"Liberal" people.

[Serephurus]

Originally Posted by TheBloodEternity

Sorry for the extremely late post, but: Bullshit. I go to a school with uniforms and the playing field is in no way level. The rich kids are still shallow conceited whores and a polo shirt and khakis don't change shit. Uniforms don't cover over how much money someone has. The poor kids will still have wal-mart khaki's and the rich kids will still have khakis from American Eagle. Rich people will still have expensive shoes and jewelry. Rich people will still be stuck-up and ignorant and all hang out in their little cliques. Vaguely masking over something is not the same as simplifying.
I'd also like to point out the fact that, at least in a public school setting, forcing expensive uniforms upon poor people so that their kids won't be picked on is the most ignorant thing I've ever heard.

I agree to that, but I just believe that schools should provide uniforms if uniforms are forced upon students. I believe they should all be high-quality as not to hurt self-esteem and be nice looking, but have a distinctive style.

How are uniforms liberal? I thought they were conservative...

Also, communism in itself is not bad, it's when someone is corrupted by absolute power that turns it into an evil system. Also conservatives are taking AWAY freedoms in the name of religion/Christianity.

[TheBloodEternity]

Yeah, they should. I don't really mind wearing them, but the explanation of "it's to keep the rich kids from picking on the poor" pisses me off beyond belief.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Serephurus

Also, communism in itself is not bad, it's when someone is corrupted by absolute power that turns it into an evil system. Also conservatives are taking AWAY freedoms in the name of religion/Christianity.

No, they're not. They're taking away freedoms in an effort to keep the people from marching and revolting like they did in the 60s, all the while, making record fucking profits off of overpriced oil and selling the American people out for cheap slave labor in sweatshops in third world countries.

Originally Posted by TheBloodEternity

Yeah, they should. I don't really mind wearing them, but the explanation of "it's to keep the rich kids from picking on the poor" pisses me off beyond belief.

You honestly think that free uniforms provided by the government would make a damn bit of difference? You think that would change anything at all? What is a poor kid going to do when a rich kid finds out the truth? What's next in the name of protecting the poor? Banning fraternization?

[Technowitch]

That would be the only thing left, unless one actually advocates redistribution of wealth. That concept...doesn't really sit right with me. Even if they only earned it through lucky stock breaks or inheirited it from mommy and daddy, a person's money is his/her own; beyond their fair share of taxes, it's theirs to do with as they will and no one else has a right to it--to say nothing of the people who busted their asses to get to where they are.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Technowitch

That would be the only thing left, unless one actually advocates redistribution of wealth. That concept...doesn't really sit right with me. Even if they only earned it through lucky stock breaks or inheirited it from mommy and daddy, a person's money is his/her own; beyond their fair share of taxes, it's theirs to do with as they will and no one else has a right to it--to say nothing of the people who busted their asses to get to where they are.

A friend once said, a rich man has the right to do as he will with his money. But the rich man has a DUTY to give back to the community that got him where he is today.

Now weather we both agree with that or not, I don't know. I still wonder about it and I still think it's more or less a benevolent thing to do more so than anything.

[TheBloodEternity]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

You honestly think that free uniforms provided by the government would make a damn bit of difference? You think that would change anything at all? What is a poor kid going to do when a rich kid finds out the truth? What's next in the name of protecting the poor? Banning fraternization?

...What? I'm saying if a school absolutely feels the need to enforce uniforms, they shouldn't make the poor people pay for them.As I said already, we have uniforms at my school and I can pick out the rich kids from the poor, it's pretty transparent, and I never said that poor kids should be protected. Read my other post.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by TheBloodEternity

...What? I'm saying if a school absolutely feels the need to enforce uniforms, they shouldn't make the poor people pay for them.As I said already, we have uniforms at my school and I can pick out the rich kids from the poor, it's pretty transparent, and I never said that poor kids should be protected. Read my other post.

I know. That part of my post was rather rhetorical. It wasn't meant to be taken as a jab at you. I agree with you completely that it's a silly idea.

[Technowitch]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

A friend once said, a rich man has the right to do as he will with his money. But the rich man has a DUTY to give back to the community that got him where he is today.

