Gothic metal

[Draconysius]

I've been wondering for the longest time if a subgenre of heavy metal even deserves the label "gothic". If so, is it directly tied to the subculture, or is the word goth-IC more appropriate here?

I've been thinking hard rock bands that were formerly goth bands -like the Cult- could be considered gothic metal. Fields of the Nephilim could even moreso be, and maybe even the Killing Joke. Calling bands like these gothic metal I could understand.

But why is it, whenever I hear the term "gothic metal", it's targeted at some classic doom metal band with symphonic overtones and often with a female vocalist? I can see how that music can be tied to gothic literature of course, and if that's why I have no problem.

Any thoughts?

[Jarl]

Beseech
Cradle Of Filth
HIM
Lacuna Coil
Lacrimosa
Moonspell
Paradise Lost

Those are a couple of gothic metal bands according to wikipedia. Though like Paradise Lost (Who did some doom metal) those bands aren't limited to gothic metal or whatever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_metal

[Jarl]

Poeple hear anything heavy and dark with gloomy vocals and assume it's Gothic metal...

[Lykaios]

Originally Posted by Draconysius

I've been wondering for the longest time if a subgenre of heavy metal even deserves the label "gothic". If so, is it directly tied to the subculture, or is the word goth-IC more appropriate here?

I've been thinking hard rock bands that were formerly goth bands -like the Cult- could be considered gothic metal. Fields of the Nephilim could even moreso be, and maybe even the Killing Joke. Calling bands like these gothic metal I could understand.

But why is it, whenever I hear the term "gothic metal", it's targeted at some classic doom metal band with symphonic overtones and often with a female vocalist? I can see how that music can be tied to gothic literature of course, and if that's why I have no problem.

Any thoughts?

Actually, I believe some of the early bands claimed influence from the Gothic Rock genre. I give no credit whatsoever to the metal subgenre, however, as I think it's complete bullshit. In fact, I refuse to listen to any band that chooses to label themselves as such.

[jaisin]

Theatre Of Tragedy
Beseech
Tristania
Nightwish
Leaves Eyes
Sirenia
Its like switchblade Symphony there not gothic Metal but they got labeled Gothic when they said they were not.

[Jarl]

Originally Posted by jaisin

Nightwish

Nightwish is symphonic metal >.>

[qoute=lykaios] Actually, I believe some of the early bands claimed influence from the Gothic Rock genre. I give no credit whatsoever to the metal subgenre, however, as I think it's complete bullshit. In fact, I refuse to listen to any band that chooses to label themselves as such.[/quote]

Eh, who cares who calls themselves what or about genre? If a band is good then that's all that matters.

[KontanKarite]

I enjoy Nightwish. Well, symphonic metal is kind of nice to listen to. I think quite a few tunes by HIM are beautiful, but they're not goth by any means. Though I can see where they can relate to goths.

Actually, Ville Valo once said in an interview that his band WAS NOT goth by any means. Their dark subjects was a result of growing up in a place where people had a darker outlook on romance.

Gothic metal? Beats me. Alice Cooper anyone? *shrugs*

I really have no idea.

I wonder, we know what the formula is for goth rock and we know... pretty much, what it takes to have a metal band as well. So... how come no one has combined the two formulas?

[Vyvian Blackthorne]

God, Alice Cooper gothic metal? Kentucky's treating well, right??

Just kidd'n.
I like Nightwish and some of HIM, neither are goth. Paradise lost is gothic metal, Cradle of Filth is black...Eh....metal. I can't really think of anything else I like. But gothic metal is really far from gothic rock, it's more like doom/Mercy Fate-esque metal then goth.

[KontanKarite]

Oh vyvy, I was being tongue in cheek.

[Vyvian Blackthorne]

Good gothness Kontan, now I'm an arse I feel like a children's charecter substituting words like this but I think I rather enjoy it.

[Vyvian Blackthorne]

Goth bands, but more in specific, deathrock bands, are influenced by some metal. Citing most importantly, Christian Death-the American gothfathers and pioneers of deathrock (45 grave in a tight second place) such as Alice Cooper and early KISS (but mainly with make-up and image). Still, I see glam as a more important influence to goth musique then metal-Bowie, Roxy Music, T-Rex, and the underground punk rock scene are visibally stronger than metal (or as the pride perfers, MATEL)

[Vyvian Blackthorne]

...gee, sorry, forgot 'The Velvet Underground'....

[Vako]

Originally Posted by Draconysius

I've been wondering for the longest time if a subgenre of heavy metal even deserves the label "gothic". If so, is it directly tied to the subculture, or is the word goth-IC more appropriate here?

I've been thinking hard rock bands that were formerly goth bands -like the Cult- could be considered gothic metal. Fields of the Nephilim could even moreso be, and maybe even the Killing Joke. Calling bands like these gothic metal I could understand.

But why is it, whenever I hear the term "gothic metal", it's targeted at some classic doom metal band with symphonic overtones and often with a female vocalist? I can see how that music can be tied to gothic literature of course, and if that's why I have no problem.

