Animal Cruelty or Just Fun?

[Rae Ven Rae]

Deer -- cute things but mean--and venison is so nasty--very gamey...

[emma o]

Abusing animals in any sort of way is unethical and just simply wrong. People are using animals as entertainment, food, clothing and so on. It's like an endless holocaust for those who cannot stand up for their rights just because man is in more powerful position. We _must_ take action and end the madness. Your everyday habits affect more than you may think. If you eat meat, you support suffering. If you wear fur, you support suffering. If you drink milk, you support suffering. I could go on and on listing things.
It's so sad when people are saying yeah it's wrong and horrible what we do to animals, and at the same time cook some innocent chicken for dinner and wear woollen socks. But good news people, here's what you CAN do for the sake of the animals:
-GO VEGAN-
You can make a huge difference.

[Wormboy]

Yet it isn't sad when animals eat other animals, do you recomend they go vegan too? Humans ARE animals, animals eat animals, that's not cruel, that is nature. I do agree we should not abuse animals, but eating them is totally different, and I'll die before I give up my leather!


Bottom line, abusing animals is wrong, eating them is part of nature.

[MaverickZero]

I believe the one thing we've done wrong in our culture is raise domestic animals as companions. We've grown attached to the thought that an animal we used to hunt for food and sustinance is now some sacred being that deserves rights as we do... I'm not saying I hate animals, but I really do find animal activists really funny. If it wasn't for your ancestors slaughtering tiny animals to eat, and produce more offspring, you wouldn't be here right now.

And I don't care what anyone says about veganism. I look at it the same way I look at Religion and Sexuality. You do it, thats fine by me. Don't press it on me, cause I do things my own way.

Animals are wild. More than likely, given the chance and if they needed to survive, they would kill and eat you without thinking. So preserve humanity, and eat a cow.

[Wormboy]

Originally Posted by MaverickZero

I believe the one thing we've done wrong in our culture is raise domestic animals as companions. We've grown attached to the thought that an animal we used to hunt for food and sustinance is now some sacred being that deserves rights as we do... I'm not saying I hate animals, but I really do find animal activists really funny. If it wasn't for your ancestors slaughtering tiny animals to eat, and produce more offspring, you wouldn't be here right now.

And I don't care what anyone says about veganism. I look at it the same way I look at Religion and Sexuality. You do it, thats fine by me. Don't press it on me, cause I do things my own way.

Animals are wild. More than likely, given the chance and if they needed to survive, they would kill and eat you without thinking. So preserve humanity, and eat a cow.

I love you

[emma o]

Originally Posted by Wormboy

Yet it isn't sad when animals eat other animals, do you recomend they go vegan too? Humans ARE animals, animals eat animals, that's not cruel, that is nature. I do agree we should not abuse animals, but eating them is totally different, and I'll die before I give up my leather!


Bottom line, abusing animals is wrong, eating them is part of nature.

Other animals don't capture and torture other species. We humans are animals yes, but we can live without for example meat just fine. Meat is unhealthy. Factory farming is where you get your bloody steaks, and that is abusing animals, don't you agree?
And to you MaverickZero, being vegan and animal-friendly has nothing to do with religions. Do you accept rasism? If not, you shouldn't accept speciesism.

Why killing people is bad if killing animals isn't?

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by MaverickZero

I believe the one thing we've done wrong in our culture is raise domestic animals as companions. We've grown attached to the thought that an animal we used to hunt for food and sustinance is now some sacred being that deserves rights as we do... I'm not saying I hate animals, but I really do find animal activists really funny. If it wasn't for your ancestors slaughtering tiny animals to eat, and produce more offspring, you wouldn't be here right now.

I couldn't disagree more.

Animals were domesticated to serve us. Dogs helped in hunting, cats killed vermin. Raising them as companions was part of the domestication process - otherwise they would have stayed wild. We became so attached to them because it's our nature to do so. They become attached to us, too, and to each other - give a kitten to an orangutan and they'll likely form a 'friendship'. This may not occur in their natural habitats in quite the same way, but symbiotic relationships do exist. Animals will help one another if it doesn't compromise their own survival.