Now weather we both agree with that or not, I don't know. I still wonder about it and I still think it's more or less a benevolent thing to do more so than anything.

Oh, charity's great and I fully encourage it; I just don't think anyone should be forced to give their income away just because someone else might get their feelings hurt because they aren't as wealthy. A person's only monetary "duty" to the community is to pay their own taxes, bills, and debts. To do anything less is to be a drain on the community's financial and social resources.

[TheBloodEternity]

Okay then, my apologies for the misunderstanding.

[Methadrine]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

A friend once said, a rich man has the right to do as he will with his money. But the rich man has a DUTY to give back to the community that got him where he is today.

Now weather we both agree with that or not, I don't know. I still wonder about it and I still think it's more or less a benevolent thing to do more so than anything.

You might want to read Ayn Rand's 'The fountainhead' or 'Atlas Shrugged'. She has some interesting views on this subject.

Once we grew tired of the water we lay on the beach and I was blown away by what I saw and it wasn’t nature.

[Wednesday Friday Addams]

anarcho-communism would like to say Hello!

[shogem]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

No, they're not. They're taking away freedoms in an effort to keep the people from marching and revolting like they did in the 60s, all the while, making record fucking profits off of overpriced oil and selling the American people out for cheap slave labor in sweatshops in third world countries.

--

You honestly think that free uniforms provided by the government would make a damn bit of difference? You think that would change anything at all? What is a poor kid going to do when a rich kid finds out the truth? What's next in the name of protecting the poor? Banning fraternization?

You, good sir/lady (I don't know which, please forgive), are awesome. I'd like to add to this conversation but you say it quite well already.

[Wormboy]

Sir. A very fine Sir.

[GothicChristian]

Originally Posted by Methadrine

You might want to read Ayn Rand's 'The fountainhead' or 'Atlas Shrugged'. She has some interesting views on this subject.

I loved Atlas Shrugged

[Megansmom]

Okay here's my opinion in all of this. Liberalism leads to fascism. And fascism leads to either a depressed society or a revolution.More than likely both.
As far as the school uniforms go you have my opinion on that already. However, the planned " uniform " has changed. Originally we were just going to go for a revolutionary style out fit now we are considering doing a third reicht uniform . Hell , all Hitler was doing was trying to make it a fair playing field for everyone and weed out the unfit. ( This is being said with loads of sarcasm. ) and that's why they're doing the uniforms to make the playing field more fair.
Heck , my son and I am so proud of him, is even more pissed than we are over this. Instead of his normal fummm you and walking away when any one push him into something he doesn't believe in is actually wanting a uniform like that to.( He's a man of few words. He gets straight to the point unlike his crazy ass mom and sister.)
Her assistant principle has asked me to ask her to keep her outrageous opinions to herself they are not welcome at the school.( She doesn't believe in political correctness ) to remember that she needs to comport herself in a manner that doesn't bother the other students and the teacher by asking a million questions . They are there to teach her what they feel she needs to know .
Not a cool move. The school uniform issue was bad enough but now they want me to tell her she can't have an opinion? That she can't question what they are trying to teach her especially when it's loaded with the teachers beliefs? She has to accept that they know better than her because they say so
(My fault. I taught her to question everything, to look at both sides and find her own answer. )
This is what the liberal school system is trying to put a stop to in reality. They are trying to teach kids to stop thinking on their own and only think what they are told to think. Uniforms in high school is just one more step towards this.
Dress the same as everyone else and no one will no pick on you. Every one will be equals because we'll all be dressed alike. You'll learn more because you won't be focused on what Jane is wearing. You'll look so professional in these out fits and let's not forget school spirit. Hurrah
In the words of one of my favorite shows: BULLSHIT.
You don't stop envy, peer pressure, or social division by changing clothes. You don't teach the kids to deal with these issues either by doing that. You create a bunch of emotionally inept people who are incapable of dealing with real life. Real life is not fair and is full of social diversity and some of it is good and some of it is bad.
It's not the governments job to provide the uniforms for the school by the way. They get and waste way to much of my money now as it is.
Another topic for another day.
Anyways ,I had better shut my rant up. I've probably pissed a few people off .But that's a beautiful thing. I was taught to have an opinion not be given one.

