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Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right." -H.L. Menken

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Old 10-11-2007, 12:37 PM   #1
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I've lost faith in democracy for a while.

Okay if you aren't from Canada or Ontario, you may have no clue what this is about. I'm just suprised.

Yesterday we had a provincial election and the winner was the Liberal party leader Dalton Maguinty(sp?) with majority government.

I have issues with this (if you are a strong believer in the Liberal party and Dalton Maguinty then forgive me). In my opinion he has been the Premier of Ontario for the past few years and has led us in a very bad situation, yet he got majority government.

Why?

All he stood for was education and how he wants to eliminate faith based schooling. That is a very miniscule problem compared to his series of broken promises, raising taxes, increasing waiting times for surgery, increasing the province's debt tremendously, etc.

Some people did not vote for John Tory (leader of the Conservative Party) because he doesn't have enough experience. That's messed up. He has brought a lot of profit for his company and is a very respected man. That's not right.

Some didn't vote Howard Hampton (the NDP leader)... I don't even know why.

This may be better in the ranting thread, but it involves politics so I'm not sure. Does anyone agree or disagree?
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Old 10-11-2007, 12:40 PM   #2
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I lost faith in democracy a long time ago.
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Old 10-11-2007, 12:43 PM   #3
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LOL. Yes a new method for picking political leaders needs to be developed to end this madness. People who barely have any education vote just because of random things. That's not right!!!

How about if the only people allowed to vote are those who have actually watched the political debate or something along those lines?
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Old 10-11-2007, 01:08 PM   #4
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Philosopher king!
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Old 10-11-2007, 05:08 PM   #5
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REAL democracies can only reflect the people. Stupid people elect stupid leaders.

It's not democracy you should be losing faith in, it's society in general. Also, PASSIVE and INDIFFERENT people give way for abusive and stupid leaders as well.

I'm sorry, but only a small percentage of the population is in any way aware of certain things. :-/ I wish it could change. But how can you make someone use their head?
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Old 10-11-2007, 05:51 PM   #6
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That's so true.
I wish there was some way that we can change it.

I'm not saying that democracy sucks, I just wish it could be modified a bit.
Democracy caused George Bush to be in power and any other idiots like him.
I think that people don't like to do their research on the candidates.
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Old 10-11-2007, 06:16 PM   #7
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I think that people just don't really care. From what I was told by a friend, "Most people don't want to think or can. They really just want to be told what to do so they don't have to worry about it."

As for me, I could be wrong but my opinion on the voters is that they kinda find voting to be a hassle or pointless.
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Old 10-11-2007, 07:15 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ††BlackRose††
Democracy caused George Bush to be in power and any other idiots like him.
Actually, it wasn't democracy. It was an unfair representative electoral college.
George Bush didn't get the majority vote; hell, I think he didn't even get the plurality vote.
Democracy really doesn't work unless everyone is politically active, and if everyone were politically active, communism would be much fairer and all-out anarchism even better.
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Old 10-11-2007, 07:30 PM   #9
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So maybe George Bush was a bad example. :P

I almost feel like gathering everyone and trying to explain to them the importance of knowing and understanding. If shit like this happens more often I may turn to anarchy.

Although having a stable government is a very important and Lord of the Flies is a perfect example of life without rules and regulations.
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Old 10-11-2007, 09:04 PM   #10
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We're going with the lame duck we know and love.

Who knows WHAT the hell Tory would bring to Ontario.

Hopefully, we can get Canada's government a MAJORITY LIBERAL so we can stop fighting every bill McGuinty tries to pass. It's about time someone takes Harper off the soap box of the country.
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Old 10-11-2007, 09:10 PM   #11
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Hoooooh boy. I have a lot to say on this one. But soon enough. I have to go to work in a bit.

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Old 10-12-2007, 02:55 AM   #12
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You will find most off the problems people in America worry about are just that - American problems.

If you move outside of America, life is MUCH easier. Less hassle, less problems, and thats just the beginning.