Yes, our ancestors used protein derived from meat to build up their huge brains, but guess what - we have those brains now, and they're not getting any larger (it's the thought of many that we've reached the limit of our evolution). Meat is no longer necessary in our diets, and the factory farms of the present are quite a far leap from the occasional hunting the early hominids took part in.

Originally Posted by MaverickZero

Animals are wild. More than likely, given the chance and if they needed to survive, they would kill and eat you without thinking.

Wrong.

The only species that would willingly stalk, kill and devour a human is the polar bear - and food is hard to come by in the Arctic. Lions, tigers, crocodiles and bears will ignore you above all else, and only attack when provoked or fooled into thinking you're food (hunters are the most common victims of attacks). Even then the chances of them eating you are slim - most will abandon your bloody corpse for some far more appetising venison or antelope. When kept in captivity they have been known to attack unprovoked, but that's the result of deeply ingrained instincts to hunt - if they can't hunt their usual prey they'll switch to something else for the sake of survival.

Also in terms of the topic of the actual thread, the use of bears as entertainment like that isn't a matter of culture but education. Show people how interesting animals are, and how much they can feel, and soon such 'traditions' die out.

[MaverickZero]

I guess you've never seen Hannibal... starve pigs long enough and they'll devour an entire human body.

It comes down to survival. Our bodies need protein, bottom line. We weren't designed to eat veggies and swallow rocks, or else that's what we'd be doing. If it weren't for us breeding animals to use for food, they would be long extinct by now anyways.

So before you animal activists go throwing around insults and spraypainting fur coats, please take a moment to actually think logically.

I haven't seen a "healthy" looking vegetarian in my life. As for tofu and those suppliments, don't bother with excuses. If you were in the wild you'd have been dead long ago. Eaten by wolves, cyotes or picked apart by buzzards.

And please don't give me the "Humans are the only beings that torture animals" bit either. Ever seen Discovery Channel? See how the cats bring down their prey, and let it bleed to death?

They have no remourse. They do it to survive. As do we. Also, like one of my favorite comedians put it, once the cows are gone, we're gonna have to find a new vegetarian to go after.

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by MaverickZero

I guess you've never seen Hannibal... starve pigs long enough and they'll devour an entire human body.

I have seen Hannibal. Good film, bad argument. Starving animals would eat anything, I wouldn't dispute that. Hence why polar bears will eat people.

Originally Posted by MaverickZero

It comes down to survival. Our bodies need protein, bottom line. We weren't designed to eat veggies and swallow rocks, or else that's what we'd be doing. If it weren't for us breeding animals to use for food, they would be long extinct by now anyways.

We weren't designed just to eat meat either, we're designed to be omnivores just like the rest of the primates. We're also designed in such a way that we need vegetables and fruits more than anything else - you never hear about people surviving well on carnivorous diets.

Originally Posted by MaverickZero

So before you animal activists go throwing around insults and spraypainting fur coats, please take a moment to actually think logically.

I don't do any of those things.

Originally Posted by MaverickZero

I haven't seen a "healthy" looking vegetarian in my life. As for tofu and those suppliments, don't bother with excuses. If you were in the wild you'd have been dead long ago. Eaten by wolves, cyotes or picked apart by buzzards.

I'm a vegetarian, and my doctor can vouch for the fact that I'm healthier than most meat eaters, even my iron levels are higher. My reason for not eating meat is just that I don't need it at present, plain and simple. It's expensive and most often supports a corrupt industry, so I won't bother. It's perfectly possible to live healthily on a vegetarian diet, buddhists have been doing it for thousands of years - the problem is that many vegetarians in western society don't realise meat needs a replacement.

