"It's not a big deal"

[gothicusmaximus]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

I apologize if I actually have, but I'm pretty sure I have never blamed businesses here.
Haven't I been talking about society this whole time?
It sounds ludicrous to me that someone would have inferred from what I said that I blame businesses for promoting standards beneficial to them while the rest of society wants change.
No; it seems pretty obvious that if businesses to this, it is because society accepts this. Does that mean if society accepts something it is right?

I see I misunderstood you. In your initial reply to Tam Li Hua, I thought you were relating contemporary commercials to overt bigotry, rather than stating that in a racist society advertisements for products 'too good for n.iggers' would be accepted. I extrapolated from the idea that you were asserting businesses to be more racist than the average man that you believed them to be culpable for the problem.

[Wormboy]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

This is precisely why I made this thread. Not to speak about discrimination, but to speak about this particular attitude, and I think no one has.
Just tell me this: If a commercial announced "our product is so good that we don't sell it to n.iggers" and that sells, would you not care?

I'm pretty sure you would. But you don't see the one I first mentioned "as a big deal" because you're used to it.

There's also the reverse of that in commercials though, isn't there? I see a lot of commercials trying so hard to not seem judgmental that they make themselves look absurd.
How many groups of people have you seen that have the exact same number of black people, white people, hispanic people, asian people, and middle eastern people, and then one of each gender?

Or the commercials that try to appease one minority group just to avoid those "civil rights groups". So in any given scene in an american company talkign about diversity, at least 1/3 people are black, even though only 12% of the country is black.

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

This is precisely why I made this thread. Not to speak about discrimination, but to speak about this particular attitude, and I think no one has.
Just tell me this: If a commercial announced "our product is so good that we don't sell it to n.iggers" and that sells, would you not care?

I'm pretty sure you would. But you don't see the one I first mentioned "as a big deal" because you're used to it.

My dear, you are taking my words far too far out of context. :/

I am not saying that commercials should do whatever they like. What I -am- saying is that businesses sell to whoever happens to buy the most of their product. And, whether you like it or not, the majority of people who are out buying the cleaning supplies -are- women, thus why such products are directed towards women.

This does NOT mean that they don't want men to buy them; in fact, I'm sure that Mr. Clean Inc. is happy no matter what gender buys their product. [In these ads, by the way, my dear, men are not being excluded. I've yet to see a commercial for Brawni that says "This product is great, so you should buy it for your man! "

I can admire that you want equality, I really can, but I think you are just going about it the wrong way and are directing your energy at the wrong thing. If you want equality, then write letters, head up campaigns, and get out there and do something about the problems. [That is, if the problems are actually there.]

If you work towards the goal of getting folks to be more equally-minded...or at least try to convince men to buy more cleaning products and convince women to barbecue more...then the commercials will naturally change to reflect that.

Remember: Commercials are a reflection of what society in general is like. You may not like the way society is, but you should do more to try and change people's minds in a non-hostile way than just posting here; get involved with your local community, and find ways to help people think differently.

Peace and Love to you all! ^_^

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

That's in no way comparable. Commercials of the kind you're addressing are saying "this product will most probably appeal to this type of person, and we recognize that", not "only this type of person is allowed to buy this product" or "this type of person is better than other types of people".

This, in a nutshell, is exactly my point. ]

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

Remember: Commercials are a reflection of what society in general is like.

You are repeating the same thing I have already addressed.
Commercials aren't allowed to do whatever they like? Why not?
It's entirely arbitrary that you want to draw a line when you said "business is business"

Read gothicusmaximus' post above. If what sold was saying "our product was so good we won't even sell it to n.iggers", then why do you see a problem with that one, but not in assuming gender roles to sell?
Both, like you said, are reflections of respective societies, which furthers my argument.

[Tea and Cake or Death]

9 times out of 10 I hate shit in commercials, so I don't even watch them. I don't even remember the last time a commercial had an impact on me. OH WAIT! Yes I do! I was little and I wanted to score some Breakfast with Barbie Cereal.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by Wormboy

That, my dear, is a MASSIVE if.





