Hate speech.

[Mon Coeur Noir]

I hate how in America it is easily accepted that people can be "DEEPLY OFFENDED" by anything. I hate how this whole world is afraid to be honest (and I don't mean RUDE, just honest.) Think or say the wrong thing and your done. I agree with Methadrine.

[deafasadoornail]

Back on topic, I'm glad the woman was released but someone clarify something for me.

In Islamic countries, MANY MANY children are named Muhammad! It's like the most common name in the world. In fact, the Koran says if you have one thousand sons, name them all Muhammad. Imagine the problems that would cause....

Anyway, I saw the naming of the bear as being similar to a bear in a classroom in Mexico, a strongly Catholic country, being named Jesus. There are just a lot of kids in Mexico named Jesus. No big deal. Anyway, did I miss something?

[Drake Dun]

Apparently it has to do with connecting the name of Muhammad (piss be upon him) with an animal. It might also have to do with the fact that Islam is so fucking insane that it makes Christianity look like a holiday. Just working on a hunch, here.

Drake

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by Drake Dun

Apparently it has to do with connecting the name of Muhammad (piss be upon him) with an animal. It might also have to do with the fact that Islam is so fucking insane that it makes Christianity look like a holiday. Just working on a hunch, here.

Drake

Thats a quite bias and bigoted statement don't you think? You might not agree with those religions or their practices, but such comments to me seem like the sort of thing you hear from skinheads and other racist organisations.

I mean, in converse - you are living in Japan. One might say that the traditional customs, especially ones regarding women, in that culture are quite mental when compared to other cultures.

[Drake Dun]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Thats a quite bias and bigoted statement don't you think? You might not agree with those religions or their practices, but such comments to me seem like the sort of thing you hear from skinheads and other racist organisations.

It depends on what you mean by "biased" and "bigoted". I'm trying to figure out what you want to say, here. As near as I can tell, it's intended as a kind of general admonishment for the unapologetic contempt I show to Islam. The effectiveness of such an admonishment relies, however, upon an ethic of automatic deference to religious opinion which I do not share with you.

The comparison to racist organizations is, in addition to being inaccurate, irrelevant. Either my ideas have value, or they don't. What some lanky shaved-headed kid in Oklahoma thinks is quite beside the point.

I mean, in converse - you are living in Japan. One might say that the traditional customs, especially ones regarding women, in that culture are quite mental when compared to other cultures.

That's the line, but there is much less hay to make out of it than people seem to think. I notice gender discrimination here primarily in one context - the business context, in which there is a clear discrepancy between men and women (more than in the States, for example). That's obviously significant, but it's about as far as things go.

Women in Japan are treated with immeasurably more respect than any woman living under Sharia law. That observation brings us full circle, doesn't it?

Drake

[Mir]

haha, I like the contempt Drake shows towards Islam and I agree, Islam is just an evolved form of Christianity, just more barbaric and extreme.

Most Muslims are in a phase where their mentality mirrors that of Fundamentalist Christians during the inquisition/crusades.

I have lived in a country where there was a partial implementation of Sharia Law. It is a fucking nightmare and yes, women always suffer as Sharia is a very pro-men law especially in cases like ra.pe/domestic violence.

[Godslayer Jillian]

It's not more barbaric and extreme. It's just more fundamental.
Islam was more liberal than Christianity in medieval times. They just haven't changed their costumes much.
The only reason Christianity is not as bad as Islam today is because of the influence secularism has had on western thought.
So, yay for free thinkers!

[Mir]

Right now Islam is doing all it can to stifle free thought. You know if you are a Muslim by virtue of birth and declare yourself a non-believer, it is punishable by death. I mean what the fuck?

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by Drake Dun

It depends on what you mean by "biased" and "bigoted". I'm trying to figure out what you want to say, here. As near as I can tell, it's intended as a kind of general admonishment for the unapologetic contempt I show to Islam. The effectiveness of such an admonishment relies, however, upon an ethic of automatic deference to religious opinion which I do not share with you.

