Agnosticism

[Draconysius]

I've noticed quite a lot of people here claiming agnosticism. Simply put, I wanted to ask a few questions to them.

1.What is agnosticism to you?
2.When did you "become" agnostic?
3.What triggered this belief?

My answers:
1.At its simplest form, it is being neutral on the existence of a god/s.
2.Actually it was late last year. I had just dropped Satanism. It wasn't intriguing to me.
3.Thinking and researching. I reach MANY a milestone of intellectuality through simple sitting and pondering.

[Vyvian Blackthorne]

I would have to identify myself as agnostic. What does it mean to me? Well, a retrospective of god-questioning the concpets and not quite as extreme as faith or atheism. Though sometimes I do consider myself an atheist...

[Temptation]

I've been agnostic for about 3 years. I was christian but it didn't satisfy my meaning for existence. Then I thought about atheism but it doesn't really make sense to me to believe in nothing. So, agnostic was the next thing, I thought about. I'm more of an agnostic-theist. What is it to me? Well, I guess on a personal level it would be the belief in a god but in more of a general level. I believe in a god but I don't specify a religion. I could go into detail and explain what I mean but I would be typing forever.

[Cicero]

I've never understood how people can just 'switch' from one belief system to another. If one doesn't work for you, you probably didn't truly believe it in the first place.

I'd probably be considered agnostic, but I wouldn't call myself that. I do believe in some form of 'god', but it's more of a force of nature than a traditional white-bearded Zeus sitting up on a cloud throwing lightning bolts down to earth (though it certainly is a lovely thought).

Classification of any religion irks me though. To me belief is like DNA: everyone is completely different, no matter how similar they may seem. After all, we all possess our own unique view of the universe, and have different experiences to base our theories on. There's no right or wrong answer, because it's something we're meant to ponder over - just another aspect of being human.

Hmmmm... I'm running dangerously close to going on forever about this, all the while contradicting myself a million times over. I'll stop now.

[Valerius]

Being spoon-fed your religion isn't a very fun thing especially if it's a requirement in my college. I guess to some degree my dislike for the preiest-professor's methods of teaching and what he teaches pushes me sometimes to really think hard about the things he teaches me because it borders oh-so-close to bullshit to me. I also see often that what he presents is debatable in the open world, and is often very unpolitically-correct.

I do believe in a God, but I can't find myself believing in the Church for some reason. I do believe in the teachings of Jesus, but I find what the Church adds on to it to be superfluous. Correct me if I'm wrong or straying, but I think things like confession and prayers should be left to the relationship between you and your God, not at church or with a priest.

But is the church not the foundation that Jesus built with his sacrifice? So if I am disobeying what the church commands then I am disobeying God/Jesus. If one is the product of the other, then Jesus can just as easily be the product of the Church! I sure hope not, but I think it's things like these that make me a psuedo-agnostic in a sense these questions just won't go away from my head.

I still believe in God, but if the Church is a product of God's handiwork, then to see imperfections in the Church would go against what they teach us as a 'perfect' God.

[honeythorn]

I guess you could say I am an agnostic pagan. I believe that there is a driving force of some sort, that has been interpreted by man ( humans ) as being this god or that god, or in the case of many pagan traditions, both gods and goddesses, each representing various things such as seasonal cycles, birth death rebirth, battle, fertility ect...I have a great respect for the earth, and paganism is an earth based belief, encompassing many other beliefs and religions, and this suits me down to the ground ( hey, was that a pun? ) I don't believe in a particular distinct god or goddess. I just think that there is a universal force which we have given names, images and mythologies to, in order to try and explain our beginnings ( and ends ) and become comfortable with our own existance.

I have always been agnostic. I have never, and will never be christian. I believe that Jesus existed, and that he was excecuted for speaking his mind and so on, but the son of a god? no, I don't believe that at all. I certainly think he had a gift for healing, as many do today, but the teachings of christianity simply don't suit me. I believe that if you are going to follow any faith, it's beliefs and teachings should really touch you and strike a chord within, it should feel " right ", and to me, christianity does not do any of these things. Never has.