I'm not saying other nations don't have issues themselves, we do, but on the scale that they have in America, with the effects being what they are there, there is nothing really comparative.

Life throughout Europe is VERY laid back in comparison. Also, our political system, although by no means perfect, works much better than the one in America.
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Old 10-12-2007, 06:49 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by CptSternn
If you move outside of America, life is MUCH easier. Less hassle, less problems, and thats just the beginning.
Especially if you're jumping onto another country's welfare roles, right Sternn?.

As someone who has relatives who actually work overseas, I can say that while there are cultural differences, people are people everywhere.
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Old 10-12-2007, 08:55 AM   #14
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Democracy does not exist.

All governments are aprossive.

They don't trust us.
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Old 10-12-2007, 10:02 AM   #15
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Wait...what country has a democracy? I can't think of any. For example, many people call the US a democracy, which isn't true, it's a democratic republic.

Is there actually a country that's purely democratic...?
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Old 10-12-2007, 10:13 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia
Wait...what country has a democracy? I can't think of any. For example, many people call the US a democracy, which isn't true, it's a democratic republic.

Is there actually a country that's purely democratic...?
Quite true. Even the ancient Greeks had requirements citizenry, and underclasses that were not able to vote on their fate.

I don't know if a true democracy has ever existed, but I'm somewhere near the believe that it would be a colossal failure.
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Old 10-12-2007, 01:24 PM   #17
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Sorry, I meant oppressive...
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Old 10-12-2007, 01:30 PM   #18
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liberty

Quote:
Originally Posted by delicti
Quite true. Even the ancient Greeks had requirements citizenry, and underclasses that were not able to vote on their fate.

I don't know if a true democracy has ever existed, but I'm somewhere near the believe that it would be a colossal failure.
There have been a couple of attempts to achieve this.
Have you ever read a novel called Gargantua?
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Old 10-12-2007, 01:40 PM   #19
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That's very interesting.

I don't think that we really had a true democracy.
In any case, something needs to be done about this and fast.
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Old 10-12-2007, 01:48 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia
Wait...what country has a democracy? I can't think of any. For example, many people call the US a democracy, which isn't true, it's a democratic republic.

Is there actually a country that's purely democratic...?
A republic is still a democracy.
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Old 10-12-2007, 01:54 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viscus
A republic is still a democracy.
Yes, but it is a hybrid. Ultimately, direct democracy could be seen as good or bad, depending on how much you trust people in general. I tend to be a little paranoid, so I'll keep my mouth shut on this one. ;-)
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Old 10-12-2007, 02:28 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by viscus
A republic is still a democracy.
We're discussing direct democracies.
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Old 10-12-2007, 02:53 PM   #23
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Yes, thank you, "direct democracy" was the phase I wanted to hear. ^_^

Erm, I tend to view direct democracy as a very unwieldy form of governing that can put some populist laws in effect that sometimes end up being not so good in the long term. We have a good bit of it out here in California, with popular initiatives and the legislature submitting measures to the voters on the November ballot, usually on controversial things that they themselves don't want to vote on (lazy bastards, what the hell do we pay them for?). It's ended up in some laws that haven't turned out so well, and most initiatives end up in court over the question of constitutionality anyway.

I would say my favored form of government is the aforementioned philosopher kingship, but I don't think there's anyone out there who is smart or virtuous enough for the job.
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Old 10-12-2007, 02:55 PM   #24
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The following is an introductory message to a mystical text called
The Book of The Law, it's an inspired book written by Aleister Crowley, 19th century poet, occultist, mountain climber and philosopher, founder of liberALlism.