What most westerns do not realise is Islam is not just a religion. It is a way of life. It encompasses relgion, culture, and a lifestyle choice all in one. To attack it as a 'religion', as many westerns these days try to do is to outright attack people who live in such countries. Unlike Christianity in America, where people choose it and choose to abide by (or not) the moral laws that they follow is completely different.

Also, you must note that their culture is directly tied to their religion. To say that Islam has certain faults, is also saying this whole race of people has these faults.

I'm not willing to say that, as I feel, like with *all* cultures, that there are many distinct differences. Some aspects I might like or agree with, others not so much, but I never directly attack a race of people for their culture.

The comparison to racist organizations is, in addition to being inaccurate, irrelevant. Either my ideas have value, or they don't. What some lanky shaved-headed kid in Oklahoma thinks is quite beside the point.

True, however, posting such statements is what makes the backbone of such organisations. When the republicans in congress post stats that show 80% of people in American jails are black, it fuels that racial fire and gives ammo to the same groups. I am only saying that if you post such comments here, you need to temper them with a point, not just a blatant attack on their culture/religion (i.e. your comment about Allah) else you come off as someone just adding more fuel to this growing, racist fire.

That's the line, but there is much less hay to make out of it than people seem to think. I notice gender discrimination here primarily in one context - the business context, in which there is a clear discrepancy between men and women (more than in the States, for example). That's obviously significant, but it's about as far as things go.

The whole geshia thing? Women walking behind men (not that this is still practices as much)? Women in a sub-servant role in society in general? How many women hold high ranking positions in Japanese corporations? Women are not treated as a material object?

Women in Japan are treated with immeasurably more respect than any woman living under Sharia law. That observation brings us full circle, doesn't it?

Well, once again thats a matter of perspective. When it comes to crazy sex, underage sex, r.ape, and the like - the Japanese are the ones selling this sort of thing worldwide. I know - my video collection - anime and other - contains lots of outlandish shite that I have NEVER seen in any other culture. So women under Sharia law might have to wear a burka. Does that make them more repressed than ones having sex with 12 cocked aliens, wearing a horse harness, and simulating a violent r.ape?

Being held as second class and kept as a reverent item as compared to being held as second class and used as a tool for obscene sexual amusement for the whole world - which one is better? Given the choice - which one would women pick?

Maybe we should ask a few here!

[clockworkcoffin]

muslims really need to get a grip. i'm not generalizing and i'm not racist but i don't give a shit about political correctness. on that note i really do think that these extremist dogmatic religions like catholicism and muslim need to be removed.

[Drake Dun]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

What most westerns do not realise is Islam is not just a religion. It is a way of life... Also, you must note that their culture is directly tied to their religion. To say that Islam has certain faults, is also saying this whole race of people has these faults.

I'll get to this sometime soon, when I am feeling in the mood for a nice long post.

Drake

[Tumor]

Originally Posted by Drake Dun

Apparently it has to do with connecting the name of Muhammad (piss be upon him) with an animal. It might also have to do with the fact that Islam is so fucking insane that it makes Christianity look like a holiday. Just working on a hunch, here.

Drake

And what's so wrong with connecting the name of an animal with another animal?

[Godslayer Jillian]

While I agree with you, you cannot think that's a valid point. We're talking about a specific incident under a specific context.

[CptSternn]

I found an article today which fits right with the discussion...

Islamic Like Me: Is Western Culture More Sexually Oppressive Than The Burka?

http://news.**********/s/huffpost/20...uffpost/076498

Many feminist readers expressed solidarity with their burka-clad sisters: While not necessarily "agreeing" with laws that"force" women to swaddle themselves in black wool, they sympathized with a woman's desire to do so "by choice," given the oppression Western women are subject to walking around unswaddled:

"[S]uggesting that western women are in some way more liberated and free because of how they dress is a little off the mark," wrote screenname Hoopoe, speaking for the majority with this view. "Freeing women from what the author calls 'oppressive' attire in the west, and particularly the U.S., has imposed a whole new set of expectations upon women to conform to the standards of attractiveness designated by the culture. the word 'attractive' is important -- after all, who are women 'attracting' with their appearance if not men? have no illusions: our 'choices' are still largely dictated by the will of men.

