own suffering and pain but they are just pathetic and weak minded people. It's so sad to think that people will go to the lengths that they do just to get attention for their own ignorant shit. Anyone who would prey on children should receive no mercy in my opinon. Yet our system is a constant revolving door for child molesters, abusers, mentally disturbed assholes. I know that if anyone every laid a hand on one of my kids they better hope the cops get to them before I do because I would be one cruel, merciless mother fucker and their death would be slow and extremely painful!! As it should be!

[Splintered]

It just seems like all these people a really trying to bring attention to their own suffering and pain but they are just pathetic and weak minded people.

They're the ones staring down the sights of the gun, and we the barrel.
What makes us superior to them?

It's so sad to think that people will go to the lengths that they do just to get attention for their own ignorant shit.

It's even sadder to think we didn't pay enough attention.

[angel011]

Originally Posted by Splintered

They're the ones staring down the sights of the gun, and we the barrel.
What makes us superior to them?

The fact that we don't need to point a gun at anybody in order to get the attention we need?

Originally Posted by Splintered

It's even sadder to think we didn't pay enough attention.

Is it? What did they do to deserve attention? If we can do something valuable enough to get attention, why can't they?

[bleedingheart344]

It truly is sad that people are that ignorant and primitive. I mean, shouldn't we have evolved past the whole 'pay attention to me or I'll kill you' thing? Speaking of shootings, I just need to make a comment on the goths that have commited school shootings. They are weak, if they are doing this out of being teased and tormented, then why even be goth? They should have known what else came with being goth. They just couldn't handle it and then they took it too far. Now we are frowned upon by everyone because of stereotyping and negative portrayal in the media. I don't want to be pitied for this. It's just a shame things got to this point.

[Crying_Crimson_Tears]

This is so sad. In less than a week, 3 shootings??? This is horrendous. I absolutely hate it. How can one do this to another??? It's disgusting and horrible. The families that get left behind, the ones who have to suffer. Do people have no sense of guilt anymore??? I pray for those are still in critical condition and I pray for the families who are suffering.

[Darkbender423]

Splintered--

The things that seperates us from people like that is that most of us find ways to deal with our emotional issues in a constructive way instead of shooting helpless children in the head. How can you even sit there and defend some sick fuck like this? Can you imagine taking a 6 yr. old and putting a bullet in her head? What amount of suffering can possible justify such and action? No one can help another human being unless they really want to be helped. This guy never reached out for help for his pain, he reached for a fucking gun! Should all of us who are suffering do the same? What kind of world would this be? There is simply no excuse for anyone to commit such a vile act on children, no matter how bad they are suffering. If he wanted to merely commit suicide, more power to him. I support a persons right to end their own life if they so choose, but no one has the right to make that decision for another human being. It's just wrong and if you don't understand that then perhaps you should seek therapy yourself before you end up falling prey to the dillusion that it is somehow ok to do such things. I bet you're a cutter aren't you?

As a parent this kind of thing pisses me off to no end, there is no excuse and there is no justification for what this guy or any of the others have done. So what if you had a hard time in life, mommy didn't care, got picked on in school, abused by parents or any of the other excuses that go flying about at times like this. Who gives a fuck!! Life is hard and each of us go through our own personal hell at times. That is no excuse to go killing children who haven't had a chance to even experiance their own potential or make any of their dreams come true. Our thoughts should be on preventing such acts from happening and with healing the one's left to deal with their pain, suffering and confusion.

[Neurosis]

These two articles relate as to how the third shooting affected this country:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15111439/

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15111438/

The first article relates to my school building, who already has metal detectors.

--Neurosis

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by bleedingheart344

It truly is sad that people are that ignorant and primitive. I mean, shouldn't we have evolved past the whole 'pay attention to me or I'll kill you' thing?

Actually, there's no animal that would ever make such a nonsensical act.
So, although not technically, between devolution and evolution, it would be the latter one.
Humans have grown without a competitor for such long time that they began fighting against each other.
The lack of the laws in the wilderness, but the need to have them (which led to humans creating new laws), is what messed up our minds, in my oppinion.

[RobinGreenwood]

As tragic as it is, I can't help wondering why there are so many so close together, seemingly unrelated. We can only hope this sort of thing doesn't continue.

I don't know why this sort of thing happens more in the states (I'm in Canada so we're not that much better), and I hate to see this, but there's something wrong in a society where people feel so disconnected from others around them that they would resort to something like this. I think it's because we have everything we need to satisfy our biological needs, so we can focus more on emotional needs than in other parts of the world. Like why depression is so much more common in North America. Still, it is very tragic that these things happen, and I can only hope that when I have kids I can feel much safer about sending them to school.