I don't think it's necessary for humans to stop eating meat completely - some people really enjoy it and I understand that. Some people can't absorb iron from plant sources and I understand that too. It's just ridiculous what a huge part of our diets it's become, and it isn't healthy for anyone to eat too much meat, least of all the animals. I believe only in a meat industry reform, not complete abolition.

And if I were in the wild it would be a matter of survival, in which case I would hunt and eat an animal if I had to. I have nothing against small communities of humans hunting animals if their environment can sustain it.

Originally Posted by MaverickZero

And please don't give me the "Humans are the only beings that torture animals" bit either. Ever seen Discovery Channel? See how the cats bring down their prey, and let it bleed to death?

Funnily enough I've been only metres away from a pack of lions ripping the balls off a live wildebeest. Seriously. I filmed it. I've also seen my own cats tearing the heads off squirrels, komodo dragons tearing apart goats, killer whales playing catch with live baby seals... I was raised by a biologist (and am soon to be one myself), and I've travelled to almost every continent observing wild animals.

I've seen animals torture one another relentlessly - but the result is always the same: the victims are completely devoured, nothing is wasted. Even when killer whales eat only the tongue of a baby humpback, the body becomes the basis of an entire ecosystem on the sea floor. The suffering is never for long, the deaths are necessary for the ecosystems, and above all, it's natural and sustainable.

Compare that to slaughterhouses.

Originally Posted by MaverickZero

They have no remorse. They do it to survive. As do we. Also, like one of my favorite comedians put it, once the cows are gone, we're gonna have to find a new vegetarian to go after.

We don't do it to survive, as I said earlier. Eating meat has become an indulgence in the Western world, a rather destructive one at that. Rainforests are being cut down at an alarming rate to make way for factory farms, and the grain farms used to support them. It's a waste of resources, and seriously unnecessary.

[Wormboy]

Originally Posted by MaverickZero

I guess you've never seen Hannibal... starve pigs long enough and they'll devour an entire human body.

It comes down to survival. Our bodies need protein, bottom line. We weren't designed to eat veggies and swallow rocks, or else that's what we'd be doing. If it weren't for us breeding animals to use for food, they would be long extinct by now anyways.

So before you animal activists go throwing around insults and spraypainting fur coats, please take a moment to actually think logically.

I haven't seen a "healthy" looking vegetarian in my life. As for tofu and those suppliments, don't bother with excuses. If you were in the wild you'd have been dead long ago. Eaten by wolves, cyotes or picked apart by buzzards.

And please don't give me the "Humans are the only beings that torture animals" bit either. Ever seen Discovery Channel? See how the cats bring down their prey, and let it bleed to death?

They have no remourse. They do it to survive. As do we. Also, like one of my favorite comedians put it, once the cows are gone, we're gonna have to find a new vegetarian to go after.

Ok you went a bit off the handles there. It is possible to be a healthy vegan. A girl I'm quite smitten with (have a date on friday :-D) is a vegan and she's quite healthy

[MaverickZero]

I was simply saying I've never met a healthy vegetarian.

[emma o]

Originally Posted by MaverickZero

I haven't seen a "healthy" looking vegetarian in my life. As for tofu and those suppliments, don't bother with excuses. If you were in the wild you'd have been dead long ago. Eaten by wolves, cyotes or picked apart by buzzards.

This just shows how incredibly clueless you are. And we are not living in the wild!

[Vyvian Blackthorne]

Originally Posted by Cicero

I have seen Hannibal. Good film, bad argument. Starving animals would eat anything, I wouldn't dispute that. Hence why polar bears will eat people.


We weren't designed just to eat meat either, we're designed to be omnivores just like the rest of the primates. We're also designed in such a way that we need vegetables and fruits more than anything else - you never hear about people surviving well on carnivorous diets.


I don't do any of those things.


I'm a vegetarian, and my doctor can vouch for the fact that I'm healthier than most meat eaters, even my iron levels are higher. My reason for not eating meat is just that I don't need it at present, plain and simple. It's expensive and most often supports a corrupt industry, so I won't bother. It's perfectly possible to live healthily on a vegetarian diet, buddhists have been doing it for thousands of years - the problem is that many vegetarians in western society don't realise meat needs a replacement.