As above, nothing has triggered this belief, I have always believed this. Recently I have been researching witchcraft, wicca, druidry and shamanism, as these interest me greatly, and in future I may decide to begin the practices of one or more of these, in order to help find out more about myself, and where I belong within the natural world, insofar as I can.

[Godslayer Jillian]

And there's a great fallacy in believing that the probability of the existence of God is 50/50.
That logic is stating that the probability is perfectly split between the number of theories. And that itself is justified by saying that 'there's no way to prove one theory is correct and the other is not'
But that's the whole point of probability. Make an estimated guess of something we don't know by the things we do.
There's a cold front that will provoke a rainy week.
It rains the first day.
There's rain the second day.
There's rain the third day.
It doesn't seem the rain is going to stop on the fourth day, but we cannot know if it will rain or not until it happens. That doesn't stop us from predicting whether it will rain or not.

[Valerius]

I may not be good at numbers, and in fact I hate math in college right now, but I don't need numbers to help me remember one experience that changed my life a few years back.

A few years back we had a chapel built in our countryside estate of sorts, and had the usual mass and festivities where a lot of people attended. When all was said and done my family noticed one of the gold caps of those cup things used by the priest to drink wine was missing. We tried looking for it but couldn't find it so we just resigned ourselves to buying a new set.

A week later my grandfather was inspecting the feedmill and I was asked to stay behind at the farm, and I did for the most part, anyway. I was restless though, kept fidgeting and getting this feeling I should walk to the grassy area behind the feedmill, so I did. When I was walking around for apparently no reason other than that given to me by that mysterious being inside my head, I caught a glimpse of something sparkling out of the corner of my vision and saw it was the gold cap that was missing from the church. I showed it to my grandfather and we returned it to its rightful place.

So, am I crazy, a liar or am I justified in saying that there was something/someone out there who told me to go to this certain spot where the golden cap was so that His home will be complete again? I guess I feel I am, but the reader of what I just shared will be the judge.

Sorry if it's OT. Just wanted to share.

[Drake Dun]

So, am I crazy, a liar or am I justified in saying that there was something/someone out there who told me to go to this certain spot where the golden cap was so that His home will be complete again? I guess I feel I am, but the reader of what I just shared will be the judge.

You are justified in wondering, speculating, guessing or even suspecting. But if you're a good thinker, you are not justified in feeling confident.

Drake

[Valerius]

I guess that event just holds a special meaning for me. I mean it may not mean anything to anyone else, but does your relationship with your mom mean anything to me? I think not!

Drake, for all your intents and purposes, I can't follow your line of thinking that if I'm a good thinker then I shouldn't feel confident. I may be thinking on a different line but spirituality and reason reside in totally different levels for me. To each his own I guess.

I guess I'm more 'agnostic' on the level of whether the church actually painted the pretty picture of God as we see it, or if he is actually that way. Wish I could contribute more, but my mind's a jumble as of the moment.

[LaBelleDameSansMerci]

I'm agnostic. It's not REALLY that I don't know whether there is a god or not, or whether I believe it's existence/non-existence can be proven, it's more that I don't care if there's a god or not. I have other things to think about. Like art.

I never really had a religion. I used to call myself an atheist before I learned about agnosticism and decided it described me better.

I was raised with a non-practising catholic mother, and a fundamentalist-atheist father. I occasionally was dragged to church when my grandparents were here, or when I was at my grandparents'. I used to say, when I was about 6, that I only believed in God around Christmas.

If you believe it's chance, then that's what it is to you. If you believe it's divine will, then that's what it is to you. Just depends on how you look at it.

[DarkHeartedDemoness]

I don't know what I am. I'm trying to figure out if I'm a deist, a theist, or an agnostic. It's really quite confusing.