"in the extreme, these standards lead to eating disorders, plastic surgery, a massive cosmetics industry, and a whole array of magazines to push the new 'must have' fashions of the season, etc..."

"it may make some people feel better to tell themselves they are more cultured, more free, and more respected because they can choose to wear a skimpy top to show off their new breast implants and the abs it took six months of torture in the gym to develop, but this is one woman who doesn't buy it. the way i see it, women get a pretty raw deal everywhere..."

And screenname pa104inf wrote: "America is rife with violence and suffering and the women here need to stand up and take responsibility for allowing themselves to be degraded, objectified and reduced to a sexual object."

My reply: Oh, to be objectified and reduced to a sexual object! Kidding. KIDDING. (That was my middle-aged ego speaking...)

Seriously, let me begin by saying that as a mother of three -- including a teenage girl -- I am constantly made aware of the pressures in the culture that encourage my daughters to look and behave like skanks. Further, there is no way of keeping away these pressures, short of blacking out the windows, disconnecting the television and computers -- as well as plugging up every other crevice into which they may seep. I think few Americans (outside of Maxim-reading teenage boys) would disagree that our pop culture could be toned down a bit without infringing on free speech. In this view, feminists and Evangelicals are not so far apart: feminists believe almighty men are to blame for objectifying women; Evangelicals, the godless. But both sides would like to see fewer tattooed cleavages of partying celebrities affronting them when they buy milk.

As a parent, I know I have to do my best to limit my daughters' (and son's) exposure to these pressures; I also have to take responsibility for the example I set them, and the rules that I make. But at some point -- as teenagers are constantly at pains to point out -- we have to acknowledge our children as individuals who will need to develop their own resistance to cultural infections. We can give them antibiotics -- but they are the ones who have to take them. That's how citizens of free and democratic societies are launched.

So as often as I sincerely wish to throw a blanket over my teenage daughter before she goes out, I know I can't do this (although I can cluck, like a churchwoman, "Aren't you going to be cold in that, dear?"). I'm sure Mr. Muhammed Parvez felt the same sort of frustration with his 16-year-old daughter, Aqsa, before he decided the solution was to strangle her to death. In the otherwise modern, democratic suburb of Toronto in which the Parvezes live, Aqsa, according to her girlfriends, "was having trouble at home because she did not conform to the family's religious beliefs and refused to wear a traditional Islamic head scarf, or hijab.

"'She wanted to go different ways than her family wanted to go, and she wanted to make her own path, but he (her father) wouldn't let her,' one of her classmates told the CBC.

"'She loved clothes' another of her friends, Dominiquia Holmes-Thompson, told the Toronto Star. 'She just wanted to show her beauty... She just wanted to dress like us, just like a normal person.'

"According to her friends, Aqsa had worn the hijab at school last year, but rebelled in recent months."

And the girl wasn't even being told to wear a burka! So why did Mr. Parvez believe murder was the appropriate punishment for teenage rebellion? Because according to the version of Islam to which Mr. Parvez subscribes, his daughter -- like his wife -- is his personal property. As such, he has the right to punish her how he pleases (or, as he might put it, how "Allah" thinks she should be punished). When such a daughter finally decides to "stand up and take responsibility for herself," she doesn't get grounded, she gets killed.

There are differences between "pressures" -- which individuals can choose to resist -- and "oppression" -- which individuals have no power to resist. Those who defend the burka place themselves intellectually on the side of those who would ban all books because some might contain dangerous ideas or smut; ban the Internet because it carries pornography as well as information; ban the sight of women because even the slightest show of flesh could tempt a man, and we can't rely on individuals to regulate themselves.

Let me ask those who defend the burka on the grounds it "liberates" women from sexual pressures: If it led to more respect for women, why do those who wear it live in societies where they are among the worst treated in the world? And why, for all our boob jobs and celebrity tattoos, do American women receive among the most male respect in the world?

Originally Posted by Drake Dun

I'll get to this sometime soon, when I am feeling in the mood for a nice long post.