[BlackButterfly]

Originally Posted by RobinGreenwood

there's something wrong in a society where people feel so disconnected from others around them that they would resort to something like this. I think it's because we have everything we need to satisfy our biological needs, so we can focus more on emotional needs than in other parts of the world. Like why depression is so much more common in North America.

maybe the "killing each other" thing is more popular in North America, but in Japan, they have an epidemic just as tragic: high school students are killing themselves. Theoretically, it's about the deterioration of the family environment due to rigorous work schedules, just like in the US.

Either way, things like this are sad and ridiculous. Obviously this guy was insane and weak-minded to take out "revenge" on the Amish community if they had nothing to do with whatever happened in his past. He probably did it because they were so peace-loving he knew that he would have an easier time accessing the female children. How detestable...

[Splintered]

Originally Posted by Darkbender423

The things that seperates us from people like that is that most of us find ways to deal with our emotional issues in a constructive way instead of shooting helpless children in the head. How can you even sit there and defend some sick fuck like this? Can you imagine taking a 6 yr. old and putting a bullet in her head? What amount of suffering can possible justify such and action? No one can help another human being unless they really want to be helped.

Or, they have no other option in their minds. Our society isn't that flexible. If I know that if I seek out for help, that they'll put me in a mental institution, why should I show up for therapy? Why should I ask for help, when I know they're not going to give me the help I want? I cannot imagine an existance where I am simply drugged, because I have different feelings then the rest of society.

The amount of suffering doesn't even have to matter. If they consider themself at war with society, then why should we stop them? Some fight criminals with brutal hands, they fight back. Some preach the gospels, others preach Atheism. A constant war. Some people choose to fight it with words. Instead, others choose to fight it with a gun.

I don't like it, I don't support it, but it's the way it is.

I support a persons right to end their own life if they so choose, but no one has the right to make that decision for another human being. It's just wrong and if you don't understand that then perhaps you should seek therapy yourself before you end up falling prey to the dillusion that it is somehow ok to do such things. I bet you're a cutter aren't you?

I'm trying to keep this civil, and not have it explode into a flamewar, so I would please ask that you keep your derrogatory comments and inferences, politely to yourself. If you must know, I do not cut myself, and I fancy myself as having a perfectly healthy psyche.

"It's just wrong", also does not make sense. If we do not have the right to make that decision for another human being, how can you justify a war? Or defending yourself with lethal force?

As a parent this kind of thing pisses me off to no end, there is no excuse and there is no justification for what this guy or any of the others have done. So what if you had a hard time in life, mommy didn't care, got picked on in school, abused by parents or any of the other excuses that go flying about at times like this. Who gives a fuck!! Life is hard and each of us go through our own personal hell at times.

And this is the exact reason why some people do it. Society preaches to them that no one gives a fuck. And they in turn no longer feel apart of society, and fight back.

That is no excuse to go killing children who haven't had a chance to even experiance their own potential or make any of their dreams come true. Our thoughts should be on preventing such acts from happening and with healing the one's left to deal with their pain, suffering and confusion.

And when one is hit so hard, they can't ask for help? Then what? You scream of no excuses, what if society didn't care? What if for one moment, society really didn't give a flying fuck about their suffering, pain, and confusion, and when they thought about getting help, they realized they would loose everything they have? Then what?

The fact that we don't need to point a gun at anybody in order to get the attention we need?

How do you know? How do you know that anyone would have listened beyond, "Oh, this guys just a crazy. Drug him?" It's not superiority. It's putting yourself high on the mountain, because of a false sense of being "Better". But, you're not much better if you're dead.

Is it? What did they do to deserve attention? If we can do something valuable enough to get attention, why can't they?

They did do something to gain attention. They shot up the place.
The spotlight is a singular position, with only one slot that can be filled at a time. Not everyone can get in that spot.

We wage war on the insane, they wage war on us, I suppose.

[Godslayer Jillian]

I would mostly agree with Splintered.
There's no reasonable argument to say that killing is wrong.
It only seems wrong unto the eyes of the majority, and it has become a norm.
But, saying that he only did this because of justifiable psychological problems is a theory that has no evidence.

[Darkbender423]

Splintered--

First I must give you my sincere appology for the cutter remark. I got a little exasperated by the whole thing. I am sorry for that.

You are right about the world being in a constant state of war. It comes at us from all sides. And I can understand what you mean by people being afraid of asking for help. Therapy rarely helps and people who have those types of thoughts do often end up in institutions. Murder is a part of the natural world, it is just sad that this is how the world is and that these are the types of actions that some feel they must resort to in order to bring themselves to satisfaction. I don't think this guy was at war with society as much as with his own mind and the demons of his past that he could not control. I understand the points you have made here and I will concede to some of them. My 'who gives a fuck" comment was simply to point out that we all have issues and that those issues do not justify the murder of innocent children or anyone else for that matter. Civilazation is not so civilized sometimes.I don't condone war and I don't condone murder and you are right that that is the way it is. I just think it is a sad state of affairs and it sucks that our world has to be that way. I guess as a parent it is difficult to accept that these things have to happen in our society. Hopefully someday we will evolve beyond the pettiness of self and live with more tolerence for one another.

