Music evolving through the years

[Draconysius]

The way I see it, musical genres aren't just defined by sounds, they're defined by aesthetics. When you have one but lack the other, it doesn't add up. A flavor-of-the-month teen bubblegum band playing punk chords is still a flavor-of-the-month teen bubblegum band to me. Band like Blink 182 could be less thought of as punk, and thought of moreso as imitation-punk or faux-punk. Semi-authentic tunes, fake attitudes.

[LadyLucretia]

Originally Posted by IsolatedReptile

Alternative also was a phrase started during the late seventies to describe punk. It was an alternative to pop, rock, and r&b.

Where are you getting this information?

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by LadyLucretia

Where are you getting this information?

I actually thought it was pretty common knowledge.

[Linen]

There are so many arguments to be had about every style of music out there. Every generation thinks its music was more talented and more original than the next. Why not just listen to what you like?

[chainsaw13]

Well, Yes. Music usually evolves to popular demand, or under pressure.
Like, how the blues evolved, and Spawned the Birth of Rock N' Roll, Then it just went from there =/

[LadyLucretia]

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

I actually thought it was pretty common knowledge.

The part about alternative existing as a widespread term in the late 70's, particularly to describe punk, doesn't fit with anything I know about music history. But because you, I and Reptile are all too young to actually remember the late 70's, I have to assume the information comes from some source other than personal experience. If it is common knowledge, then why have I never heard this tidbit before despite being an amateur music historian?

[delicti]

Originally Posted by LadyLucretia

I have to assume the information comes from some source other than personal experience. If it is common knowledge, then why have I never heard this tidbit before despite being an amateur music historian?

I have no memory of the word alternative being used until the early 90's, right before grunge came out. Then the word was everywhere. What most people regard as pre-grunge alternative was called Indie, or by other genre names.

I don't know where this information came from, but I can look through all my music mags again, and I'm sure I won't find anything. If Alternative was being used as a name back then, it was definitely not in common use, even in the punk circuits.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by LadyLucretia

The part about alternative existing as a widespread term in the late 70's, particularly to describe punk, doesn't fit with anything I know about music history. But because you, I and Reptile are all too young to actually remember the late 70's, I have to assume the information comes from some source other than personal experience. If it is common knowledge, then why have I never heard this tidbit before despite being an amateur music historian?

I have no idea. It just seems logical to me.

[IsolatedReptile]

I've heard it was referred to as alternative by several websites, magazines, books talking about the offshoots of alternative. The foremost one I can think of is Rip It Up and Start Again. It's about the post punk movement. There's mention of it in there.

I don't think it was a common term, almost like Joy Division wasn't commonly listed as goth until much later.

[LadyStardust]

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

I have no idea. It just seems logical to me.

If you are making a claim about historical facts, what "seems logical" just doesn't cut it. If you think that the term "alternative" was used regularly as early as the 1970s, you should probably try and provide some kind of proof.

[LadyStardust]

While I acknowlege that Wikipedia is far from reliable in and of itself, it does provide a fairly comprehensive "alternative for dummies" sort of article. It also includes a fairly extensive list of actual references. Just look up "alternative rock" on Wikipedia's main site.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by LadyStardust

If you are making a claim about historical facts, what "seems logical" just doesn't cut it. If you think that the term "alternative" was used regularly as early as the 1970s, you should probably try and provide some kind of proof.

I didn't say I thought it was used, I said it SEEMED LOGICAL. Hence my saying that.

[LadyStardust]

My apologies, Underwater Ophelia. I suppose my comment should have been directed primarily at IsolatedReptile rather than yourself.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by LadyStardust

My apologies, Underwater Ophelia. I suppose my comment should have been directed primarily at IsolatedReptile rather than yourself.

Well in that case, he already cited where he got the idea from.

[LadyStardust]

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

Well in that case, he already cited where he got the idea from.

Damn. I had to reread his posts a few times before I caught it. Excuse me while I attempt to extricate my foot from my mouth.

