Torture

[bleedingheart344]

Be that as it may, it still makes your previous point invalid, as you do bash the American people.

[MaverickZero]

Bashing or not bashing, the US has been chastising other countries (specifically Iraq) in how they treat their citizens and how they torture, etc. This shows that where one finger points, there are three pointing right back. It's not a gross exaggeration of the truth, it IS the truth.

It's not the only country alone in its hippocracy mind you... Britain for example, and the Darfur incident. They don't seem to be making that a public spectacle. Every country is with its faults. It's just the job of whomever is in power to shift focus on others.

[Smile]

Funny how a fight against terrorism turns into terrorism itself. One side of the American people push their government to take action against "terrorists" and another side wants the government to pull its troops out of Iraq, basically telling them "Stop killing our sons." So what does the government do? Well, they torture this citizen for 3 years and make it look like they're taking action--rooting out traitors amidst our own safe society--one that practices the death penalty and makes its citizens feel like we're inside a prison of our own fears. As an American, I disagree with many of our government's practices, but I can't help but slap my forehead at my own countrymen/women. Didn't we vote for these avaricious political animals? And if we didn't, aren't we just as hypocritical for despising our government but not caring when it all began? I can't speak for all Americans, I'm just talking about the major groups here. And I can't speak for the government either, but I can say that what we experience now--those horrible stories that the media glorifies for us listeners--is a product of actions we have or have not taken in the past. Despite everything, especially what Cpt. Sternn has said about the infringement of our constitutional rights (I do agree however), we, the citizens, still have the right to vote and speak out about issues (take Fahrenheit 911, if Bush was such a Nazi, wouldn't he have banned the movie?). We also have a right to set straight what we see is crooked, if we so choose.

[LadyLucretia]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Thats the problem these days. The American people do not care. Their 'caring' begins and ends with their own families, their own routines. If they get to work, pay their bills, and are able to do whatever it is they like to unwind, they care feck all for anyone elses plight. The average American may read about such acts as above, but unless it effect them directly, or someone they know, they don't even bother to follow the news story.


Thats from another thread, and taken out of context. However, I do stand by that statement, as it does accurately depict many Americans. Do you disagree with that assessment?

Double bullshit. It's from post #18, on this thread, and it's pretty obvious you're talking about American citizens, not American policy.

And as someone with a long history of volunteer work, who has worked with multiple American volunteer organizations that have tens of thousands of members, I'd have to disagree slightly. Anyone who lives somewhere with a high quality of life will be a bit spoiled, but I have met so many incredibly selfless people whose generosity easily overshadows the selfishness of 10 people. But I'm just a fat stupid American, what do I know?

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by LadyLucretia

Double bullshit. It's from post #18, on this thread, and it's pretty obvious you're talking about American citizens, not American policy.

And as someone with a long history of volunteer work, who has worked with multiple American volunteer organizations that have tens of thousands of members, I'd have to disagree slightly. Anyone who lives somewhere with a high quality of life will be a bit spoiled, but I have met so many incredibly selfless people whose generosity easily overshadows the selfishness of 10 people. But I'm just a fat stupid American, what do I know?

So you disagree? Now I call bullshit. You claim Americans on average have long histories of volunteer work? Yeah right.

[LadyLucretia]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

So you disagree? Now I call bullshit. You claim Americans on average have long histories of volunteer work? Yeah right.

Nice try, but I never said that. All I'm saying essentially is that making sweeping generalizations about *any* group of people - Americans, Muslims, the Irish, etc. - is a poor argument strategy, particularly when you're making character judgments. And it really is insulting to the small but important group of people who do not fit your stereotype.

http://www.communitycollaborations.org/index.html

www.habitatforhumanity.org

P.S. - Lying isn't very nice either

[CptSternn]

Thats exactly what your saying. Sure there *are* many volunteer organisations in America, but that doesn't mean a majority of American do any volunteering.

Trying to argue the American lifestyle is somehow centred around volunteerism, because thats what Americans are know for - their unfaltering ability to spend all their free time helping the poor, homeless, or persons with special needs is a laughable suggestion as best.

Americans don't get involved in any organisation that doesn't help them personally. There is no altruism there. It reminds me of the Simpsons episode where Homer becomes the paparazzi -

'Go out and help raise money for a cause that doesn't directly effect you or your family'

That pretty much sums up the American 'volunteerism' attitude.