I understand that not everyone's mind works the same way and that people have the right to express their emotions how they will. But as a society we have laws to protect the lives of others,that is the reason we should try to stop them. What about the right of the child who doesn't want to die? Honestly, I don't feel that we can justify war. As for protecting yourself, if it is in your power to do so it is only a natural reaction of the flight or fight reflex. If your life is in danger you would do what is necessary to protect that life. I know that I would put my life on the line to protect the life of any one of you if I truely thought that I could protect you from being killed and I don't know any of you.

I will agree that the state of the theraputical world is lacking but if a person truely wants help for their suffering then there are some resorces out there to truely help them. They may be difficult to find but they are there. The most difficult part for most is bringing themselves to seek it out. I don't think a lot of people will humble themselves enough to do so, it is difficult and the drugs are like putting a band aid on a gushing artery. You are right about that as well. There are however some truely compassionate people out there who will honestly try to help others. However they are few and far between. One doesn't know the help they will recieve until they look for it and open up to it. It is as much a personal choice as picking up a gun and killing. Either a person will open up to it or they won't.

I cannot say why people like this do the things they do, I don't understand it and I don't have an answer to solve the problems of the suffering. There is a lot of suffering out there and unfortunately there is no end in sight. I appologize if I came off as a bit of a dick about the whole thing.

[angel011]

How do you know? How do you know that anyone would have listened beyond, "Oh, this guys just a crazy. Drug him?" It's not superiority. It's putting yourself high on the mountain, because of a false sense of being "Better". But, you're not much better if you're dead.

What I'm saying is that we all have problems. We all feel hurt at times, or worse. But some of us -- the superior ones, if you wish -- don't choose shooting other people as a way to ease the pain and get the attention. We choose something else, something which doesn't harm other people. We choose something constructive instead of destructive.

They did do something to gain attention. They shot up the place.

I said "something valuable enough". Killing helpless children isn't valuable. Every moron (I don't mean 'moron' as a medical term) can get destructive. Doing something constructive is a bit more difficult, that's why it is valuable of attention.

[Splintered]

Originally Posted by angel011

What I'm saying is that we all have problems. We all feel hurt at times, or worse. But some of us -- the superior ones, if you wish -- don't choose shooting other people as a way to ease the pain and get the attention. We choose something else, something which doesn't harm other people. We choose something constructive instead of destructive.

I saw a quote the other day, and I believe it can apply directly to this: Destruction is just another form of construction. They constructed a gaint media spectacle. They created a new type of hell we have to think about, everpressing on our minds.

Originally Posted by angel011

I said "something valuable enough". Killing helpless children isn't valuable. Every moron (I don't mean 'moron' as a medical term) can get destructive. Doing something constructive is a bit more difficult, that's why it is valuable of attention.

Children are valuable, and killing them is taking their value away. Sure, everyone can get destructive, but it takes someone with skill to cause that much panic and chaos.

What about the right of the child who doesn't want to die?

From their perspective: You don't care about my problem, I don't care about yours.

I will agree that the state of the theraputical world is lacking but if a person truely wants help for their suffering then there are some resorces out there to truely help them.

Are you sure the word you are looking for is "Help", or is it "Contain"?

There are however some truely compassionate people out there who will honestly try to help others. However they are few and far between. One doesn't know the help they will recieve until they look for it and open up to it.

If I know that if I open up, I run the slight chance of getting help, versus the majoral chance of being shuffled away, which do you think would be the logical choice to take? Keep in mind, I'm looking for the best deal I can get.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by angel011

Killing helpless children isn't valuable. Every moron (I don't mean 'moron' as a medical term) can get destructive. Doing something constructive is a bit more difficult, that's why it is valuable of attention.

Originally Posted by Splintered

it takes someone with skill to cause that much panic and chaos.

I have to point out something wrong with these arguements.
Killing helpless children is valuable in that it satisfied whatever desire that man had. Value hasn't anything to do with morals.
And that's why, also, doing something constructive isn't more valuable of attention. If it were so, deviant behaviors wouldn't get this much attention.
But, also, it doesn't take a skilled person to cause this much panic and chaos. Anyone can kill someone, even with a pen, I would dare to guess. But it takes a wretched mind to be able to do so.

[angel011]

And that's why, also, doing something constructive isn't more valuable of attention.

Ok, doing something constructive is more valuable of my attention (not that I think that this guy was interested in my attention). I've seen far too much destruction to be impressed by it.

[Xan]

I admire the Amish for their resiliance in the face of this sensless crime against innocence. They have forgiven and offered a place for the wife of this confused killler. Now I know I could not do that if someone killed my boys. There is something to be said for the Amish and that is they are good people. Why do ppl fuck with them not cool