We will never forget...

[LadyLucretia]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

9-11 is no more a somber event than Spring Break.

This statement is in incredibly poor taste, even if you're referring to the attitudes of politicians here. I'm not big on political correctness, but this is one issue where I feel that people should still have some modicum of respect.

[d.Nox]

MaverickZero wrote:

My statement was just this: Until we can go a year without someone saying to another person "remember 9/11" the terrorists are winning.

You argue against "fear-mongering" with the threat that otherwise, the terrorists win?

Really?

[MaverickZero]

You people are proving my point, thats all I need to say.

[Wormboy]

Originally Posted by HumanePain

We will never forget. May God bless America.

... i forgot

You know now when people say do you know what day it is, and I say september 11th, they say, well do you know what that means, and I say yes, it is __ many days until the weekend! I honestly don't care about 9/11. But I do remember when it actually happened, when my friend told me in school that two planes hit the world trade center towers, my response was, "oh that sucks, hey, pass me a donut"

[MaguMan]

Originally Posted by Wormboy

... i forgot

Yeah, it happens. Of course, I'm sure when Humanpain said that, he meant each and every American alive today, including amnesiacs, schizophrenics, folks in comas, hardcore drug addicts, the mentally challenged, hermits, the criminally insane, and who could forget the 20-somethings that spend all day playing video games and smoking weed to the point of pure apathy towards the entire world.

[Wormboy]

Originally Posted by MaguMan

Yeah, it happens. Of course, I'm sure when Humanpain said that, he meant each and every American alive today, including amnesiacs, schizophrenics, folks in comas, hardcore drug addicts, the mentally challenged, hermits, the criminally insane, and who could forget the 20-somethings that spend all day playing video games and smoking weed to the point of pure apathy towards the entire world.

you know the funny thing, im none of those, I really don't play games that much, and i rarely get a chance to smoke weed, i just dont happen to give a shit


How about the people who just don't give a fuck about new york, you forgot our group

[MaguMan]

Originally Posted by Wormboy

you know the funny thing, im none of those, I really don't play games that much, and i rarely get a chance to smoke weed, i just dont happen to give a shit

Huh... I was leaning towards, "Criminally insane."

How about the people who just don't give a fuck about new york, you forgot our group

Yeah, but those folks in that group from the Washington D.C. area or Pennsylvania still give a shit about their own backyards being hit in 9/11.

[Wormboy]

Originally Posted by MaguMan

Huh... I was leaning towards, "Criminally insane."


Yeah, but those folks in that group from the Washington D.C. area or Pennsylvania still give a shit about their own backyards being hit in 9/11.

yup, I don't though

[LadyLucretia]

Originally Posted by Wormboy

I honestly don't care about 9/11. But I do remember when it actually happened, when my friend told me in school that two planes hit the world trade center towers, my response was, "oh that sucks, hey, pass me a donut"

I wonder if you would say this to the face of someone who lost a loved one in 9/11. I guess no one should be forced to care about anything if it doesn't actually affect them, but I'm still somewhat taken aback by how completely self-absorbed a person must be to totally not give a shit about a national tragedy. Clearly you have trouble seeing beyond the end of your own nose, which is going to affect you negatively more than anyone else in the long run, but still...wow. Just wow.

[Corpsey]

He's from Australia... what more did you expect from him?

I get the feeling this will one day turn into a day similar to ANZAC day. It's always good to remember a tragedy to bind people together to remember the past and to try to protect yourself from the future, but as stated by other people, it's purpose is being misused already by fuckheads who hardly consider other people when it comes to their actions. It speaks aplenty for their intentions but everyone ignores it.

So I have this to say: Remember and honor the dead. Prevent the past from happening, but do not idolize the past so much that people can influence you to their gain.

[Wormboy]

Originally Posted by LadyLucretia

I wonder if you would say this to the face of someone who lost a loved one in 9/11. I guess no one should be forced to care about anything if it doesn't actually affect them, but I'm still somewhat taken aback by how completely self-absorbed a person must be to totally not give a shit about a national tragedy. Clearly you have trouble seeing beyond the end of your own nose, which is going to affect you negatively more than anyone else in the long run, but still...wow. Just wow.

I also care deeply about my friends, I can't see past los angeles county =)

and I'm from california i dont know what the bugger below you was talking about

[Corpsey]

Hmmmm, for some reason I was sure I read that you came from Australia..

Anyways, if you're not from Australia then you wouldn't have a clue about what I said anyway, unless you look up ANZAC.

