Baby Bats: a Necessary Evil

[Draconysius]

After what my mate said last night, I've been thinking about the subject of baby bats. This morning, something occurred to me that put me at great rest. I wanted to share it with you all.

Goth has always been a subculture whose heart lies underground; I think we all know that by now. But what of baby bats, those sk8ers-in-black who falsely believe themselves to be goths? I believe strongly that they are an integral part to goth itself. Since goth has always been underground, away from the prying eyes of the mainstream, what would happen because the mainstream got the wrong idea about goth, and started using our name? They'd pretty much keep on believing goth is something it's not, and associating baby bats with it, while leaving the true heart of goth untouched and more underground than before, since all the attention is being given to a... sort of decoy-scene.

Whenever I've tried to convince a baby bat that they just aren't goth, it doesn't work, 99% of the time. No matter what we do or say, the mainstream will not believe anything other than what they want to believe. And perhaps they have every right to. After all, we are ridiculing them for their taste in music, or the clothes they wear. We're resulting to no less than name-calling to defend our scene, while theirs lies unaffected and still prospers. Some of us believe that, by being misled, baby bats are destroying goth. But tell me this: is it common for baby bats to listen to Bauhaus and Siouxsie and have excellent DiY skills? All that they're really doing is helping us to hide our true nature. We've always been like a secret society, all with our handshakes, customs, traditions, etc.

So, the way I see it, baby bats are helping goth prosper. From now on, whenever I'm asked what goth music I like, I'm still going to say "I prefer old-school goth, like..." because some of them may actually want to hear that music. But I'm not, however, going to just bring up the fact that "this or that band's not goth" because frankly, baby bats don't care to believe you. They're in the process of growing up and trying to find themselves. We are like big brothers to them, whom they look up to and try to imitate in every way. They don't exactly get the right idea, but that doesn't mean we should wipe them out.

I still believe bands like H.I.M, My Chem, and A.F.I. are total pigs, but only because they're money-worshipping, lying bastards. They actually know they're not goth; they just lie about it, in a sense, to their audience. In short, they're the man. Nonetheless, I respect anyone's choice to like them or hate them.

[Aaroneet]

You're right. I've honestly never thought about it that way before. Then again, I used to have a friend with whom I immersed myself in the Goth scene. Maybe I should elaborate; she said she was "going Goth" in an instant message, and asked if I wanted to join. I agreed, although, at first, we were immersed, almost by accident seemingly, into the mainstream. We were babybats in the utmost sense of the word; eventually, we did our own research, and found out that what we were following was not a Goth scene at all. Even so, I found a sort of new conviction in it; a new, more invigorated sense of self, if you will. At first, I felt completely duped, but I liked the idea of a uniting idea in music and fashion. Put simply, even though I didn't follow the subculture correctly at first, I felt comfortable in my own skin, and that's something I would never have wanted to give up. If it meant changing my music tastes just to maintain that comfort level, I would do it in a heartbeat. And I found new solace in the music, and what is actually Goth. My friend, on the other hand, stayed with her old musical tastes, and decided she was comfortable with herself.

There lies a level of comfort, I think, if one can stay with what is mainstream. I don't always agree with the concept that it is a fad. I used to make feeble attempts at dressing the part of a Goth, which others in my school picked up on. Now that I've changed, so to speak, I don't try to discourage it. I'll just accept it for what it is. As you phrased so eloquently, baby bats are a necessary evil.

[Draconysius]

Originally Posted by Aaroneet

You're right. I've honestly never thought about it that way before. Then again, I used to have a friend with whom I immersed myself in the Goth scene. Maybe I should elaborate; she said she was "going Goth" in an instant message, and asked if I wanted to join. I agreed, although, at first, we were immersed, almost by accident seemingly, into the mainstream. We were babybats in the utmost sense of the word; eventually, we did our own research, and found out that what we were following was not a Goth scene at all. Even so, I found a sort of new conviction in it; a new, more invigorated sense of self, if you will. At first, I felt completely duped, but I liked the idea of a uniting idea in music and fashion. Put simply, even though I didn't follow the subculture correctly at first, I felt comfortable in my own skin, and that's something I would never have wanted to give up. If it meant changing my music tastes just to maintain that comfort level, I would do it in a heartbeat. And I found new solace in the music, and what is actually Goth. My friend, on the other hand, stayed with her old musical tastes, and decided she was comfortable with herself.

