What is...

KontanKarite · 04-03-2007, 01:10 PM

Goth rock? I know that sounds silly and it's been covered 1000000000 times here I'm sure.

But as of late, I've heard so much shit from "elitist" that would pipe off and say one group is goth rock while another one is not.

I'm not interested in goth friendly music. There's a LOT of that.

What I'm getting at, is if Goth rock is a style of music, what defines them as such? My understanding is that it's very introspective lyrics with a heavy emphasis on tribalish bass and drums, less emphasis on guitar, and a dash of midi synth for the hell of it.

The problem with this is, someone who acts like they know what they're talking about will say one band such as Specimen is goth rock as well as London After Midnight. If that were the case, you'd think there'd be a common relation to sound in both, but I am missing it entirely.

When you hear country, no matter who is playing it, you know it's country. When you hear jazz, no matter the artist, you know it's jazz.

My question is if there is anyone out there that is NOT confused about what goth rock is and can recognize it being either a band from the past or a present band?

And please keep the whole sub genre thing out of it. I don't want someone to start talking about goth rock and start bleeding into deathrock or industrial.

Any purists out there?

Minyaliel · 04-03-2007, 01:30 PM

I've read up on this a bit, and as I understand it, gothic rock and death rock were interchangeable terms in the 70's and early 80's. So I guess all, or most, "original" goth bands were goth rock (or new wave, but that's another matter entirely).

KontanKarite · 04-03-2007, 01:35 PM

That's what I'm trying to say. I don't think it's entirely definitive.

Even if someone was to put down the formula on a piece of paper and say "This is what goth rock sounds like, no questions about it."

Someone could follow that said formula and you would STILL have purists saying that it isn't goth rock for one reason or another.

Minyaliel · 04-03-2007, 02:08 PM

Well, but still there are some characteristics - the guitars, for instance, they don't sound like the usual heavy metal guitars (damn, where's my guitar terminology when I need it?!), the vocals aren't aggressive, more emotional/ introverted, the lyrics are often dark/ influenced by horror movies etc. Somehow, when I think of goth/ death rock, I start thinking about a "colder" kind of sound (Bauhaus being a prime example). According to Wikipedia, some of the first goth rock bands were Christian Death, Virgin Prunes and X-mal Deutschland. Christian Death is also widely recognized as a death rock band, while Wikipedia also mentions the two others as being so (although these have their own approach to things).

Links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_rock
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goth_rock

KontanKarite · 04-03-2007, 02:13 PM

I know. But how would one say they are goth rock and also say that London After Midnight is also goth rock? I can't see the resemblance at all.

Minyaliel · 04-03-2007, 02:20 PM

I know - that's the dilemma. I think that the meaning of the terms must've changed through the last decade or so, so that we now use either the broader "post punk", which encompasses pretty much any music which came to be when punk started to fade from the mainstream or "death rock" when talking about the original, more "punkish" goth music, while using the "gothic rock" term for music like LAM's. Also, the (modern) gothic rock term has been wrongly used to describe so- called "goth metal" bands, which has added even more confusion... *sigh*

KontanKarite · 04-03-2007, 02:35 PM

It's frustrating.

Though there are times that for this reason alone, I do not debate the music at all. I normally use gothic rock/music as an umbrella for all things goth friendly.

Minyaliel · 04-03-2007, 02:56 PM

Yes - personally, I prefer using the general term "gothic" for anything gothic and goth friendly if I don't know it's genre, because most people know that it's a general term and agree with that definition.

happy_dude · 04-03-2007, 11:05 PM

My definition of Goth Rock is a band that has some of these qualities (but not necessarily all - otherwise they'd all sound like Bauhaus

):
- Lyrics that are ostensibly happy and light-hearted, but on closer inspection cover dark, often taboo subjects. (eg. Peek-A-Boo - S&TB)
- Prominent (dare I say funky) basslines. (eg. Kick in the Eye - Bauhaus)
- Interesting and fairly minimalistic guitar work (eg, Bela Lugosi's Dead - Bauhaus).
- Tribal drumming with heavy use of the snare. (Anything by Killing Joke)
- Synthesiser backdrops to emphasis the atmosphere. (Darkness Before Dawn - Killing Joke)
- Dubbed vocals, so it sounds as if there are multiple singers. (eg. Candyman- S&TB)

Thar ye go. That's my take on it.

I don't think London After Midnight is Goth, I think they are Darkwave... but that's what I call Gothy stuff that's very electronic - I can't define it.

Draconysius · 04-05-2007, 08:14 PM

happy_dude has it completely right. He's said everything I was going to say. Tribal drums, darkness under an unsuspicious atmosphere, less emphasis on guitar (and I've found goth rock uses higher-pitched chords, rarely using the bottom string), and introspective metaphorical and surreal lyrics. London After Midnight can be called goth as they fit into the darkwave genre, but they're not gothic rock for sure.

KontanKarite · 04-05-2007, 11:32 PM

That's what I kinda figured because I agree with the definition you guys are saying about goth rock. It just sort of got my attention when this purist was saying LAM was goth ROCK and I sat down and compared both sounds of bands like Bauhaus and Sousxie to LAM and found no resemblance.