And seeing as you are a Yank and you can't see past Los Angeles cuntree.. Cool. You can live in a close-minded world then.

[Wormboy]

Originally Posted by Corpsey

Hmmmm, for some reason I was sure I read that you came from Australia..

Anyways, if you're not from Australia then you wouldn't have a clue about what I said anyway, unless you look up ANZAC.

And seeing as you are a Yank and you can't see past Los Angeles cuntree.. Cool. You can live in a close-minded world then.

That's the plan

[Godslayer Jillian]

I'd rather have people remember in September 11:
The battle of Brandywine: Americans died for a cause that day.
Gandhi introduces his philosophy on non-violence. (That is much, much more important than the destruction of two towers.)
The American invasion of Honduras.

Locally, on September eleven, two days ago, a girl drowned to death when a shoulder in a transited avenue collapsed on itself and was swallowed by the underground sewers. A man died trying to save her.

There are much better things to commemorate and remember in 9/11.

[Corpsey]

Yeah, indeed. We have had that debate for decades in New Zealand around our honoring the ANZAC's on ANZAC day. The general response to the arguement that it was a good idea to have a day where everyone can gather to remember everyone lost in that cause.

In other words, it's a day where America mourns the death of all the people that were killed that day, but also a chance to mourn all those who died fighting terrorism or whatever cause they decided to pick up since then, seeing as that was the day that set the world off in it's view on anti-terrorism.

Humans are just like that. We mourn the fact that we fucked up in a war long ago and use it as an opportunity to remember everyone who has died fighting overseas for our country. Patrotism does the same thing in the states, so they have their day for it.

Me, I remember September Eleven as the day my grandfather came over to my house and made us all watch the Monty Python marathon that was on, instead of letting us watch all the doom and gloom media reports...

>_>

[Drake Dun]

Originally Posted by Wormboy

I honestly don't care about 9/11. But I do remember when it actually happened, when my friend told me in school that two planes hit the world trade center towers, my response was, "oh that sucks, hey, pass me a donut"

Originally Posted by MaguMan

I'm sure when Humanpain said that, he meant each and every American alive today, including... the 20-somethings that spend all day playing video games and smoking weed to the point of pure apathy towards the entire world.

It doesn't require a naturally hard personality or drug-induced stupor to have that response. I had a similar experience, and I can tell you that it's just from having the give-a-shit half burned out of me by how cruel and idiotic the human race is. Or just the world itself.

Number of Americans killed by terrorists in 2001: about 3000
Number of Americans killed by automobiles in 2001: over 40,000

My September 11 Story

I was walking to my car to go to school when my stepfather intercepted me and told me about the attacks. I mumbled something vaguely respectful like, "Wow, that's horrible", and then continued to my car and drove to school. The first hint I got that something significant had happened was when I walked through the doors into the lobby and nobody was there. It took me a few seconds to figure out what was going on, but then I realized that everybody would be at home in front of their televisions, so I drove to my friends' place.

We all sat around the tube and watched. I felt two things. The first was the same churning revulsion that I feel every time I pick up a newspaper or watch TV news. The second was a detached amazement at how good Hollywood's special effects have gotten. I remember thinking, "This is exactly how it would look if it were in a movie." There wasn't much in the way of horror or sorrow.

It wasn't until years later, when I was watching the same footage alone in my room, that I burst into tears.

After the event, as people began to react, my relative apathy quickly blew over into loathing and anger. The president came on T.V. and blathered the most ridiculous lies I have ever heard mouthed by a public figure. Nobody called him on them. They had attacked our freedom. They envied our sports cars and resented the way our women dressed. They were cowards who lashed out at a symbol of the national prosperity they couldn't share.

Cowards who carefully planned and executed a plot to fly half-way around the world to seize airplanes with miniscule hand weapons so that they sacrifice their own lives in order to take Americans with them. Because they hated freedom.

None of this had anything to do with history, or foreign affairs, of course. It couldn't have anything to do with the endless self-interested meddling of America in the Middle East. The evil terrorists, fresh out of their mass production bad guy mould, just followed a bad action movie script directly into both towers, to the accompaniment of creepy organ music.

It wasn't long before we were hearing about people who weren't even Arabic or Muslim being attacked in the streets. And then there was the depraved attention mongering. It became a badge of honor to have known someone who knew someone who was in the towers - or hey, at least who was in New York that week, and who could have been killed (but unfortunately, wasn't).