There lies a level of comfort, I think, if one can stay with what is mainstream. I don't always agree with the concept that it is a fad. I used to make feeble attempts at dressing the part of a Goth, which others in my school picked up on. Now that I've changed, so to speak, I don't try to discourage it. I'll just accept it for what it is. As you phrased so eloquently, baby bats are a necessary evil.

Yes, I also started out as a baby bat, then found out the error of my ways and got into batcave music, which I turned out to love 100 times more. I also didn't feel comfortable dressing "goth" but looking like everyone else, until I discovered DiY. So yeah, it's a journey of enlightenment to some.

[psyches_reflection]

I notice you've both claimed to have gone through a baby bat stage before becoming truly Goth - I don't judge, of course, because I am still going through it. I think anyone who has become interested in Goth after the Batcave period, the younger generation, has to go through that stage. Unless they have an elder Goth who can inform them of the history and nature of Goth, then they are lost in a very confusing wilderness; how are they to know what is Goth and what is a shabby imitation? Perhaps they see something they wish to emulate, for whatever reason, and don't know how to progress.

I think it is important to differentiate between those baby bats who are, and will always be, baby bats: interested only in the surface appearance and horrible poseur bands; and those who will eventually move on to 'greater and better things'. I have an incredibly mature cousin who considers herself to be a baby bat while all others around her are assured of their Gothness. They are convinced that the bands they listen to are the be-all-and-end-all, while my cousin, at the tender age of 12, calls herself a Goth-in-training, knowing that she has more to learn and discover before she can, if at all, call herself truly Goth.

I'm waffling a bit. But the point is, I believe we are too hard on those who are new to the scene and it's rich history. A sacred few of those you regard as being evil and detrimental will eventually become the lifeblood of the scene's future.

[heretoday_gonetomorrow]

^_^ I adore this post. It's so nice to know that the authorities on this board of "all that is goth" were once baby bats. ; ) We baby bats may annoy you at times, but it's nice you've remembered that we're necessary.

[HumanePain]

So, having been there (the babybat phase), we elders feel justified at times to become righteously indignant when we come across a babybat who, instead of seeking a mentor or "enlightenment" as Drac so succinctly put it, demonstrates rebellion against the Goth community and resistance to learning. THOSE are the babybat terrors that we loathe and flame to barbecue crispness for crunching on (with catsup).

But those who are willing to learn and advance, are welcome, AND if fortunate enough (like me) to find those like Draconysius, Haunted and Jillian, as well as Vyvyan to mentor them, then they do evolve into Trad Goths or "True" Goths (not necessarily Elder Goths, that title should be reserved for those of genuine Batcave vintage. I am not referring to mere post count in this website).

[Haunted House]

I never really thought about it like that either. Thats a good way of looking at it. I remember my baby bat days. I sorta eased into being a baby bat with the help of my brother who was in the same boat. I knew, somehow that what I was wasn't goth. I didn't even know what goth was (exept a word). This was around 8th grade for me. At this time I got together with a girl (Underwater Ophelia). As our relationship progressed, we shared things with eachother, including music. Thats where Bauhaus came in. I was a bit if-y at first to be honest but I started listening to the AOL radio Goth Station. The music played there was newer, but it caught my attention and sorta left me hanging and ready for more. I did my own research and began listening to more and more. It just so happens that the older stuff hoisted me up and kept me in a place that I loved.
In any case, I've tryed to educate a few baby bats on what goth music really is and it actually worked in a few cases. I was never able to turn a baby bat into a goth (nor was I trying to) but I've help what little I was able to educate see what the music that was actually called 'Gothic' really was. Some understood, some fought with me about how nothing I said was right. I have a feeling that the understanding ones have a better chance of getting into the good stuff.

[Draconysius]

I'm glad you're all taking this so well.
I also agree with Psyches on there needing to be two terms for two different types of baby bats, because those willing to learn deserve respect over those not willing. Perhaps then, baby bat should become the positive term, and spooky kid should become the negative one, since it is in relation to the shock-value aesthetics of Marilyn Manson.

[Clockwork]

That is a very good point, Draconysius; actually, I've thought the same thing, but never truly elaborated on it. Baby bats do serve to keep what is really Goth underground, as it should be, as well as weeding out those who have the potential to be a true goth from the ignorant masses that would seek only the (false) surface appeal. And the ones that surpass the baby bat phase, I think, are the ones that are unassuming and modest; the ones that accept that they have much to learn about the subculture, and strive toward this goal. Then you have the Lost Souls that Humane described...

