Free will

Reikikuro · 09-10-2007, 08:54 AM

A professor of Philosophy comes in to my restaurant every day. Today he asked me a good question. "Do people really have free will?" I discussed it with him for a short while and I was curious about other people's opinions. What do you have to say about it.

Drake Dun · 09-10-2007, 09:23 AM

Tell him he needs to ask a coherent question before he can expect a meaningful answer.

Drake

Reikikuro · 09-10-2007, 02:49 PM

It's a very deep question. In psychology there is a view on development called behavioralism. Where you are nothing but a product of your environment. everything you do is based on how your begining area raised you to do things. Is that free will or are you just a mass of social complexes from your parents and is your thought nothing more than what everything around you as a child caused you to be.

Graveyard.Crow · 09-10-2007, 03:56 PM

To act according to how you were raised is a choice, there for you freely willed yourself to act like that. You may choose to stop and act differently at any moment. So yes, we do have free will.

Renatus · 09-10-2007, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graveyard.Crow

To act according to how you were raised is a choice, there for you freely willed yourself to act like that. You may choose to stop and act differently at any moment. So yes, we do have free will.

Ah but how do you know that choice wasn't brought on by external influences.

Rae Ven Rae · 09-10-2007, 04:07 PM

I've always pondered the concept of free will, especially as defined by religious sects--did you know the concept of "free will" is NOT in the bible at all...

Look it up...

But to me, if you believe in a higher power, like the Christian God, or Allah, man has no free will, for the superior being is omnipotent.

It's like Jonah, who "decides" not to do God's will. God has him swallowed by a large fish (Leviathan--not a whale) and desposited on the land he was supposed to go an warn of God's coming judgment and wrath.

Jonah made a choice, but in the end, it was usurped by God.

It's like people who are religious who complain about gays and abortion and such --I say they are being blasphemous, because, in reality, if they exist--they exist because God allowed them to--I mean, either God is omnipotent or he is not, there is no in between.

I personally believe that if we are created, it was by a being who doesn't care what we do, and may be amused by all the silly goings on on this planet --

Man has some free will, but it is limited, thereby it is truly limited will.

Example--I can't go into a store and just take a five thousand dollar coat and not pay for it even if I wanted to -- I would be arrested.

However, I am free in some aspects, to make choices on who I love, where I live, work, etc.,

So I suppose, in the end I believe in limited, not free, will,

My two cents anyway...

Graveyard.Crow · 09-10-2007, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renatus

Ah but how do you know that choice wasn't brought on by external influences.

The external influences are suggestions, free will is to accept them or leave them.

Rae Ven Rae · 09-10-2007, 04:11 PM

Unless you believe in the structured, religious concepts of free will, which is not free will at all...

Graveyard.Crow · 09-10-2007, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rae Ven Rae

Unless you believe in the structured, religious concepts of free will, which is not free will at all...

That's more force
I was talking about influences, like your upbringing, not the promise to go to hell if you decline the existence of god (for example)

bleedingheart344 · 09-10-2007, 04:18 PM

Yes, but if you accept them, it goes right back to it not being free will. It gives you suggestions, which is implying that you must choose something. Who's to say that you're not just choosing the best one instead of one that truly speaks to you. There are way too many outside influences for one to have their own free will.

Rae Ven Rae · 09-10-2007, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graveyard.Crow

That's more force
I was talking about influences, like your upbringing, not the promise to go to hell if you decline the existence of god (for example)

I can see what your are saying here--but I think there are too many societal pressures in relation to our behavior that don't allow for true free will--like getting arrested for unlawful acts...

Now, existentialism would have us believe that free will is absolute, one would just have to accept the consequences of their actions--are you saying this, or simply one can choose not to be the product of influences???

bleedingheart344 · 09-10-2007, 04:25 PM

Well, it's impossible for one to not be subject to influence. I say this because people can even be influenced in the unconcious mind. No matter how hard one may try, life is all about following influences. It helps to guide people. If free will existed, there would be no structure to things. Things would fall into utter chaos if people could just go off and do whatever they wanted to do. And yes, I know that my thinking is a tad off of what the ideal definition of "free will" is, but I find it's still applicable.

Graveyard.Crow · 09-10-2007, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rae Ven Rae

I can see what your are saying here--but I think there are too many societal pressures in relation to our behavior that don't allow for true free will--like getting arrested for unlawful acts...

Now, existentialism would have us believe that free will is absolute, one would just have to accept the consequences of their actions--are you saying this, or simply one can choose not to be the product of influences???

Well ones again, the law is a force and that's something we can't escape. But for example of you were raised Jewish, no one is going to arrest you for choosing your faith. I suppose free will is a complicated thing. I mean you still CAN do something even though you have a chance of getting arrested, it's just a matter of weather or not you like the consequences.