...not that this has anything to do with the topic. You turned a discussion on how America is torturing Americans into a discussion on how much Americans volunteer.

Ever notice how the right-wing likes to make these straw man arguments and substitute them for the real debate?

Like when bush is asked about progress in Iraq, he likes to switch the debate to 'how these terrorists hate freedom' as an answer - which has nothing to do with the topic, and then gets the media debating about who loves freedom, what is freedom, etc.

You, much like the other right-wingers here, always try to derail the discussion, especially when you have nothing legitimate to contribute and no rebuttal.

[MaverickZero]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Thats exactly what your saying. Sure there *are* many volunteer organisations in America, but that doesn't mean a majority of American do any volunteering.


You, much like the other right-wingers here, always try to derail the discussion, especially when you have nothing legitimate to contribute and no rebuttal.

At least someone on this forum has a free thinking, intellegent mind.

[MaguMan]

Hmmm... well let's step back on topic then and address the statement that the American people, "Do not care about anyone but themselves." Here are a few articles that reflect this about the majority of Americans: They are by far the most charitable people in the entire world...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...aritable_N.htm
http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...le_nation.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16638810/

"What people find especially interesting about this, and it's true year after year, that such a high percentage comes from individual donors," Giving USA Chairman Richard Jolly said.

[delicti]

Originally Posted by MaverickZero

At least someone on this forum has a free thinking, intellegent mind.

Let's not confuse unhinged with free-thinking. You should probably read this thread:

https://www.gothic.net/boards/showthread.php?t=5423

In it, Sternn claims to live in a town filled with refugees from a war that was completely fictitious. He also badly botches the timeline for oil refining in Nicaragua by tens of years, with multiple events.

There's also some juicy threads out there where he brags about how he and his buds mooch off the government full-time, while saying that the US welfare system has more abuse that the one in his country.

Oh, and he claims he's a refugee in Ireland and can't work. Even though I referred him directly to an Irish agency that specifically finds work for refugees, and he claims to be a highly skilled computer technician.


I think the people who believe him are really the stupid Americans that he thinks we all are.

[LadyLucretia]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Thats exactly what your saying. Sure there *are* many volunteer organisations in America, but that doesn't mean a majority of American do any volunteering.

Let's reread what I said:

Originally Posted by LadyLucretia

And as someone with a long history of volunteer work, who has worked with multiple American volunteer organizations that have tens of thousands of members, I'd have to disagree slightly.

My rough estimation of people who've worked with the same organizations I have = 10,000 - 99,000. US Population - around 300,000,000. I suck at math and even I can figure out that's *far* from a majority.

Americans don't get involved in any organisation that doesn't help them personally. There is no altruism there.

But I thought you don't bash Americans????

You, much like the other right-wingers here, always try to derail the discussion,

So I'm a right-winger now because I disagree with you? Lovely. I'm probably as moderate politically as they come so you're really off in la-la land on that one.

especially when you have nothing legitimate to contribute and no rebuttal.

You're the one who lied about bashing Americans.

I guess I must have struck a nerve, though, if I got you to backpedal into political name-calling and misquoting and your other usual diversionary tactics.

[MaverickZero]

I guess really my only beef with the righties of this forum, is that they bring no substance to political debates, other than the disgraceful namecalling of those who are opposed to their views.

I would have more respect for those who actually know what they're talking about, rather than people who just jump in headstrong, without any substance in their arguments, then default on childish name calling when they can't make a valid point.

Charity and Volunteer organizations may have billions of members, but those are just numbers. Do you really think there are billions of people constantly giving up their time from their families and social lives to do charitible work? That is a joke.

The reason people throw money at charity is so that it will go away and they can smile and think they've made a difference.

[MaguMan]

Originally Posted by MaverickZero

I guess really my only beef with the righties of this forum, is that they bring no substance to political debates, other than the disgraceful namecalling of those who are opposed to their views.

I love how this statement reeks of irony.

Aside from the blind accusations and assessments coming forth from you, there are more than just views that are being debated. In politics, there's only one real thing you can debate with people; and that's the basis for which they formulate those views. Generally those stilts are called facts, and when people can no longer substantiate their views with supporting facts because they've been shown to prove otherwise, they resort to this sort of left/right bitching.

