EBM is not goth.

[Bete Noire]

This could probably have been put in Whining, but given that I wanted to start a discussion, rather than just rant, I thought it could go here.

EBM is nothing like goth. I'm interested in how it became so big in the goth scene that EBM is played more than goth rock in goth clubs.

I don't know how it came to be associated with it. Goth is a style of music that, whilst diverse, does have boundaries. You compare Dieche with Bela Lugosi's Dead with Nine While Nine with Moonchild. Big differences, but with recurring themes. Lyrically, goth seems to be introspective, sometimes morbid, sometimes dealing with the occult etc. Also jangly guitars are common, with delay/reverb/chorus/ light overdrive used a lot. The bass tends to be fairly prominent, as does the tribal drumming. Vocal styles are usually clean (ie no distortion) with the exception of a few. The delivery is also generally unusual (Think Andi Sexgang or Carl McCoy) but often band-specific. Although there are a lot of Eldritch-clones around.


EBM has very different characteristics. The lyrics are less subtle, less creative
("It's like a maggot

Digging in a rotten brain

It's like a leech

Suck my blood

Demented serpents

Coming to infact the brain")
The beats are processed, usually a drum machine. This was unusual in goth until SOM and March Violets started. There is a great deal of synth sounds used in place of real instruments. The overall sound is much more noise-for-the-sake-noise-ish.
Also, creativity seems to be very optional. Half the bands sound identical.

To be honest, I don't know half as much about EBM as I do about goth, but I thought this could be an interesting discussion.

Also, I do listen to some EBM, I just think it's a little odd that it's so associated with goth.

It doesn't seem any more related than Manson.

[Raptor]

Mmm. I don't know really, I like both too. I listen to more EBM in clubs than when I listen to my own music, but that might be partly because the club I go to here plays far more EBM than goth. Though it is also because I do like EBM in clubs.

I have no idea why its associated, but a lot of bands I listen to came from reading on here so its always been together when I've seen it. I assume clubs play EBM to get a bigger crowd?

[Wednesday Friday Addams]

Thats nice want a cookie?

[Raptor]

Yes please

[JCC]

Goth's an expansive culture. EBM is not Goth music per se. But it's the same as how Tom Waits is huge in Metal circles. Completely unrelated, but still appreciated.

Plus, I think EBM is a lot more suited to clubs than Goth Rock.

[Raptor]

EBM is closer to the music in "normal" clubs. Some of it could work in a normal club if the lyrics were toned down a bit.

[Bete Noire]

Originally Posted by JCC

Plus, I think EBM is a lot more suited to clubs than Goth Rock.

I think that depends what sort of atmosphere you want from a club. EBM would be very similar to a non-goth club or whatever, but stuff like ASF, or Cruxshadows or anything like that would be danceable.

I guess it's a matter of taste.

[Anti-Mindvirus]

Originally Posted by JCC

Goth's an expansive culture. EBM is not Goth music per se. But it's the same as how Tom Waits is huge in Metal circles. Completely unrelated, but still appreciated.

Plus, I think EBM is a lot more suited to clubs than Goth Rock.

Fuckin' a! I love Tom Waits...

[Haunted House]

When it comes to clubs, EBM is a smarter choice to draw a crowd. It's also a matter of geographical location. EBM is more popular in some cities and goth moreso in others.

I personally think that a club that would play goth rock/deathrock would be more interesting, not only because I like it better, but because it's all so diverse (with boundries, like you said, Bete). With the pounding beats of EBM theres only so much you can do and it's that pounding that you mainly hear. Hearing bands like Sex Gang Children, Alien Sex Fiend, Bauhaus, 45 Grave, Ausgang, Cinema Strange, (Southern) Death Cult, Screams for Tina, Theatre of Hate, The Naked and the Dead, X-Mal Deautschland, and Frank the Baptist all in a row would ensure a lot of fun because they're all so different, but are still goth. The same "Boom Boom Boom" beats playing so frequently in the groups they play at EBM clubs, to me, would get kinda boring.

[badteccy]

Haven't we been over this, a LOT?

[Clockwork]

It seems to defeat the purpose, not playing goth music at a goth club for the sake of attracting more people... then again, no one likes a club out of business, either.

I think it's just a matter of living in the right place :/

[viscus]

Originally Posted by JCC

But it's the same as how Tom Waits is huge in Metal circles.

I thought he was big in Goth circles too. Just what does he do anyway? "Avant Garde-Vaudeville-Blues-Americana" I guess.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. The cross-pollination of Goth and Industrial cultures happened sometime in the 90's with the advent of Nine Inch Nails and all the sound-alikes. That's where all the "cybergoth" nonsense comes from.

If your in the LA area, checkout Eternal in Chinatown every second Saturday. The main room is all Goth and Deathrock, with all of the cyber off in a smaller side room.

[Cicero]

I am in total agreement with Bete Noire and Haunted House on this.

In the Melbourne scene the "EBM gothic? Wtf?" debate has been going on for years. When some people decided to start a fully tradgoth and deathrock club which banned EBM and industrial they were laughed at and barely anyone thought it could possibly succeed.

Well it did succeed, immensely. A packed dancefloor is the norm, and the most popular DJ specialises in gothic rock with a touch of new wave (Adam and the Ants, Gary Numan, Soft Cell, etc... it all fits in well). It's also set to start playing a lot more deathrock with DJ's Cicero and Bat Brains on the decks, muahaha.