I don't think it's necessary for humans to stop eating meat completely - some people really enjoy it and I understand that. Some people can't absorb iron from plant sources and I understand that too. It's just ridiculous what a huge part of our diets it's become, and it isn't healthy for anyone to eat too much meat, least of all the animals. I believe only in a meat industry reform, not complete abolition.

And if I were in the wild it would be a matter of survival, in which case I would hunt and eat an animal if I had to. I have nothing against small communities of humans hunting animals if their environment can sustain it.


Funnily enough I've been only metres away from a pack of lions ripping the balls off a live wildebeest. Seriously. I filmed it. I've also seen my own cats tearing the heads off squirrels, komodo dragons tearing apart goats, killer whales playing catch with live baby seals... I was raised by a biologist (and am soon to be one myself), and I've travelled to almost every continent observing wild animals.

I've seen animals torture one another relentlessly - but the result is always the same: the victims are completely devoured, nothing is wasted. Even when killer whales eat only the tongue of a baby humpback, the body becomes the basis of an entire ecosystem on the sea floor. The suffering is never for long, the deaths are necessary for the ecosystems, and above all, it's natural and sustainable.

Compare that to slaughterhouses.


We don't do it to survive, as I said earlier. Eating meat has become an indulgence in the Western world, a rather destructive one at that. Rainforests are being cut down at an alarming rate to make way for factory farms, and the grain farms used to support them. It's a waste of resources, and seriously unnecessary.

Go Cicero! <3 That was awesome.
Goth Forever

[Vyvian Blackthorne]

Originally Posted by MaverickZero

I was simply saying I've never met a healthy vegetarian.

Gosh. And how many have you met? Three?
Goth Forever
Goth Forever
Goth Forever

[MaverickZero]

Speaking of clueless, most of the people here don't seem to have opinions other than that of each other...

I've met plenty of vegetarians, and every one claims their doctor says they are healthier than the rest of us, yet they have the shakes, and visibly look ill. Maybe you people should stop acting like two year olds and instead take constructive criticism.

[emma o]

Originally Posted by MaverickZero

Speaking of clueless, most of the people here don't seem to have opinions other than that of each other...

I've met plenty of vegetarians, and every one claims their doctor says they are healthier than the rest of us, yet they have the shakes, and visibly look ill. Maybe you people should stop acting like two year olds and instead take constructive criticism.

Are you giving the constructive criticism? Where, because I don't see it? Who is acting like a two-year-old and how?
It's quite funny when you say vegetarians have shakes and they visibly look ill. We can look at all the test results, and I'm sure they are great results for any responsible vegan/vegetarian. I know many vegans and vegetarians and they all look and feel and are healthy. So am I.

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by MaverickZero

Speaking of clueless, most of the people here don't seem to have opinions other than that of each other...

I've met plenty of vegetarians, and every one claims their doctor says they are healthier than the rest of us, yet they have the shakes, and visibly look ill. Maybe you people should stop acting like two year olds and instead take constructive criticism.

It isn't 'constructive criticism' because you're telling people you've never met or even seen that they're unhealthy. That's generalisation.

I've never come across a vegetarian with the symptoms you described, not even when they've had a bad case of the flu. I can't explain what you've seen, but it certainly isn't the norm (and I've met vegetarians all over the world - even ones who'd never eaten meat their whole lives).

And we don't all share opinions here - there are some rather fiercely argumentative threads that prove that. You've just got an unpopular opinion in this case, that's all.

[MaverickZero]

Unpopular opinion doesn't mean I'm wrong. It's childish however that those of you who seem to think you're all right are just jumping to each others aid, without actually giving me any reason to think otherwise.