You want to talk about a lack of substance? It's posts like those that really have nothing to offer in discussion.

I would have more respect for those who actually know what they're talking about, rather than people who just jump in headstrong, without any substance in their arguments, then default on childish name calling when they can't make a valid point.

If they don't, prove them wrong with factual data. If you can't do that, you don't have a leg to stand on. It's been seen here time and time again; people standing on their cardboard soapboxes, just to have them collapse right under their feet.

The reason people throw money at charity is so that it will go away and they can smile and think they've made a difference.

Really? Did you poll to find this out? Was it a scientific poll that was responsible for gathering this factual information? I mean, I know you wouldn't come here with broad generalizations formulated on your own personal thoughts, right? I mean, with all this talk of substance, surely your information would have some.

And for the record, is donating based on wanting to make a difference somehow negating of the fact that people care?

[MaverickZero]

And I suppose you've been endowed with the knowledge of the gods as well?

I am pretty sick and tired of you doing nothing but criticizing posts that offer opinions. Why not make your own opinion to argue the point? No, you decide instead to demean the other person.

It's common sense. You can NOT tell me you see a thousand people every day walking the streets helping homeless, cleaning up parks, scouring beaches for litter.

And if you CAN, then please send me videos and testimonies because I simply don't believe it. My statements have TRUTH because simply there are NOT thousands, nor hundreds, nor DOZENS of people rallying together all the time for these causes, even though they volunteer once and a while.

Stop giving me this tripe about generalization. What are you doing yourself? Are you a part of these magical groups that go around and make everything better? I doubt it. You waste your free time posting on a webforum. Kind of hypocritical if you ask me.

At least I don't claim to be proactively helping people on my free time. I live in reality.

[LadyLucretia]

Originally Posted by MaverickZero

I am pretty sick and tired of you doing nothing but criticizing posts that offer opinions.

Isn't that what you're doing here:

I would have more respect for those who actually know what they're talking about, rather than people who just jump in headstrong, without any substance in their arguments,

Substance = facts, right? Opinions = not based on facts.

there are NOT thousands, nor hundreds, nor DOZENS of people rallying together all the time for these causes, even though they volunteer once and a while.

Facts please? I know at least a dozen people who work full time in the nonprofit sector.

Are you a part of these magical groups that go around and make everything better?

At least I don't claim to be proactively helping people on my free time. I live in reality.

The groups I'm part of may not be "magical," but I still manage to participate in them AND live in reality. Maybe I only have 40-60 hours a year to spend volunteering, but so do a hell of a lot of college students. I once stayed in a volunteer camp with 800 of them, and that was just one tiny town on the gulf coast.

I never claimed that all Americans are altruistic. All I said was that even the small number of volunteers I've come in contact with are enough to disprove the theory that ALL Americans are selfish and self-absorbed.

[thedoll]

teeheehee! you guys are silly when you bicker!

[MaguMan]

Originally Posted by MaverickZero

And I suppose you've been endowed with the knowledge of the gods as well?

I'd just say I'm, "well endowed," and leave it at that.

It's common sense. You can NOT tell me you see a thousand people every day walking the streets helping homeless, cleaning up parks, scouring beaches for litter.

You know what else I don't see? A thousand people taking a shit everyday. Is that common sense too? That they're not out there taking shits in toilets cause I'm not hanging out in a bathroom all day? I don't understand the logic in this particular argument.

Stop giving me this tripe about generalization. What are you doing yourself? Are you a part of these magical groups that go around and make everything better? I doubt it. You waste your free time posting on a webforum. Kind of hypocritical if you ask me.

Do I need to be? Does the fact that I don't volunteer my time somehow negate the statistical data that says Americans are the most charitable in the entire world, as recorded by the amount of money they donate compared to the nation's GDP?

Let's go back to your common sense and examine all of those Americans that don't donate or volunteer: prisoners, persons suffering severe brain damage, individuals in comas, the homeless, individuals in asylums, astronauts in space, people on life-support, and the folks that don't volunteer.

No one is saying that all Americans volunteer. Don't stoop the level of CptSternn when you're arguments are so pathetically flawed you have to create one by putting words in people's mouths.

[dark_dragon_of_ice]

http://blogcritics.org/archives/2005/06/27/160803.php
"Polls over the last decade show most Americans believe 10 percent of the federal budget is spent on humanitarian and economic aid for the world's poor and that America gives more than any other country.