[delicti]

Originally Posted by IsolatedReptile

I've heard it was referred to as alternative by several websites, magazines, books talking about the offshoots of alternative. The foremost one I can think of is Rip It Up and Start Again. It's about the post punk movement. There's mention of it in there.

That is a good book, what pages are you referring too? I took a quick scan-through, as I didn't remember it being used in that context. It doesn't appear in the index either, so if you can point me in a direction, I'd be appreciative.

I've got a decent collection of weeklys and fanzines, and I don't remember it in there either. I think you might be reading into the words too much.

[Godslayer Jillian]

I would agree that most music can be formulated and created, but not when we're talking about punk.
Even gothic songs could be formulated, just look at Voodoo Church (which is a good band nonetheless). You take a theme out of a B-movie, and either sing happily about it (Specimen-type) or sadly about it (The Cure-type) and it would fool more than half of us, passing as a genuine gothic song.
But punk attitude is different than that. It's more of 'you have something to say? Grab a guitar and start saying it!'
It had nothing to do with meter and riffs; it had everything to do with expression and meaning.

[LadyStardust]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

But punk attitude is different than that. It's more of 'you have something to say? Grab a guitar and start saying it!'
It had nothing to do with meter and riffs; it had everything to do with expression and meaning.

Exactly what I was saying, only put much more eloquently. Punk IS the attitude, so by acknowledging that the punk attitude is dead, you are forced to acknowledge that punk ITSELF has bought the farm.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Punk is not death until the last punk dies.

[LadyStardust]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

Punk is not death until the last punk dies.

Hhhmmm . . . that is a good point. Musically though, must he die or simply stop making music?

[MIRON]

Originally Posted by LadyStardust

Exactly what I was saying, only put much more eloquently. Punk IS the attitude, so by acknowledging that the punk attitude is dead, you are forced to acknowledge that punk ITSELF has bought the farm.

Punks have been saying punk is dead evey year since 1977.

[MIRON]

I looked thrrough a stack of zines from the 70's and 80's and didn't find one refered to as "alternative", not even in ALTERNATIVE PRESS.

[IsolatedReptile]

Originally Posted by MIRON

I looked thrrough a stack of zines from the 70's and 80's and didn't find one refered to as "alternative", not even in ALTERNATIVE PRESS.

Maybe this is me reading too much into this as well, but... Alternative Press...

I don't have access to the book right now, and it's very possible I did read to much into it. I do know that I read that it was referred to as alternative in the late seventies/early eighties a couple of times, so I'll just have to look through my magazines an books and see where it is.

[Stormtrooper of Death]

I have to thank you people for being correct about punk rock. I've been listening to real punk for about 7 years since I was 11. It makes me sick to see kids with t-shirts and stuff with a band and know nothing about the band or the music behind them. In my opinion punk is not dead, it is just underground. There are a handful of real punk bands left today. Not this pop crap like Blink 182 or Green Day. But as regard to today's music scene it is just a fad like all styles of music that happened and it too shall pass and something else will replace it.

[delicti]

Originally Posted by IsolatedReptile

Maybe this is me reading too much into this as well, but... Alternative Press...

I think what you're forgetting is that before the term "Alternative" was used to describe a genre music (or moreso, to destroy multiple genres), it would have had its more conventional meaning. Hence, "Alternative Press" would have meant "press that is an alternative to the mainstream" and not "press about Alternative music."

It's much like the music industry's recent use of the term "Indie." Indie used to mean a band that was on an independent label - now it means a band of a specific style. Think about this - in five years (or less), you will be meeting people who have never thought of "Indie" as something that came from an independent label. Some of them will even tell you you're wrong if you tell them that formalizing the term "Indie" as a genre was just another attempt by the major labels to kill off independent music.

There is a rich history of the music industry deliberately obfuscating and otherwise eliminating competing music through unscrupulous methods. Unfortunately, it's still up to those of us still in the underground to set the record straight, since there doesn't seem to be anyone else willing to do it.

(And thanks for double-checking Miron; I know it's impossible to have everything, so hopefully between the two of us we have a substantial enough amount ;-)