[Drake Dun]

Originally Posted by Valerius

Drake, for all your intents and purposes, I can't follow your line of thinking that if I'm a good thinker then I shouldn't feel confident.

Sorry, that was phrased badly. What I meant was, you should not be confident in your conclusion that God somehow had a hand in making the gold thingy show up where you walked.

Drake

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by DarkHeartedDemoness

I don't know what I am. I'm trying to figure out if I'm a deist, a theist, or an agnostic. It's really quite confusing.

When it comes to faith, it has to make sense to the mind, yes. But follow your heart too.


What feels right to you? This isn't science, so you are allowed to consider your feelings as well as logic.

[knightmare]

Basing religion on one's emotions or feelings is ineffectual. If it was religion would be viewed as a coping mechanism (as Marx viewed it) or a human invention used for the control and manipulation of weaker or gullible individuals. Not to mention the range the human emotions and circumstances which affect one's religious stance.

[Circle V]

Originally Posted by Super Spright

Logic is prior to feelings; this always is true.

Seconded. Saying it makes me sound like a fucking robot, but it's true.

[Drake Dun]

I disagree entirely. Feelings are much more innate. Logic has to be learned, and a lot of people... well, never really learn it. It is astounding how bad most people are at logical reasoning, and this isn't because they are in denial. It is because they really truly are bad reasoners.

Even in those who do learn logic, emotions continue to play a bigger role when you look behind the scenes. Want an ironic example? The devotion to logical thinking patterns just expressed, itself is emotive rather than logical. Hence the choice of the abstract "prior", which does not indicate any concrete relationship accessible to logical reasoning, and can only be an evaluation of importance.

As for feelings playing a role in religion... it seems to me that religion is based pretty much purely on feelings. Certainly we do not get much religion out of logic or science. What disgusts me is that the feeling giving rise to most of the familiar forms of religion is fear. Fear of life (and death) and fear of being an outsider.

Think about it. Imagine that you are truly innocent. Nobody has taught you to throw out illogical ideas, nor has anybody taught you to believe in some particular religion, with all its dogmas and trappings. Then the story about the gold thingy above happens to you.

Here are some things which might occur to you:

1) The gold thingy was stolen from the man by little fairies, but afterward they felt guilty so they led you to it.

2) The gold thingy was dropped by somebody or otherwise found its way out into the field by human agency. You found it because you have a special power.

3) There is a magical tree lady who lives in the tree in that field. She felt bad about the lost thingy so she made a new one for you.

Here is something that would definitely not occur to you:

1) It was the work of a single supreme being, the only supernatural power which exists, responsible for the creation of the entire universe and who sent his only son to be nailed to a piece of wood because for some reason this gives you a chance to be saved from a an inferno of endless pain to which you would otherwise be committed upon your eventual death.

Yet that is exactly what did occur to the previous poster. Why? Because some assholes got inside his head and defiled his natural creativity with their sadistic dream of fear and power. They want him to believe that if he doesn't pay in to their theology he is bad and he is going to get punished for it.

I suppose it doesn't require pointing out that many of the people involved in this brainwashing process have an obvious financial interest in it. That's why to me no religion can be taken seriously if it has professional clergymen.

Religion is based on feelings, yes. And there is also a tendency among people to naturally unify their thinking on things. So we see a certain cohesion in the beliefs of primitive peoples, or in the Vedic and Buddhist traditions, for example. But we see also a continuous outpouring of new ideas and original religious spirit in many of these systems.

The Jealous God, on the other hand, will tolerate no such thing. His religions, Christianity being no exception, are not about giving wings to spirituality. They are about building cages filled with prisoners grateful for the monsters the cages are there to keep out.

Here is another thing that would not occur to you:

2) None of the three previous explanations can possibly be true if we think about the situation carefully, because... [insert train of logic here].

Science, though, has a couple of key advantages. First, the way it responds to fairies is not "you must not believe in that", but "there is no particular reason to believe in that from a scientific standpoint, and so we are not interested in it in science". Second, it is honest. It does what it says and says what it does. Third, while it may trample our dreams unintentionally from time to time, it does teach us things about our world.