But the world's richest economy actually spends just over one half of 1 percent of its budget on aid to the world's poor, less per capita than every other wealthy nation.

"Americans believe they are giving a lot already and that they are giving more than other countries on a percentage basis," said Steven Kull, director of the University of Maryland's Program on International Policy Attitudes, which has compiled data on Americans' aid views.
...
The United States was criticized for giving too little government aid after the deadly tsunami that hit Southeast Asia last year. U.S. President George W. Bush said America gave a lot more when private donations were included.

But even when private giving is counted, American aid on a per-capita basis ranks 19th out of 21 rich countries, according to Foreign Policy magazine's 2004 Ranking the Rich survey."

[MaguMan]

The Michael Moore tactic of selective reporting is always a winner, until the whole picture is shown:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16638810/

Yeah, in total private contributions to charity, the second in line doesn't even give half of what Americans do annually in terms of percentage of GDP. But don't leave it up to me to tell you that, let's see what the USA Today article has to say:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...aritable_N.htm

Gaudiani said Americans give twice as much as the next most charitable country, according to a November 2006 comparison done by the Charities Aid Foundation. In philanthropic giving as a percentage of gross domestic product, the U.S. ranked first at 1.7%. No. 2 Britain gave 0.73%, while France, with a 0.14% rate, trailed such countries as South Africa, Singapore, Turkey and Germany.

Hmm... I could have sworn I'd seen this information before. Maybe one page back? Someone's not reading the thread. Tsk, tsk, tsk. Looks like Americans need to donate more to New Zealand's educational system.

[dark_dragon_of_ice]

I thank you for the new information I was merely doing a quick search.
I might actually look deeper into this..
Im actually not trying to be anti American ..it was just lazy postiong on my half =/
New Zealand's education system is fine thank you very much and we don't need America helping us..last time I looked we weren't a 3rd world country. If you have any problems with how New Zealand is then spit it out.

[dark_dragon_of_ice]

Sorry for the double post but http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16638810/
shows what citizens pay against gdp. What it doesn't have is how much the government gives. Remember that New Zealand is a socialist government and thus we have a bit of taxes XD.
Also most companies in New Zealand are not New Zealand owned meaning profits go off shore a lot of the time.

[MaguMan]

We're not talking about governments here though. America's may suck the big one as far as foreign aid [and I'm sure CptSternn will capitalize off this opportunity to become distracted], but this discussion was mostly sparked in response to CptSternn's slanderously provocative statements regarding American citizens, "not caring."

[MaverickZero]

L Lucretia, you continue to prove my point by making meaningless and laughable attempts at tearing my posts apart.

You still haven't answered my question, nor proved anything of relevance. So as far as I'm concerned, I'm done talking to you. You can keep your childish flaming to yourself, and please all of your friends who come to flame everyone who disagrees with you, please shut the hell up. You people aren't looking for a truthful conversation, you just look to insult and run the show your way.

Grow up.

[LadyLucretia]

Originally Posted by MaverickZero

You still haven't answered my question, nor proved anything of relevance. So as far as I'm concerned, I'm done talking to you. You can keep your childish flaming to yourself, and please all of your friends who come to flame everyone who disagrees with you, please shut the hell up. You people aren't looking for a truthful conversation, you just look to insult and run the show your way.

If you can't handle defending your own words, or supporting your own views with data, then I can't say I'll miss your perspective in this debate.

[delicti]

Originally Posted by MaverickZero

L Lucretia, you continue to prove my point by making meaningless and laughable attempts at tearing my posts apart.

You still haven't answered my question, nor proved anything of relevance. So as far as I'm concerned, I'm done talking to you. You can keep your childish flaming to yourself, and please all of your friends who come to flame everyone who disagrees with you, please shut the hell up. You people aren't looking for a truthful conversation, you just look to insult and run the show your way.

Grow up.

What the hell was this then?

You have yet to post facts to back up anything that you say. Right now you have yet to do anything but flame people and spout poorly formed opinion with no backing arguments.

What makes it even more humorous is that the majority of your posts boil down to, "you suck because you don't post any facts." I don't think you've posted a fact yet, and the vast majority of your posts are only made to insult other members.

Nobody here is fooled by projection and amateur lying. If you're offended by our facts and you have none supporting you, guess whose problem that is?