The government moved quickly to capitalize on the outrage, taking us first into a war in Afghanistan that was justified rather badly, and then a war in Iraq that wasn't justified at all. The "war on terrorism" became the new blank check for systems of power to expand themselves at will, and anybody who spoke up in dissent would henceforth be labeled "soft on terror" or "anti-American" and quickly marginalized.

This is still going on. Last night I was watching You Tube clips of Ron Paul in the Republican presidential debates (What a guy!). When he stated the painfully obvious truth - that 9/11 was provoked by American foreign policy, he was subjected to purile emotional attacks by Giuliani, to the uproarious applause of the audience. How dare he suggest that there might have been a cause for what is rapidly becoming a world-wide hatred of America?

The Iraqis who were dead because of American foreign policy before 9/11, perhaps two orders of magnitude higher in number than the victims of 9/11, had no comment.

That is the legacy of 9/11. The terrorists have succeeded in making us like them. Rule by authority and fear, and servile obeisance to vacuous shibboleths like "war on terror" and "defending freedom", among which I am sorely tempted to include "We will never forget". Which seems to mean, much like "defending freedom", precisely the opposite of what it says. We promise that we will carefully forget and categorically ignore any and every historical or current fact which might shed light on what happened that day, in favor of self-indulgent moral posturing and renewed bellicosity toward any culture with the misfortune to live where there's oil.

Thus far, most of the times I have heard the little daisy "We will never forget" come out, it has not been in the context of shameless war-mongering emotional blackmail. So I'm not writing it off yet. Personally, I doubt I will ever forget, but that's an observation - not a promise. If you are serious about this little catchphrase the way it is apparently meant, the least I would expect from you is that you face with courageous honesty the facts of the world that we live in.

If you want, you can ask people to "observe a moment of silence" for the victims of 9/11, or something like that, without discussing the broader issues. But when you ask them to etch permanently into their memory the events of that day, you have to understand if they read that as a demand that they take a side. I'm one of the people who hears it that way.

So for the record, my side:

Against the U.S. occupation of Iraq
Against other wars of agression and assorted meddling
Against the rule of fear and power over people at the cost of freedom
Against terrorism directed at random civilians instead of the real cuplrits
Against hateful ethoi like the versions of Islam and Christianity I am familiar with.
For the basic human decency systematically abused by the powerful.

Drake

[Corpsey]

>.<

You depress me, Drake.

Just because more people back you up, doesn't mean that you're correct but you can have the smugness of popular opinion on your side. (In reference to the Republican debates)

This is one of the reasons why I remember watching Monty Python with my grandfather so vividly.

I get what you're saying Drake, but it makes me feel fucking sick of humans.

*Goes to watch something mildly entertaining to cheer up to*

[HumanePain]

I agree Drake, that the President simply took American's lust for revenge after the attacks and parlayed our primal urge to hit back at somebody into the war on Iraq (Afghanistan was justified in my humble opinion), but 9/11 touched me personally so I choose to remember the loss with somber thought:

Cantor-Fitzgerald was a company that occupied the top floors of one of the twin towers. They were a customer of mine that I supported (technical support of their investment data systems). I had been to the twin towers on business before they were destroyed and will always remember the grand and beautiful lobbies.

When the attacks occurred and the buildings caught fire, television captured people that I worked with, people that I knew, jumping out of the windows to their death to escape death by fire. One of them fell on a fireman on the ground and killed him as well from the impact.

Only a handful of people that day remained of the company because they were sick, late or on vacation. The majority of Cantor-Fitzgerald were killed, and the company never recovered after that. There was no company after that, essentially.

The consequence of that day had a very large impact on the IT departments of corporate America (and indeed, companies around the world). Companies learned that they must replicate their databases in geographically separate locations, and replicate some of the data to sparsely populated areas away from population centers. Today there are datacenters in the middle of Iowan cornfields that contain petabytes of credit card and other consumer data.

But to me personally, to see guys like me that were just going to work to support their families, be slaughtered and taken from their families in such a horrific manner is something I cannot forget.

[LadyLucretia]

Originally Posted by HumanePain

But to me personally, to see guys like me that were just going to work to support their families, be slaughtered and taken from their families in such a horrific manner is something I cannot forget.

I really think there is a huge divide between people who in some way witnessed the attacks in person, versus those who saw it on TV.

I remember the summer before the attacks, I volunteered at a day care in downtown Jersey City. A few blocks away was the greatest view of the NYC skyline, and I used to go sit by the PATH station and eat my lunch there. Many days I'd just meditate on the towers and what they represented about NYC - all the people who went there to chase their dreams, those who made it and those who didn't. When those towers fell, it took down more than just steel and concrete for me. And I can only imagine the pain of all the people I know who lost more than just a piece of the skyline that day.