Drake

A-fucking-MEN bro! I too have the same ideals as you...Its too bad the rest of the stupidassed world, including the moderators of this board don't have the same view points... Cheers bro, and may you defeat the stupid assed degenerate infidels! \M/\M/ Need help? PM me... We'll defeat the non-believers!

[Lapin]

Originally Posted by NachtSorcier

[...]God (Jehovah, Allah, whatever name you put on it) is probably a pretty cool dude (I know if I could create a sunset I really wouldn't give a shit what the insignificant insects known as humans were doing.[...]

Actually, humans made those pretty sunsets. The colors are caused by the amount of pollution in the air. Just felt that should be added.

Have you ever actually read the Bible? I know I joke sometimes and act ignorant about Christianity, but that's more of a "La la la, I can't hear you crazy people" defense mechanism. See, I have read the Bible. And the Mormon Bible (Yes, I have one for record purposes). And bits of the Koran. So let me say this:

The Christian/Muslim/Jewish god is not the happy peaceful deity people make him out to be. He's an asshole who, throughout the book, condones the slaughter, enslaving, and ****** of non-Jews, curses his own "beloved" people about a dozen times, and is constantly getting pissed that people can't read his mind. Remember the plagues of Egypt? Has anyone ever realized that he didn't punish the slave-owning adults? The story has the Angel of Death slaughtering thousands of children, who couldn't help what their parents believed. Not so great, when you realize all the innocent lives that paid.

Read the Old Testament real close. Stories like that? A dime a dozen.

When you look at their Holy Book, you really can't be too surprised at what the followers do.

Oh, and Jesus wasn't too great a guy either. The story of The Good Samaritan didn't stop him from refusing help to a Samaritan woman unless she threw herself down at his feet and confessed to basically how worthless she was. Because she was Samaritan.

[Drake Dun]

Well, I don't really feel the oomph to write a proper, full response to Sternn's last post, but if I don't write something now I'll probably just let it slide, so...

In response to the poster two up from this post, I can't tell whether you are being sarcastic or sincere. If you're being sincere, you are mistaken about my opinions, and do not want me on your side. I am one of the "non-believers" you are talking about.

To get back to Sternn.

Originally Posted by CptSternn

What most westerns do not realise is Islam is not just a religion. It is a way of life. It encompasses relgion, culture, and a lifestyle choice all in one. To attack it as a 'religion', as many westerns these days try to do is to outright attack people who live in such countries. Unlike Christianity in America, where people choose it and choose to abide by (or not) the moral laws that they follow is completely different.

I could answer that in a couple of different ways. I'm not sold on the idea that Islam is somehow in some special category, but rather than argue that I guess the path I'll choose is to deny your implicit assertion that criticizing culture is off limits. I don't care whether it's religion, or culture, or politics, or whatever you want to call it. When you treat your fellow humans like shit, I get riled up.

Some aspects I might like or agree with, others not so much, but I never directly attack a race of people for their culture.

If what you mean is that I should register specific criticisms against aspects of Islam that I don't like rather than blast it with blanket accusations of insanity and such like, that's a criticism that I'm willing to take to heart. As in the case of Christianity, I sometimes get so worked up that I fire off without thinking about it.

I'll save my specific criticisms for another time, because they are legion.

I am only saying that if you post such comments here, you need to temper them with a point, not just a blatant attack on their culture/religion (i.e. your comment about Allah) else you come off as someone just adding more fuel to this growing, racist fire.

Point taken. I won't refrain from criticism or consider any topic off limits, but I can take a different approach.

The whole geshia thing? Women walking behind men (not that this is still practices as much)? Women in a sub-servant role in society in general? How many women hold high ranking positions in Japanese corporations? Women are not treated as a material object?

I assumed that we are talking about modern day Japan. The only accusation on your list that still applies, in view of my experience, is the bit about high ranking positions in Japanese corporations (as I already mentioned). That's still an immeasurably better record than the Islamic world has.

So women under Sharia law might have to wear a burka. Does that make them more repressed than ones having sex with 12 cocked aliens, wearing a horse harness, and simulating a violent r.ape?