As a baby bat, I approached Goth rather cautiously. It was the dark and romantic aspects that always attracted me as opposed to the shock value, chains and blood, or whatever it is that is propagated amongst Hot Topic and mallgoths - and I was fortunate not to get caught up in that crowd and become mislead. I'm still modest though; I don't want to call myself a goth, because I didn't originate from the Batcave era, and I know there's always more bands to discover. It's only if I reflect on myself from a removed standpoint that I might decide I'm more than I consider myself to be.

But enough about me. I'm wondering -

If one encounters a baby bat, should s/he try enlightening him or her? I normally don't bother to because that seems pompous to me, and of the people I've seen, I haven't spied any redeeming qualities; that is, I could expect disinterest or rebellion on their part, and it'd all be a waste of time. However, there is one lad that I believe would turn out alright, if I give him a little guidance. What do you guys think on the issue?

[DarkGentleman]

Going through my babybat days in the 80's wasn't so bad either. I was confused in some ways about goth back then, first I thought it was something like punk or some obsession with vampirisim. As I listened to all the bands back then, it became clear to what goth was about.
Somehow I became attracted to the (like Clockwork mentioned) "dark and romantic" part of the fashion as well, but it wasn't easy coming up with my own individual style without getting flamed by other goths. I experimented with the skater/punk/goth look combined and it became quite acceptable among them as they saw the creativity I brought on as my own.
There is a difference between me and the babybat mall-goths now, is that I created my own style to be myself and the mall-goths went to Hot Topic to be someone else.
I agree with Haunted, I too believe if the babybats see more of what goth is truly about, then perhaps they will become more "traditional" and we can passed the torch to them.

Over the years, I still research on the goth subculture and seeing how it evolved within the areas of music, fashion, and etc.. It's amazing to see how the extreme level of creativity had come to make goth a lifestyle and not a fad.

When I was with my ex-common-law, who was into vampires alot, I give credit for some more dark and romantic ideas she shared with me. She also thought that goth was about vampirisim and still does. sheesh. No sense trying to educate her on that one.

Originally Posted by psyches_reflection

I notice you've both claimed to have gone through a baby bat stage before becoming truly Goth - I don't judge, of course, because I am still going through it. I think anyone who has become interested in Goth after the Batcave period, the younger generation, has to go through that stage.

Here's a link that may help you with a little history on the Batcave period: http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/batcave.htm

Originally Posted by psyches_reflection

I think it is important to differentiate between those baby bats who are, and will always be, baby bats: interested only in the surface appearance and horrible poseur bands; and those who will eventually move on to 'greater and better things'. I have an incredibly mature cousin who considers herself to be a baby bat while all others around her are assured of their Gothness. They are convinced that the bands they listen to are the be-all-and-end-all, while my cousin, at the tender age of 12, calls herself a Goth-in-training, knowing that she has more to learn and discover before she can, if at all, call herself truly Goth.

The poseur bands blind the babybats from seeing the true face of the goth subculture.

"Goth-in-training", that's just too cute.

Originally Posted by HumanePain

But those who are willing to learn and advance, are welcome, AND if fortunate enough (like me) to find those like Draconysius, Haunted and Jillian, as well as Vyvyan to mentor them, then they do evolve into Trad Goths or "True" Goths.

::: on my knees and bowing::: In Gnet, they are GODS! oops, I mean GAWTHS!!

Originally Posted by Draconysius

I still believe bands like H.I.M, My Chem, and A.F.I. are total pigs, but only because they're money-worshipping, lying bastards. They actually know they're not goth; they just lie about it, in a sense, to their audience. In short, they're the man. Nonetheless, I respect anyone's choice to like them or hate them.

Very true they are and I can't stand them either. Recently, I saw on a magazine cover with a quote by Gerard Way "It's ok to die", THAT really hit a effin' nerve, Somehow Gerard Way kinda reminds me of Jim Jones (the sick twat that started a mass suicide cult and killing over 900 people). Who the hell does Gerard think he is anyways?, telling people to commit suicide is totally emo, not goth.

Originally Posted by Draconysius

I'm glad you're all taking this so well.
I also agree with Psyches on there needing to be two terms for two different types of baby bats, because those willing to learn deserve respect over those not willing. Perhaps then, baby bat should become the positive term, and spooky kid should become the negative one, since it is in relation to the shock-value aesthetics of Marilyn Manson.