Insensitive shits like Wormboy are entitled to their own short sightedness. But 9/11 was also a chance to see true heroism and humanity, and the days after, people really put shit aside for once. It didn't last long, but it was a reminder that not all people suck all the time. Unfortunately, threads like this one make me really doubt that again.

But thank you for offering your perspective as someone a bit closer to the event.

[MaverickZero]

Like you said, it was a chance to show great heroism and human spirit. Once. Now people are USING it as a badge of honor, for no other reason than to get sympathy, or pity or use it to get money etc. Personally I am skeptical of the whole basis of the attacks. Despite whomever did it, it is a great tragedy. However, I think it is being used way too much as a "Hey, you problems mean nothing, I have 9/11".

People weigh problems when they really shouldn't. I could be affected by someone running over the neighbors dog, but you won't see me going to court to sue the ass of the maker of the car.

[LadyLucretia]

Originally Posted by MaverickZero

However, I think it is being used way too much as a "Hey, you problems mean nothing, I have 9/11".

People weigh problems when they really shouldn't. I could be affected by someone running over the neighbors dog, but you won't see me going to court to sue the ass of the maker of the car.

Who do you see doing this?

[MaguMan]

Originally Posted by Drake Dun

It doesn't require a naturally hard personality or drug-induced stupor to have that response.

Naturally, but at the same time, it's obvious HumanPain wasn't meaning everyone with the proverbial, "We."

Number of Americans killed by terrorists in 2001: about 3000
Number of Americans killed by automobiles in 2001: over 40,000

Now how many of those 40,000 inevitable deaths occurred in a single day? Take that number and let's narrow down how many were all related. Got that number? OK, now how many were related to an attack on the American way of life? I'm foreseeing a small number that doesn't quite trump the 9/11 figure or impress the statistical negation by relation mentality.

[MaverickZero]

American way of life, thats a joke. It's that cockyness thats being attacked. If Americans and Capitalist nations weren't so smug and thinking they are the top of the food chain, minimalist and extremest countries wouldn't tack them the highest target on the list.

How do you get recognition? Attack the Alpha Dog. Period. It's not some grudge people have on for Amercians, its Capitalism. They see they can be brought up to World Leader status by attacking a major military power, and they did it. Now you can't walk down the street without seeing Terrorism, Iraq, Osama Bin Laden on a newspaper. Got his point across didn't he?

[LadyLucretia]

Originally Posted by MaverickZero

American way of life, thats a joke. It's that cockyness thats being attacked. If Americans and Capitalist nations weren't so smug and thinking they are the top of the food chain, minimalist and extremest countries wouldn't tack them the highest target on the list.

So then industrialized, modern countries should suppress their nationalism for fear of pissing off terrorists? I'm not advocating arrogance, only saying that no matter how "humble" the US acts, we still grant rights to women, have legal divorce, allow the sale of alcohol, and dozens of other things that extremist Islam will still hate us for.

They see they can be brought up to World Leader status by attacking a major military power, and they did it. Now you can't walk down the street without seeing Terrorism, Iraq, Osama Bin Laden on a newspaper. Got his point across didn't he?

Media coverage does not equal political influence.

The only point Osama Bin Laden made was that there are still plenty of nutjobs in the world.

[MaguMan]

Originally Posted by MaverickZero

American way of life, thats a joke. It's that cockyness thats being attacked. If Americans and Capitalist nations weren't so smug and thinking they are the top of the food chain, minimalist and extremest countries wouldn't tack them the highest target on the list.

Ehhh... our way of life is shaped by our Constitution. American society and everyday life would not be what it is without it. It's the basis for how things work here, just as the Iranian Constitution is the basis for how life is there. If you regard it as cockiness, then you're under the impression we have it better, because I certainly didn't hold it above anyone.

It's not some grudge people have on for Amercians, its Capitalism. They see they can be brought up to World Leader status by attacking a major military power, and they did it. Now you can't walk down the street without seeing Terrorism, Iraq, Osama Bin Laden on a newspaper. Got his point across didn't he?

Is that his point or your's? His point has been made clear numerous times since 9/11, but didn't really have much to do with Capitalism. He ranted about that here in the most recent video, but prior, it had absolutely nothing to do with that. It's not like Osama Bin Laden is some Marxist or Socialist for Christ's sake.