This sounds very much like the apologetics I hear from Muslims. "We make our women do X, but you make your women do Y." Fine. Except that before we can even begin to compare being forced to do X with being forced to do Y, we need to take on board the fact that women are not being forced to do Y. Any Japanese woman involved in the production of a pornographic video can at any time say "You know what? Fuck this. See you, guys".

To use the language of the article you quoted, "There are differences between 'pressures' -- which individuals can choose to resist -- and 'oppression' -- which individuals have no power to resist."

A woman in Tokyo who chooses to dress in jeans and a tee shirt may have to deal with the fact that she won't attract as many male eyes as one who chooses what I call the "Tokyo Princess" look, but she doesn't have to worry about being thrown into the back of a police car.

There is no parity between these two approaches. Want to wear hijab in France? Knock yourself out. Want to wear a skirt in Iran? Don't even think about it.

Drake

[KontanKarite]

Agsin, Drake points out that we still have a semblance of choice moreso than the aformentioned culture.

It boils down to this. If a woman chooses to wear a bikini in Iran... Will she live to tell about it?

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

Agsin, Drake points out that we still have a semblance of choice moreso than the aformentioned culture.

It boils down to this. If a woman chooses to wear a bikini in Iran... Will she live to tell about it?

Thats still not addressing the issue.

The penalties might be a bit more strict under other cultures, but the bottom line is the same - what is acceptable and what isn't.

In many of the major beaches in Florida and Virginia they have now banned 'thong' bikinis and also have given police the power to arrest and imprison women who wear swimwear that is deemed 'too revealing'. They aren't killing them off or sentencing them to death, but the message is still the same.

The same parallels can be made with pretty much every law that people seem to attack in the Arab world. Americans, Japanese, and other cultures also have their taboos which are directly related to their religious beliefs. Violating these taboos might not carry the same penalties, but they are enforced in other cultures in the same manner and have the same effect.

At least the Arabs say 'if you do this, it's wrong, and we will punish you and possibly kill you', where as in western cultures they claim your 'free' to do whatever, oh but if you 'choose' to do this we will take all of your material possessions and throw you in jail for life.

Is that really any better?

[Delkaetre]

"At least the Arabs say 'if you do this, it's wrong, and we will punish you and possibly kill you', where as in western cultures they claim your 'free' to do whatever, oh but if you 'choose' to do this we will take all of your material possessions and throw you in jail for life.

Is that really any better?"

In the Arab countries, they'll do that if you show skin, steal a loaf of bread, consort with males despite being an unescorted unmarried woman, and more.
In the Western countries, there is still the possibility that they will punish and possibly kill you- if you break the rules. And the rules are there, and easy to find. The West isn't claiming to be an anarchistic utopia free of all rules, it simply has a lot fewer. I don't agree with its tendency to call itself 'free', but it's certainly an awful lot more free than the Muslim countries like Iran.
In the western world, the punishment of having all possessions and personal liberty taken away is only going to happen if you do one of the things it's made very clear that you are NOT free to do, such as kill someone. That's not going to happen if you wear a bikini.
If you wear a string bikini on the wrong beach and law enforcement decides to step in, you are end up being told to put on more clothing and getting the legal equivalent of a slap on the wrist. Equating this to being sentenced to lashes and possibly (probably) death is an act of such mind-numbing arrogance, stupidity or misguided intent that I find it very difficult to comprehend how you dared even draw it.
The punishments for wearing a string bikini in public reflect a certain level of conservatism, but there is a very important difference in the levels of conservatism they represent.
As a female posting in response to your frankly idiotic or at least severely misguided comments, I must say I'd far rather live in Japan or Florida than Iran. The burkha is not the liberation from objectification you're portraying it as. I have made friends with girls from Muslim countries at university, and they certainly prefer being able to wear what they wish over here instead of having to cover themselves so entirely. They know that sometimes boys look at them and see the body instead of the girl, but they were never seen as anything but objects and possessions anyway. At least this way they can choose their own personal adornment.

[Drake Dun]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Is that really any better?

Yes. Lots.