I am telling you the people whom I have met have been like this, and not have been very healthy looking. I am getting tired of these childish remarks, that I'm stupid because of what I've observed. Textbooks can TELL you what to believe, however I go by experience. I'm not generalizing, I'm stating facts that I have experienced first hand.

If you people would look beyond your close-minded borders, maybe you'd take notice to the outside world, instead of jumping down someones throat who has evidence otherwise.

This is a "Discussion" forum, not a Conservative/Republican Facist Website.

[Cicero]

I never called you stupid, nor do I think you are. I think you're sensing a malicious tone in my posts which isn't at all what I'm trying to project.

You say you're stating facts you've experienced first hand, and I could say exactly the same thing. I just challenged your views with my own knowledge and experience. And I'd guess that my experience of vegetarianism is likely wider than yours due to my rather extensive travels of the world, especially to places where vegetarianism is commonplace. That's just a guess though, since I know nothing about you.

It took a lot of thought and consideration for me to become vegetarian, it wasn't a snap decision based on 'caring for the animals'. I'm not ignorant about the way our bodies work, I'm an A+ biology and chemistry student, beyond college levels in the former. All the nutrition I need I can get from non-meat sources, and it isn't that hard to do so.

I can understand your point of view, but I know my body's fine the way I'm feeding it and I doubt that'll ever change. You can eat as much steak as you like, I just won't eat any myself, thanks.

[emma o]

Originally Posted by MaverickZero

Unpopular opinion doesn't mean I'm wrong. It's childish however that those of you who seem to think you're all right are just jumping to each others aid, without actually giving me any reason to think otherwise.

I am telling you the people whom I have met have been like this, and not have been very healthy looking. I am getting tired of these childish remarks, that I'm stupid because of what I've observed. Textbooks can TELL you what to believe, however I go by experience. I'm not generalizing, I'm stating facts that I have experienced first hand.

If you people would look beyond your close-minded borders, maybe you'd take notice to the outside world, instead of jumping down someones throat who has evidence otherwise.

This is a "Discussion" forum, not a Conservative/Republican Facist Website.

I this case you are wrong. And what the hell are you talking about vegans/vegetarians being close-minded? HAH, give me a big break...You think it's close-minded to think of others? To live the way that considers this planet and the animals and people in it precious? (although there are too many people.)
As you well said it, this is a discussion forum, so don't you be that conservative republican facist yourself.

[MaverickZero]

Originally Posted by emma o

I this case you are wrong. And what the hell are you talking about vegans/vegetarians being close-minded? HAH, give me a big break...You think it's close-minded to think of others? To live the way that considers this planet and the animals and people in it precious? (although there are too many people.)
As you well said it, this is a discussion forum, so don't you be that conservative republican facist yourself.

I'm the first to admit, I'm a severe Liberal/Democrat. Albeit I don't agree with some of the attitudes, I am quite the liberal. I am saying vegans/vegetarians have this aura about them that they are nth amount better than everyone else, because the fact they "save the environment".

I don't care about eating things with a face, I don't care about how many children it's had. I don't grow an emotional attachment to food.

That being said, I don't go around stealing cats and dogs from the neighbors either.

Maybe you people are missing the point because you all focus on one perticular item.

What you eat, be it meat or leaf, does not determine how healthy you are.

How you eat it determines your health.

The world is made up of different body types, and different people need different things. Diabetics, Hypoglycemics, Obese, Bolemic; plenty of people choose to eat what they choose to eat. Because you are vegan, doesn't mean it will work so well for Johnny Somebody.

So for one second, stop claiming "shannanigans" on people who eat meat and claim its animal cruelty, and start co-existing.

[Cicero]

Just one more note to add:

Could you please stop generalising against ALL vegans and vegetarians? We don't all hold the same views like it's some cult. We just happen not to eat a few particular food items - our reasons and all other opinions are often very different indeed.

[d.Nox]

Thought I'd throw in my bit.

I'm vegetarian; my diet has nothing to do with the environment or saving animals; and--looking in the mirror--I'm neither weak nor shaking.

Your mileage may vary.