[Technowitch]

...Okay, did you just compare liberal politics to Hitler? Hello, Godwin's Law!

All jokes aside, fascism and liberalism have little in common. Fascism is a form of extreme social and corporate conservatism that forces a conformity of expression, thought, and action.

From dictionary.com:
fas·cism Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fash-iz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. (sometimes initial capital letter) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.
2. (sometimes initial capital letter) the philosophy, principles, or methods of fascism.
3. (initial capital letter) a fascist movement, esp. the one established by Mussolini in Italy 1922–43.

lib·er·al·ism Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[lib-er-uh-liz-uhm, lib-ruh-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. the quality or state of being liberal, as in behavior or attitude.
2. a political or social philosophy advocating the freedom of the individual, parliamentary systems of government, nonviolent modification of political, social, or economic institutions to assure unrestricted development in all spheres of human endeavor, and governmental guarantees of individual rights and civil liberties.
3. (sometimes initial capital letter) the principles and practices of a liberal party in politics.
4. a movement in modern Protestantism that emphasizes freedom from tradition and authority, the adjustment of religious beliefs to scientific conceptions, and the development of spiritual capacities.

Yes, school uniforms are stupid. Yes, it's completely wrong that teachers can get away with spewing their (often toxic) political bullshit in the classrooms without being able to question them in school. Yes, public smoking bans and legally monitored calorie/portion rations are idiotic wastes of people's time and money. But you know what? You are not being blocked from discussing and complaining about these things. You can write to your state representatives, your governor, your mayor, your city council, the president, the editor of the local newspaper, and your grandmother to bitch and moan and demand that something be done about it. You can draft up a petition and get signatures. You can organize protests and run non-profit advocacy groups. You can and are encouraged to influence the political process. That's what it means to be part of a liberalist government, and guess what? You wouldn't be able to do any of that under a facist government.

Think about things before you say/type them.

[Apathy's_Child]

Originally Posted by Technowitch

...Okay, did you just compare liberal politics to Hitler? Hello, Godwin's Law!

All jokes aside, fascism and liberalism have little in common. Fascism is a form of extreme social and corporate conservatism that forces a conformity of expression, thought, and action.

Actually, I think she's got a point if you look at extreme communism and fascism. In their moderate forms and in terms of their general definitions they have very little in common, but it's possible to be so left you're right. Look at China.

[Splintered]

In their extreme terms, fascism and communism look nothing alike.

Communism, in the extreme, is focused on class equality, widespread social programs, a lack of central leadership, and a focus on revolution.

Fascism, in the extreme, is focused on class or racial superiority, widespread corporate support, a strong central dictator, and a focus on preserving tradition.

[Godslayer Jillian]

How does liberalism lead to fascism?

[Tam Li Hua]

[I know I'm way behind on this, but thought I'd give my thoughts anyways.]

I can be liberal, and still tell you that I'm straight, that I'm white, and that I love my boyfriend. Being liberal has nothing to do with those other things, so why it would bother you that one would say something like that seems a bit silly to me. *shrug* Why get so hot and bothered over something so minor? After all, if we were having this conversation in person, it would be obvious what we are so...why -not- clarify?

Pure silliness, I say.

[JCC]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

How does liberalism lead to fascism?

Because someone on the internet said it does.

[Megansmom]

Actually, I did compare our liberal politics to Hitler. Hitler did do a lot of good before his true colors came out and he did on the backs of the disgruntled and religious conservatives. He united Germany when they in the thralls of decline, he started major social programs such as a pension for the elderly and free medical care for all. He made and passed laws for the good of all.He started the Hitler Youth which was almost like the boyscouts for young men.
However ,in the end nobody was allowed to say anything against him, disallowed any lifestyles he didn't approve of, discouraged religion, and encouraged hate. He became so power hungry he forgot everything else even about his people.
Look at the leaders some of our politicians are embracing now. That guy in Iran who has said he wants to kill us and the women in his country have no rights, Castro who has suppressed his people to the point the risk death to leave, Chavis who just passed a law in his country that now makes it mandatory for for everyone to spy on thier neighbors, just to name a few problems.
That's pretty much where our society is heading. You can only think what your told or your a friggin idiot or troublemaker, you can't believe in God in public without ridicule, it's okay to bash white men but whoa be unto you if you find fault in a minority group or women, you can not smoke it's bad for you nor can you eat this or that it's bad for you. WE are the government we alone can take care of you because you don't how.
That's how liberalism leads to fascism because nobody knows when to stop and nobody wants to see it coming till it's too late. In their wanting to please everyone and embrace all they forget everything the one thing that is most important freedom and personal resposibility.