Originally Posted by Delkaetre

Equating this to being sentenced to lashes and possibly (probably) death is an act of such mind-numbing arrogance, stupidity or misguided intent that I find it very difficult to comprehend how you dared even draw it.

f(x) = prior ideological commitment + thinking in terms of sides, not principles.

Drake

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Thats still not addressing the issue.

The penalties might be a bit more strict under other cultures, but the bottom line is the same - what is acceptable and what isn't.

In many of the major beaches in Florida and Virginia they have now banned 'thong' bikinis and also have given police the power to arrest and imprison women who wear swimwear that is deemed 'too revealing'. They aren't killing them off or sentencing them to death, but the message is still the same.


Is that really any better?

Funny you should mention that. In black and white terms, they're both oppression and I agree that oppression is oppression. But here's the rub. So far as we have it, we can choose the lesser of two evils if we want to play nice with the "law". Let's see... being fined for showing off a fine ass in public.. being KILLED for showing off your bare neck in public? Hmmmm....

[CptSternn]

What your both missing is the fact that their law is directly based on their religion. To say their law is harsh is to attack their religion.

As a non-Muslim, to say you don't agree with their religion is a bias statement, when you grew up outside of their culture.

They can always leave their country - I know many men and women from Iran who live here in Ireland. They choose to leave, however many still practice their religion.

If you want to live in any part of the world, you have to follow their rules. To attack a part of the world because your culture finds their rules strange or foreign is quite ignorant.

In their minds, their laws are not harsh, and are put in place to protect their everlasting souls. When put in that context, they aren't so harsh, nor different, than other cultures.

For anyone to sit back and make comments about another's culture or religion, especially when you have never experienced it first hand and have no true concept of what they believe in or hold sacred in their hearts is very racist - even if you don't see it as such.

[Drake Dun]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

What your both missing is the fact that their law is directly based on their religion. To say their law is harsh is to attack their religion.

Well yes. As it happens, I am attacking their religion, right along with its siblings, Christianity and Judaism. That's the whole point.

As a non-Muslim, to say you don't agree with their religion is a bias statement, when you grew up outside of their culture.

You appear to be using the word "bias" in some sense I am not familiar with, but I can already tell that after clarification my response would probably be "Tough cookies." I do not accept this principle you propose that Islam is off limits to criticism by non-Muslims (I guess that is what you were saying after all). You haven't even forwarded an argument in support of it. You simply repeat it as if it goes without saying. It doesn't.

Actually, I'm shocked and disgusted that you could even say such a thing in seriousness. That kind of dialog wrecking, status quo humping, intellectual self abnegation always plays into the hands of authority and the nastiest, most power hungry party at the table. It's highly unbecoming in a person who fancies himself a dissident or champion of the oppressed.

They can always leave their country - I know many men and women from Iran who live here in Ireland. They choose to leave, however many still practice their religion.

And if they want to wear hijab and prostrate themselves facing a certain direction several times a day, they'll get no gruff from me. It's the attitude that everyone else should be forced to follow suit that I will not countenance.

Of course, the domineering attitude that characterizes many forms of Islam is no cooincidence. You can only sell a drastic and needless curtailment of personal freedom like that when you can pull everyone within your tyranical dragnet. Otherwise the ones who don't play ball are a continual reminder to the rest of what they're missing (basic self respect and human dignity), and it erodes your edifice of misanthropic hegemony.

That's the reason there's a genuine rift between the two approaches that will not simply go away because we ignore it, and can't be bridged with platitudinous appeals to "tolerance". With Islam, it really is their way or the highway. To give credit where credit is due, they are perfectly lucid on this point. They do not dissemble. That may make Islamism an honorable enemy, but it still makes it an enemy against we are justified in defending ourselves.

The same way they are justified in defending themselves when we invade one of their countries on a transparent pretext for the purpose of serving rank self interest.

For anyone to sit back and make comments about another's culture or religion, especially when you have never experienced it first hand and have no true concept of what they believe in or hold sacred in their hearts is very racist - even if you don't see it as such.

Again, race is not an issue. I would appreciate it if you were a little more precise with your word choice. Eventually I will be forced to conclude that you are deliberately mischaracterizing my position.

Drake