Unlike Abrahamic religion, which only teaches us fear and hate, which it calls "love".

Drake

[Valerius]

Well, I can't really put together a sentence like that, but believe me when I say that I didn't think it was some fairy or wood nymph that stole the gold cap. Actually we had some pretty suspicious farm hands back at that time and we suspected it was this one guy with sticky fingers who was responsible for its disappearance.

I take offence at what some people reason religion may actually be, but I'm man enough to respect their views and smile. It's their life, so what right do I have to meddle with it? I have my reasons for believing in my God, so I wish people would respect my views as much as I would theirs.

[Linen]

1.What is agnosticism to you?
To me, it means (at the moment at least) that I won't be tied-down to a single set of beliefs, and I'd rather be labeled a fence-sitter than to be labeled as not believing in anything. The only religions I would consider to be closely aligned with my personal spiritual beliefs are Paganism and Buddhism, and possibly also the Hindu religion. I was "raised" Lutheran, as in, my mother made me go to church with her, but she always told me to be open-minded and that just because I went didn't mean I had to believe. She just wanted me to at least have knowledge of the mainstream Protestant Christan beliefs so I wouldn't feel too "weird" otherwise.

2.When did you "become" agnostic?
I think I've always felt that my beliefs weren't aligned with Christian beliefs, but I never felt that it was OK (as in, socially acceptable) to be unsure until late high school/early college. I did a lot of research of Pagan and Wiccan information starting when I was around 14, and I still find those to be fascinating and close to my beliefs today. I just don't practice anything, and I'm not sure whether I want to. I live my life by a set of morals that is similar to most peoples' morals, regardless of religion. I respect humans, animals, nature, and life in general. I'm a pacifist, a vegetarian, and a liberal. Those are the only labels that I can definititively give to myself.

3.What triggered this belief?
*Feeling out of place in church, even as a very young child.
*Not wanting to believe that life is so cut-and-dry that there is a "plan" for me.
*Being unsure as to wether anyone was really "up there" listening to me other than, perhaps, my dead relatives and ancestors. I do believe in spirits, just not necssarily in the Holy Trinity.
*More recently, not believing in Hell. I don't believe that there could be such a torturous, evil place. I think that people make their own Hell on Earth when they make decisions to harm other people or themselves.
*Learning about karma and reincarnation, and believing in those.

[Linen]

^^ too late to add to the last question:
*Not believing that (if there was a) God could be loving and yet should be feared. Respected sure, but feared? No. The one thing I prefer about Lutheranism over other Christian sects is that they believe God is a loving God above all else - not someone who should instill fear or "wrath".
*Believing that spirits are all around us, in nature - in the leaves and trees, in the flowers, in the sky, in the rain, in the water, in the animals, and in us.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Logic is indeed prior to feelings. That feelings override logic doesn't change the first statement.

[DarkHeartedDemoness]

Originally Posted by HumanePain

When it comes to faith, it has to make sense to the mind, yes. But follow your heart too.


What feels right to you? This isn't science, so you are allowed to consider your feelings as well as logic.

I don't know what feels right. I don't know fucking anything at all about how I feel or what I believe, and it's driving me insane.

[Panther]

Originally Posted by Valerius

I do believe in a God, but I can't find myself believing in the Church for some reason. I do believe in the teachings of Jesus, but I find what the Church adds on to it to be superfluous. Correct me if I'm wrong or straying, but I think things like confession and prayers should be left to the relationship between you and your God, not at church or with a priest.

That very thought is the reason I'm no longer a catholic. I'm not agnostic, I believe very firmly in a higher power. I just believe in it/them differently than I used to.

[Vyvian Blackthorne]

I agree. No one should try and be something that they're not, unless they want it.

[Vyvian Blackthorne]

...oh, yes, I see Spright's returned from the Korova. He is making posts once again!