[Technowitch]

Hitler didn't "forget" anything; his anti-Semetic, racist, nationalist stance was part of who he was. He didn't discourage religion in general, he discouraged Judaism--and he did it violently, through systematic genocide. Sorry, but there's still no comparison between liberal politics (even when taken to idiotic extremes) and Nazi fascism.

That guy in Iran who has said he wants to kill us and the women in his country have no rights

Iranian law actually has a basis in conservative Islamic law, from what I understand. Woefully misinterpreted Islamic law, at that; in the Koran, women could own property, seek a divorce, and provide legal testimony in court (though their share of property and legal weight were considerably lesser than that of their male peers, and they would have to prove infidelity or extreme abuse on the part of their husbands before a divorce would be granted), while in Iran they can't even get a driver's license or drive without risking jail time. That has nothing to do with liberal politics, part of which are women's issues and rights.

Castro who has suppressed his people to the point the risk death to leave

Communism only works on paper and (in rare cases) tiny hippy communes. As a form of government in the real world, it breaks down because it still relies upon the old method of a select few representing and ruling the whole. Just like any other form of government, communist systems are prone to abuse and corruption.

Chavis who just passed a law in his country that now makes it mandatory for for everyone to spy on thier neighbors, just to name a few problems

...Kind of like conservative Republicans are urging people to do here in the U.S. right now?

You can only think what your told or your a friggin idiot or troublemaker

Another trait that is found in conservative politics and society. It's just a general pain-in-the-ass human trait. Ignore it and move on, honey, because it's going to pop up regardless of the times, environment, and dominant political policies.

you can't believe in God in public without ridicule

You don't get out much, do you? Either you're complaining about what you see on the Interwebs (which does have a high concentration of liberal bloggers and alternative religion and lifestyle sites), or you're bitching about how teachers can't hold prayer sessions in schools. Walking around in the real world, you'll find that things are a bit more Christian-friendly than you seem to believe; indeed, in many places you're likely to get a lecture if you display any tendencies towards non-Christian religions by someone attempting to "save" you. The "No prayer in school" business is part of the separation of church and state: publicly funded institutions should not endorse, or even appear to endorse, any one relgion, and there's simply not enough time in the school day to make sure everyone is represented. Some schools get around it by instituting a brief moment of silence before announcements each morning, allowing students of all stripes--even atheists--to pray, meditate, or just contemplate their navels.

it's okay to bash white men but whoa be unto you if you find fault in a minority group or women

Maybe it's just my location, but I find that it's far more common to hear racist or sexist jokes and commentary. Also, look at advertising; women's bodies are used to sell products, and the bulk of ads are primed for the white male gaze. Western culture is white male culture.

Trust me, white men are not some oppressed, endangered species. They've gotten along fine thus far, and they'll get along quite well in the future.

That's how liberalism leads to fascism because nobody knows when to stop and nobody wants to see it coming till it's too late.

So...liberalism is fascist because liberal politics generally embrace a nonviolent process of changing laws and social mores to ensure the civil rights of all citizens, regardless of ethnicity, sex, gender identity, political leaning, sexuality, socio-economic class, and religious affiliation? You learn something new everyday.

In their wanting to please everyone and embrace all they forget everything the one thing that is most important freedom and personal resposibility.

Freedom and personal responsibility also fall by the wayside in face of extreme conservativism. It's not strictly a "liberal" thing.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Megansmom, you failed to mention one single fascist in your argument.
And the logic behind the Hitler part... I don't know if laugh or feel offended.