I thought it might come in handy due to its strikingly revealing relation to the topic we are discussing. Follow this link if you'd like to read the full text.

http://lilytears.com/spirituality/th...flaw/intro.htm

IV

The New Aeon

The third chapter of the Book is difficult to understand, and may be very repugnant to many people born before the date of the book (April, 1904).
It tells us the characteristics of the Period on which we are now entered. Superficially, they appear appalling. We see some of them already with terrifying clarity. But fear not!
It explains that certain vast 'stars' (or aggregates of experience) may be described as Gods. One of these is in charge of the destinies of this planet for periods of 2,000 years.* In the history of the world, as far as we know accurately, are three such Gods: Isis, the mother, when the Universe was conceived as simple nourishment drawn directly from her; this period is marked by matriarchal government.
Next, beginning 500 B.C., Osiris, the father, when the universe was imagined as catastrophic, love, death, resurrection, as the method by which experience was built up; this corresponds to patriarchal systems.
Now, Horus, the child, in which we come to perceive events as a continual growth partaking in its elements of both these methods, and not to be overcome by circumstance. This present period involves the recognition of the individual as the unit of society.
We realize ourselves as explained in the first paragraphs of this essay. Every event, including death, is only one more accretion to our experience, freely willed by ourselves from the beginning and therefore also predestined.
This "God," Horus, has a technical title: Heru-Ra-Ha, a combination of twin gods, Ra-Hoor-Khuit and Hoor-Paar-Kraat. The meaning of this doctrine must be studied in 'Magick.' (He is symbolized as a Hawk-Headed God enthroned.)
He rules the present period of 2,000 years, beginning in 1904. Everywhere his government is taking root. Observe for yourselves the decay of the sense of sin, the growth of innocence and irresponsibility, the strange modifications of the reproductive instinct with a tendency to become bi-sexual or epicene, the childlike confidence in progress combined with nightmare fear of catastrophe, against which we are yet half unwilling to take precautions.
Consider the outcrop of dictatorships, only possible when moral growth is in its earliest stages, and the prevalence of infantile cults like Communism, Fascism, Pacifism, Health Crazes, Occultism in nearly all its forms, religions sentimentalised to the point of practical extinction.
Consider the popularity of the cinema, the wireless, the football pools and guessing competitions, all devices for soothing fractious infants, no seed of purpose in them.
Consider sport, the babyish enthusiasms and rages which it excites, whole nations disturbed by disputes between boys.
Consider war, the atrocities which occur daily and leave us unmoved and hardly worried.
We are children.
How this new Aeon of Horus will develop, how the Child will grow up, these are for us to determine, growing up ourselves in the way of the Law of Thelema under the enlightened guidance of the Master Therion.

V

The Next Step

Democracy dodders.
Ferocious Fascism, cackling Communism, equally frauds, cavort crazily all over the globe.
They are hemming us in.
They are abortive births of the Child, the New Aeon of Horus.
Liberty stirs once more in the womb of Time.
Evolution makes its changes by anti-Socialistic ways. The 'abnormal' man who foresees the trend of the times and adapts circumstance intelligently, is laughed at, persecuted, often destroyed by the herd; but he and his heirs, when the crisis comes, are survivors.
Above us to-day hangs a danger never yet paralleled in history. We suppress the individual in more and more ways. We think in terms of the herd. War no longer kills soldiers; it kills all indiscriminately. Every new measure of the most democratic and autocratic governments is Communistic in essence. It is always restriction. We are all treated as imbecile children. Dora, the Shops Act, the Motoring Laws, Sunday suffocation, the Censorship--they won't trust us to cross the roads at will.
Fascism is like Communism, and dishonest into the bargain. The dictators suppress all art, literature, theatre, music, news, that does not meet their requirements; yet the world only moves by the light of genius. The herd will be destroyed in mass.
The establishment of the Law of Thelema is the only way to preserve individual liberty and to assure the future of the race.
In the words of the famous paradox of the Comte de Fénix--The absolute rule of the state shall be a function of the absolute liberty of each individual will. All men and women are invited to co-operate with the Master Therion in this, the Great Work.
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Old 10-12-2007, 04:43 PM   #25
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Zeronegativeplus...

Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. But I must say, I find this a bit odd that you'd bring up even a shred of that book here. It did say what it said in the end I suppose.
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