Renatus · 09-10-2007, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graveyard.Crow

The external influences are suggestions, free will is to accept them or leave them.

Yes but how do you know the ultimate choice you make if you were to accept the suggestion or not is not influenced by external influences.

Rae Ven Rae · 09-10-2007, 04:29 PM

Valid point, but I do think , like say, while a person can choose to be Jewish, they have to exist within the laws of Judism (sp) to be a practicing Jew, therefore, they have chosen a faith but within that faith, they have a "limited will"...

Graveyard.Crow · 09-10-2007, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renatus

Yes but how do you know the ultimate choice you make if you were to accept the suggestion or not is not influenced by external influences.

Because you have free will....

Graveyard.Crow · 09-10-2007, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rae Ven Rae

Valid point, but I do think , like say, while a person can choose to be Jewish, they have to exist within the laws of Judism (sp) to be a practicing Jew, therefore, they have chosen a faith but within that faith, they have a "limited will"...

I suppose
But it's like this.
I'm Pagan, I chose it because all the "rules" are things I was already doing to begin with, so they don't feel like rules at all. I don't know if it's the same for everyone, but that's how It seems it should be.

Rae Ven Rae · 09-10-2007, 04:40 PM

I see what you are saying--if one has a choice, but the path they have chosen has rules, if the rules speak to them, then they are not like rules, and a person is still operating under the premise of free will...

Good argument...

I do not wholly agree, but it is a good argument...

Graveyard.Crow · 09-10-2007, 04:45 PM

Hehehe well I'm going to be a smart ass and say, to not fully agree is a choice of free will. But thank you very much XD

Rae Ven Rae · 09-10-2007, 04:47 PM

ROFLMAO..one could see it that way....

Clockwork · 09-10-2007, 05:05 PM

So strange that you should make a thread of this; I've been pondering the very thing to myself for the past few days. I'm even kind of miffed that you made this before me =/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reikikuro

It's a very deep question. In psychology there is a view on development called behavioralism. Where you are nothing but a product of your environment.

That's behaviorism, and it doesn't eliminate 'free will,' but merely attempts to explain why organisms behave the way they do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graveyard.Crow

The external influences are suggestions, free will is to accept them or leave them.

Not really. Based on the influences and how they appeal directly to you, also considering how they compare to any other possible course of action, they alone decide how you react.

Personally, I kind of favor Incompatibilism, the argument that free will is only a false perception. Maybe simply because it entertains me to look at things that way. However, I think the truth is really a shade of gray, and not completely one way or the other.

Clockwork · 09-10-2007, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graveyard.Crow

Well ones again, the law is a force and that's something we can't escape. But for example of you were raised Jewish, no one is going to arrest you for choosing your faith. I suppose free will is a complicated thing. I mean you still CAN do something even though you have a chance of getting arrested, it's just a matter of weather or not you like the consequences.

Government laws don't have much to do with the question of free will. Being arrested for breaking a law is a simple case of cause and effect, such as being relieved after taking a piss.

However, a person's will is also a case of cause and effect, because for EVERY choice you make, there is a reason you decided to make it.

Godslayer Jillian · 09-10-2007, 05:39 PM

I believe Monty Python got it right on this one. They just mentioned the soul instead of free will.
They said the soul isn't just there ex nihilo, but can only be created through a process of self-observation. Most people in today's life, unfortunately, cannot achieve this, as they are easily distracted with the trivialities of life.
Can you see how this relates to Sartre's belief that we are doomed to be free?

Methadrine · 09-10-2007, 05:44 PM

A free will? ofcourse.

I see it like this: If I have an apple on a table and I want to take the apple, I do it. Now, I did want to take it so I took it and even if it was something that made me take it,be it a divine intervention or something like a laid-out plan in advance which I have absolutely no control over, it doesn't matter. I percieved it as if it was me that decided that I wanted to take the apple, and it is the only thing that matters. What we percieve.

so.. once again, do we have a free will? Yes. In the reality we sense and act accordingly to, we have. No parental raising or government interference made me take the apple.

Clockwork · 09-10-2007, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

I believe Monty Python got it right on this one. They just mentioned the soul instead of free will.
They said the soul isn't just there ex nihilo, but can only be created through a process of self-observation. Most people in today's life, unfortunately, cannot achieve this, as they are easily distracted with the trivialities of life.
Can you see how this relates to Sartre's belief that we are doomed to be free?

What do you mean when you say soul? It seems as if you don't mean that ethereal stuff that is supposed to inhabit a body.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Methadrine

I percieved it as if it was me that decided that I wanted to take the apple, and it is the only thing that matters. What we percieve.

And so you might only think you have free will.
But it only really matters if our bodies aren't being hijacked anyway, right?