IF


Like so

Did you need to say that?
You just contributed nothing.

[Noirette]

Dosen't it change?

Can one person change an entire society?

[JCC]

Originally Posted by Noirette

Dosen't it change?

Can one person change an entire society?

I think I already covered this somewhere else.

In short; fuck pessimism.

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

You are repeating the same thing I have already addressed.
Commercials aren't allowed to do whatever they like? Why not?
It's entirely arbitrary that you want to draw a line when you said "business is business"

Read gothicusmaximus' post above. If what sold was saying "our product was so good we won't even sell it to n.iggers", then why do you see a problem with that one, but not in assuming gender roles to sell?
Both, like you said, are reflections of respective societies, which furthers my argument.

I have already addressed this. Please respond to the rest of what I said instead of saying the same thing over again.

Most women are likely to buy perfume. Most little boys are likely to be interested in Hot Wheels. Most men like barbecue and to watch the game on TV.

But Most =/= All. If you want a personal example that explains further, then here's this: From the time I was in the seventh grade all the girls in my class except me were obsessed with hair, make-up, and boys. Me personally, none of those things interested me. Nowadays, I'm older, and I can appreciate that most women like make-up and doing their hair, and I can now understand the obsession with boys, since I have a boyfriend myself. I still do not like make-up for myself or going through the effort of doing my hair, but I can accept and even admire that others are. I can even accept that some men are more interested in these things than I am.

Given that, though, I am not at all offended when I see a make-up or a Pantene commercial with glamorous supermodels. I know that it's all just glam, that the product isn't going to turn me into a supermodel, and that not everyone that sees that ad and goes to the Maybelene counter is going to look anything like that woman.

My point is, you've got to pick your fights. If this commercial thing honestly bothers you, then do something about it. Start a campaign, a webpage, a movement of some kind demanding equal ad time for different folks in different sorts of commercials.

Me personally, I think I'll continue with the not being offended by them, but mostly because I hate commercials in general, and I have TiVo so that I don't have to watch them at all.

[Tam Li Hua]

By the way, Jilly, I -did- read gothicus' response, and responded to it.

[KontanKarite]

So Tam opts out to be indifferent.

Anyway, I'm all for tearing down arbitrary social norms. Where do I begin to help?

[Godslayer Jillian]

This thread is honestly pissing me off.
It's not just you, Tam Li Hua, but I'm going to quote you on something because it applies to everyone in this thread:

My point is, you've got to pick your fights. If this commercial thing honestly bothers you

It doesn't bother me as much as you all make it look.
This thread wasn't about stupid commercials!
It's about how people are too idiotic sometimes to understand the fucking context, as this thread shows.

I mention in a casual conversation that hierarchies and gender roles are evident in commercials, and people tell me it's not a big deal, as if what I'm talking about is effect, rather than cause.
That's what you all that are on that side of the argument I didn't even postulate say.

But the other people with my same opinion; they're pissing me off too. They might have my same opinion, but they are talking about something I didn't want to start. I don't fucking care if people speak about how they're atheists too when the things I said is that most teenagers annoy me. Those topic don't have any link!


So, fine, keep talking about my example rather than my topic. Hopefully at least you'll be consistent and not arbitrary.
But this thread will continue to piss me off because I was talking about people that give a dead end to a conversation by the phrase "it's not a big deal", and my topic was given a dead end at the first responses by giving all the attention to one example and then the other.

[KontanKarite]

Just because society has accustomed itself to certain values doesn't make them right.

I actually thought this WAS the point of the thread. If not, then I suppose I was too slow to catch on.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

So, fine, keep talking about my example rather than my topic. Hopefully at least you'll be consistent and not arbitrary.
But this thread will continue to piss me off because I was talking about people that give a dead end to a conversation by the phrase "it's not a big deal", and my topic was given a dead end at the first responses by giving all the attention to one example and then the other.

I think the problem is that the example riles people up more than the topic.
I mean, it doesn't irritate me that much when people do that kind of thing because it doesn't happen to me that often. I try not to talk to people who just don't give a shit about anything, or people who just end conversations with phrases like that simply because they're bored and the conversation doesn't have enough explosions.