Any thoughts?

This debate is still going on ???

There is a subclassification of Metal called Gothic Metal. It is inspired by goth, orchestral metal, and technical metal. It is intended to combine the artistic vision of Goth with the high-energy structure of Metal.

Draconysius (or whatever you call yourself). I think you have a personal bias. There is some prejudice going on, not to mention some feelings of cultural superiority. Take it easy, do your research, and understand that not everyone holds the same nomenclature or bizarre claim to the word "goth" as you.

No need to hold yourself as an authority on musicology.

[Draconysius]

Vako, I never made any claims that gothic metal isn't goth. I simply asked questions. The goth subculture is something I'm obsessed with and in love with, so I naturally want to know all I can about it. Knowledge is the highest good.

I agree with Vyvian about some deathrock bands beig influenced by metal. I mean, look at Tragic Black. They occasionally use black metal-style vocals. And Voodoo church use guitar tones and riffs that are dinstinctly metal (see: Zombie-a-Go-Go).

Metal was, to a certain degree, a part of the goth music scene. Or rather, several goth bands had a metal flavor to them. I guess now several METAL bands have a GOTH flavor to them.

[Vako]

I misinterpreted your post.

[Godslayer Jillian]

We had already discussed this a little.
Gothic Metal doesn't stem from Goth. That's the whole big issue.
It stems from metal, and just has a very gothic feeling to it. More from gothic literature than the gothic subculture; but then again the subculture is also influenced by gothic literature.
If Gothic Metal was a kind of Gothic rock, I picture Lacrimosa, Voodoo Church, and some Shadow Project in it.
But as it's a kind of metal, the bands before-mentioned fit in the category.

[Vako]

Originally Posted by Lykaios

Actually, I believe some of the early bands claimed influence from the Gothic Rock genre. I give no credit whatsoever to the metal subgenre, however, as I think it's complete bullshit. In fact, I refuse to listen to any band that chooses to label themselves as such.

One hopes you have medical insurance to pay for a visit to a proctologist. There they will find your head.

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'...

[Lykaios]

[quote=Vako]One hopes you have medical insurance to pay for a visit to a proctologist. There they will find your head.

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'...[/QUOTE

Perhaps an elaboration on my earlier post would've been best.

Gothic metal is almost entirely different from Gothic rock. Yet, people still think that these so-called "Gothic metal" bands are GOTH, when they aren't. If one of these bands calls themselves Goth, they've pretty much automatically ensured that I will never listen to them. I don't care for the genre anyways, and the few bands that I listen to which are sometimes referred to as Gothic metal--I saw Type O Negative on Sunday night-- don't consider themselves Goth.

They're not taking over my subculture. In my opinion, they should've found a different fucking adjective. It confuses people.

[Vako]

[quote=Lykaios]

Originally Posted by Vako

I saw Type O Negative on Sunday night-- don't consider themselves Goth.

They're not Metal, either. They're a Hard Rock band.

[Vyvian Blackthorne]

Originally Posted by Draconysius

The goth subculture is something I'm obsessed with and in love with, so I naturally want to know all I can about it. Knowledge is the highest good.

.

good gothness, I love you.

[happy_dude]

Originally Posted by Lykaios

They're not taking over my subculture. In my opinion, they should've found a different fucking adjective. It confuses people.

Deathrock, Death Metal.

Many very different genres have similar names, get over it.

[Draconysius]

Originally Posted by happy_dude

Deathrock, Death Metal.

Many very different genres have similar names, get over it.

Huh. Nice summary.

[Vako]

I still say that it is possible to be into both or to be able and appreciate both. I have seen it happen. Some individuals manage to combine the two.

[Vako]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

I wonder, we know what the formula is for goth rock and we know... pretty much, what it takes to have a metal band as well. So... how come no one has combined the two formulas?

People have.

[Vako]

Originally Posted by Draconysius

Vako, I never made any claims that gothic metal isn't goth. I simply asked questions. The goth subculture is something I'm obsessed with and in love with, so I naturally want to know all I can about it. Knowledge is the highest good.

I agree with Vyvian about some deathrock bands beig influenced by metal. I mean, look at Tragic Black. They occasionally use black metal-style vocals. And Voodoo church use guitar tones and riffs that are dinstinctly metal (see: Zombie-a-Go-Go).

Metal was, to a certain degree, a part of the goth music scene. Or rather, several goth bands had a metal flavor to them. I guess now several METAL bands have a GOTH flavor to them.

I am also learning about Goth culture. Metalers should not refer to themselves as Goth, and Goths should not refer to themselves as Metalers. I can see how some true, died-in-the-wool Goths want to preserve the purity of their subculture. Those people that like both can make their subscene or subculture without infiltrating or polluting each other's subcultures. That is one point of view I have noticed in some people in both subcultures. In my opinion that could be interpreted as good or bad.

stylistically and musicologically I strongly believe we can co-exist.