Just last week I also had a babybat asking me what is the best goth music to listen to, so I wrote down all the "old school" to the recent ones and she thanked me for sharing that with her. She asked me because she thinks I am a true goth, I told her "No, my dear, I lived through the goth lifestyle for a long time, that's all.". That babybat has my respect for sure.

I guess it's a win/lose situation when it comes to the babybats, but the positive ones will always win over the spooky kids.

[Draconysius]

We should try exposing the baby bats to real goth, but in a way that isn't aggressive. The easiest, most passive way is to wear band shirts/patches of true goth bands and therefore spark interest in them.

When a baby bat mislabels a goth band, I believe you have the right to say "they're not goth" and laugh. But if they don't show interest in your ideals, don't continue the argument because it won't go anywhere.
That's the way I see it.

[Draconysius]

Originally Posted by DarkGentleman

telling people to commit suicide is totally emo, not goth.

That's a stereotype. Keep in mind that people living outside a subculture will never understand it; only scratch its surface.

Look up "emotive hardcore".

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by Draconysius

That's a stereotype. Keep in mind that people living outside a subculture will never understand it; only scratch its surface.

Look up "emotive hardcore".

Right, more like "spooky kid" than true emo.

[PinstripesAndPithHelmets]

Originally Posted by DarkGentleman

The poseur bands blind the babybats from seeing the true face of the goth subculture.

What, exactly, is the true face of goth? Throughout this and other posts I've yet to see anyone tell me what "goth" is.

Originally Posted by DarkGentleman

Very true they are and I can't stand them either. Recently, I saw on a magazine cover with a quote by Gerard Way "It's ok to die", THAT really hit a effin' nerve

Well, I certainly hope it is, since we've all got to do it sometime, Red.

[Draconysius]

Originally Posted by PinstripesAndPithHelmets

What, exactly, is the true face of goth? Throughout this and other posts I've yet to see anyone tell me what "goth" is.

*sigh* I can't believe you haven't seen the thousands of threads here based on it.

Goth is a subculture formed and centered on its music (that music being old-school gothic rock and darkwave). There's also a certain mindset that's required for truly appreciating the dark and romantic side of life. That's as loose a definition as it gets.

[Vyvian Blackthorne]

Good goth...I must say I agree that there are two kinds of babybats. Look at the kids you see in Hot Topic (walked in there Yesterday and surprsingly still have some neato sp00ky stuff) who buy MCR, Good Charlotte, and MM Shirts. Are they willing to learn? I don't think so. But can they help it? I'm not sure.
Guess it's the media I must blame for our subcultures' explotation. On one end I like seeing our culture on TV-but this spotlight is not really goth. It's My Chem pop-punk and the Used. None of that stuff is gothic. But the kids who are fooled into it can like but, the only problem is that they call it goth rock. Which pisses us all off.
Goth Forever
Goth Forever
Goth Forever

[PinstripesAndPithHelmets]

That's my point, drac. There are thousands of threads about it, all claiming with equal vehemence that the definition held within is the one, true GOTH. This is no different than Lutherans, Catholics, Mennonites, etc. claiming that they have the answer, and that theirs is the one true FAITH. Maybe we should lay off defining what we think "goth" should be and just enjoy each other's company.

[psyches_reflection]

Thank you for the link, Dark Gentleman *tips an imaginary hat* I knew a little bit about the Batcave already, but not much. The individual accounts paint a very interesting picture!

[Draconysius]

Originally Posted by PinstripesAndPithHelmets

That's my point, drac. There are thousands of threads about it, all claiming with equal vehemence that the definition held within is the one, true GOTH. This is no different than Lutherans, Catholics, Mennonites, etc. claiming that they have the answer, and that theirs is the one true FAITH. Maybe we should lay off defining what we think "goth" should be and just enjoy each other's company.

That's a different matter entirely. The difference between religious right and subcultural right is that subcultures have a proven history and also people still living today, that were around when goth was first formed. Religion has neither proof or survivors.

I received my definition of goth by scientific theory. If at first it was a subculture of dark, romantic individuals who loved post-punk music, then it probably still is.

The matter is, if we don't continue to carry the torch of the past, goth will become the absolute opposite of what it was set out to be: a community of artistic, intelligent, dark-minded music lovers. It'll turn into a Satan-worshiping, heavy-metal-centered, culture of teenage faux-rebels that only want to shock their parents.

[Methadrine]

Originally Posted by Draconysius

It'll turn into a Satan-worshiping, heavy-metal-centered, culture of teenage faux-rebels that only want to shock their parents.