So yes, gothic rock is no less danceable than EBM, people just need to give it a chance. In fact I find EBM extremely un-danceable, and reckon it turns any supposed 'goth club' into what's basically just a normal club with a bit of extra PVC.

I could rant for hours on this, but I have a movie to go to. I'LL BE BACK!

[Lex]

As a big fan of bleepy-music I'm going to try and offer some input from a different perspective...

Honestly, EBM can be quite varied. You get soft, melodic EBM with sounds reminiscent of Depeche Mode, and then you get the harsh, high-distortion 'noise' music which only starts to sound reasonable if you've popped a load of pills. :P

Much of the lyrics still carry many of the dark, introspective qualities characterised by goth lyrics - just take a look at Assemblage23 or VNV Nation. Though the lyrical quality tends to degrade as the music becomes more dance-oriented (Combichrist and Reaper lyrics are inane, but that music is MADE for dancing to). It doesn't help that a lot of EBM originates from European bands with an often dismal grasp of the English language.

I think the major difference is this: EBM is chiefly aimed at clubbers, whereas you can't say that about Goth. That's not to say goth rock can't or shouldn't be played in clubs, far from it, but overall my impression is that most people find repetitive electronic beats much more suitable for dancing to.

Personally, I could happily bounce around a club to EBM for 8 hours, and I don't think I could do that for any other type of music. But to each his own, eh? ;)

Lex

[KontanKarite]

Well, I'll simply say, let EBM sell itself.

If you're running a pure EBM night at a club, you're lying your ass off if you claim it's a goth night.

Other than that, I don't really mind EBM. Just when they use a word such as "goth" to draw in a crowd because people are too dumb not to go to an EBM night.

[CptSternn]

There was no EBM when the goth scene first emerged. Bands like Apoptygma Berserk, Spahn Ranch, and others were all part of the same scene. They toured alongside bands like Death In June and Black Tape For A Blue Girl.

They all shared the same labels.

It was only years later when people wanted to start breaking down the genre into sub-genres.

Much like techno. It used to be all 'techno'. Now you have house, acid house, miami club, jungle, etc.

To say EBM is not goth is a pretty silly comment if you know the roots of the genre.

Also, you can't have a goth night with just the dark-n-dreary standard goth music. You have to mix it up with some tracks that cross boundaries and also fill the dance floor.

[Bete Noire]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

There was no EBM when the goth scene first emerged. Bands like Apoptygma Berserk, Spahn Ranch, and others were all part of the same scene. They toured alongside bands like Death In June and Black Tape For A Blue Girl.

They all shared the same labels.

It was only years later when people wanted to start breaking down the genre into sub-genres.

Much like techno. It used to be all 'techno'. Now you have house, acid house, miami club, jungle, etc.

To say EBM is not goth is a pretty silly comment if you know the roots of the genre.

Also, you can't have a goth night with just the dark-n-dreary standard goth music. You have to mix it up with some tracks that cross boundaries and also fill the dance floor.

I was referring more to the 90's and more modern brand of EBM. To say EBM is goth seems a little like saying goth is indie because they both take influence from post-punk.

[Mr. Ed]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

There was no EBM when the goth scene first emerged. Bands like Apoptygma Berserk, Spahn Ranch, and others were all part of the same scene. They toured alongside bands like Death In June and Black Tape For A Blue Girl.

They all shared the same labels.

It was only years later when people wanted to start breaking down the genre into sub-genres.

Much like techno. It used to be all 'techno'. Now you have house, acid house, miami club, jungle, etc.

To say EBM is not goth is a pretty silly comment if you know the roots of the genre.

Also, you can't have a goth night with just the dark-n-dreary standard goth music. You have to mix it up with some tracks that cross boundaries and also fill the dance floor.

"Silly comment if you don't know the roots of the genre"?
Pretty sure Front 242 were not goth.

[Draconysius]

It's really annoying. Of course, goth did draw influences from early industrial (noise, tape-loops, etc.), but what people are mistaking for industrial nowadays is completely different. Heh... It's also quite pathetic to see EBM bands covering gothic rock bands in an attempt to gain credibility.

[Lauren]

Originally Posted by Bete Noire

EBM is nothing like goth. I'm interested in how it became so big in the goth scene that EBM is played more than goth rock in goth clubs.

It's b/c all the ravers went goth. not trying to "dis" anyone but it's true.

p.s. i luv raver shoes teehee SWEEEEEEAAAAAARS!!!!!

[I Am Great.]

I'll say it again, goth music is whatever goths listen to.

[killer_asian_Dax]

Originally Posted by Lauren

It's b/c all the ravers went goth. not trying to "dis" anyone but it's true.

p.s. i luv raver shoes teehee SWEEEEEEAAAAAARS!!!!!

No, it's not true.

"Swears"

And what exactly would you classify as "raver shoes"?

[viscus]

Originally Posted by I Am Great.

I'll say it again, goth music is whatever goths listen to.

And again you're wrong. Being a fan of Goth music defines one as a Goth, not the other way around.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by Bete Noire

I was referring more to the 90's and more modern brand of EBM. To say EBM is goth seems a little like saying goth is indie because they both take influence from post-punk.

The bands you are labeling 'EBM' existed before the sub-genre of 'EBM', and 'Indy'. They existed before and were lumped with and toured with many goth bands on goth labels.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by Mr. Ed

"Silly comment if you don't know the roots of the genre"?
Pretty sure Front 242 were not goth.

Check out their early albums and their labels. They are on labels with goth bands, promoted by goths, and play on goth tours of goth clubs.