Not to break the spell but this is how it's been displayed in the mainstream since.. say year 2000. We may not like it, and we may hate it, but it's a sad fact. I don't think I've seen a "true" goth in real life in at least a decade...

[Draconysius]

Originally Posted by Methadrine

Not to break the spell but this is how it's been displayed in the mainstream since.. say year 2000. We may not like it, and we may hate it, but it's a sad fact. I don't think I've seen a "true" goth in real life in at least a decade...

I said goth is still not like that. I didn't say it wasn't being portrayed like that.
And of course it's going to be hard to find true goths in real life. Nonetheless, it's better than it becoming "scene" and every Hot Topic kid getting a deathhawk. I've found two goths that live nearby in the last few months. Maybe you should look in different places.

[PinstripesAndPithHelmets]

Originally Posted by Draconysius

That's a different matter entirely. The difference between religious right and subcultural right is that subcultures have a proven history and also people still living today, that were around when goth was first formed. Religion has neither proof or survivors.

So what happens when all the original goths die off? Does your trump card die with them?

There's no difference at all. How do you think religions come about? A group of people pass on their ideals to younger generations in the hope that the new blood will adhere to the old principles.

Originally Posted by Draconysius

I received my definition of goth by scientific theory. If at first it was a subculture of dark, romantic individuals who loved post-punk music, then it probably still is.

How is that scientific in the least? What theory are you using? Can you replicate any of that in a laboratory environment?

"One part romance mixed with three parts black lace... carry the three... makes... trinitrotoluene? Aw, shit, that ain't good."

Originally Posted by Draconysius

The matter is, if we don't continue to carry the torch of the past, goth will become the absolute opposite of what it was set out to be: a community of artistic, intelligent, dark-minded music lovers. It'll turn into a Satan-worshiping, heavy-metal-centered, culture of teenage faux-rebels that only want to shock their parents.

I do agree with this statement. There's nothing wrong with attempting to pass down what you feel to be the proper gothic values to a younger generation. Then again, your values may differ from the values of others, and who's to say you've picked the right one? (is it God or Buddha, Muhummad or Jesus, predestination or active salvation?)

My problem stems from the fact that so much of this whole goddamn forum is devoted to it. Really, wouldn't you be better off proselytizing at your local goth club?

[killer_asian_Dax]

That's a very good perspective that baby bats are a necessary evil. Indeed they are.

I remember when I started acknowledging and embracing my dark side. I hardly then as I hardly do now consider myself "goth," but I do enjoy many of the keystone elements of it. I don't think I was ever a "baby bat" in the sense of listening to the wrong kinds of music and shopping for the dark romantic stuff at hot topic, but I was in the sense that I was very new to the scene itself.


(On a side note- I picked up the latest Gothic Beauty magazine in of all places- hot topic [they've actually got some interesting plugs there] and in the magazine, there is a full 2 page spread on...you guessed it! My Chemical Romance! Now this lead me to ask if people are seriously thinking MCR is goth or if the magazine has lost it's bloody mind...)

Back to the issue at hand... I consider myself lucky to have never been the typical baby bat and that I was pretty dead on about what goth is/looks/sounds like. I live across the street from a high school and so I see it all. Sometimes I see the little fledglings walking home in their black threads and wonder what's on their iPod. Most of the time I just pass it off a they're going through a phase, but I do sometimes wonder if any of them will really make it through their awkward years and discover and become goth.

[Draconysius]

Hey, if you want to turn tail and let them distort history, that's your decision. I'm never going to stop fighting.

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by Draconysius

Hey, if you want to turn tail and let them distort history, that's your decision. I'm never going to stop fighting.

One must select the strategy for "fighting" that suits the audience (or victims...MWUHAHAHA! Ahem. Excuse me.)

For example: With people my own age, if they join me for lunch, I play Christian Death, but I don't TELL them it's Christian Death. They would have a conniption.

I tell them it's Rozz Williams, and play more music, they really get into the eclectic guitar and heavenly voice of Rozz, and then eventually they look at the CD case , and then it's like "Oh, and the band is called "Christian Death".

BUT...in the case of baby bats, it can become a battle, and I find that I must make sure that I have my facts straight, then it can become either a debate, or we have to agree to disagree, but in the latter case, though I may not win the battle, I win respect for gothdom from them, as perhaps they are putting on a facade at the moment, and later that evening they will google Siouxsie or Joy Division or somebody and then persuade themselves. Maybe.