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

So Tam opts out to be indifferent.

Anyway, I'm all for tearing down arbitrary social norms. Where do I begin to help?

I guess I'm a bit different. I don't want to tear down a social norm just because it isn't a norm. I need to be convinced by reasonable means...and not just emotional outbursts...that whatever it is that's being fought against is worth the effort.

For instance, I believe that fighting poverty and hunger, both here and overseas, to be immensely important. I also find it important for people to respect each other despite any differences, but to also see that just because someone is different than me doesn't mean they deserve my ridicule.

You folks seem to think that things like unfair discrimination aren't important to me when the opposite is true; these things are deeply important to me. However, I -do- feel that Jilly's example falls short of what she actually wants to talk about.

My view is this: You have to change the view of society in general before you can change the view that is expressed in the media in general. As it is, here in the states we have WAY more freedom from discrimination than in a lot of other places.

These are my thoughts. May I ask what is wrong with them precisely?

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

This thread is honestly pissing me off.
It's not just you, Tam Li Hua, but I'm going to quote you on something because it applies to everyone in this thread:

It doesn't bother me as much as you all make it look.
This thread wasn't about stupid commercials!
It's about how people are too idiotic sometimes to understand the fucking context, as this thread shows.

I mention in a casual conversation that hierarchies and gender roles are evident in commercials, and people tell me it's not a big deal, as if what I'm talking about is effect, rather than cause.
That's what you all that are on that side of the argument I didn't even postulate say.

But the other people with my same opinion; they're pissing me off too. They might have my same opinion, but they are talking about something I didn't want to start. I don't fucking care if people speak about how they're atheists too when the things I said is that most teenagers annoy me. Those topic don't have any link!


So, fine, keep talking about my example rather than my topic. Hopefully at least you'll be consistent and not arbitrary.
But this thread will continue to piss me off because I was talking about people that give a dead end to a conversation by the phrase "it's not a big deal", and my topic was given a dead end at the first responses by giving all the attention to one example and then the other.

May I suggest, then, that the next time you wish to post, that you read over what you type -before- you post it, and make sure that others will be able to understand what you wish to discuss?

As it is, I think that getting "pissed off" when you were the one who was unclear in the beginning is a bit silly.

Now, to answer the real point of your topic: Yes, it is -quite- rude to simply end a conversation with "It's not a big deal" when it is obvious that whatever the topic is is important to the speaker. Me personally, I would be interested to know the whys and wherefores that the person feels so passionately about the subject, and would like to at least hear them out rather than simply giving a pat answer and walking away.

Also, I understand that you believe that what the media presents is the cause of why society in general thinks the way it does, but I think this is only -part- of the truth. I think it's a bit more circular: Society affects Media which affects Society which affects Media...and so on and so forth. So, either we must endeavor to show better media that is not so discriminatory [if indeed it -is- discriminatory] or we must convince people that any kind of discrimination is wrong.

Despite that, I still would prefer not to have to use a public, multi-stall unisex bathroom. I mean, I can endure a -lot-...and I -do- mean a lot...but the idea of dropping my drawers when I know that just a thin wall of virtual cardboard is in between me and the creepy guy in the stall next to me is a bit more than I can accept. x_x;;; [This is coming from someone who's had to pee squatting in a trough in the dark next to middle-aged Chinese women who are also squatting and doing their business. Oh, and the trough was next to some pigs.

Fun times, but I'd rather do that every day than have the unisex thing. If it's just one toilet in one room, that I don't mind. ]

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

I understand that you believe that what the media presents is the cause of why society in general thinks the way it does

If you're saying this, then you're not understanding.
I have not once mentioned the media as being the cause of societal norms.
In fact, I have more than once said exactly the opposite, and you even said you reread gothicus' post which was exactly about this.
I am sorry that I am getting annoyed but you keep repeating yourself in this and I simply cannot believe that I have been unclear three times already and you're the only one that notices.

[JCC]

Okay, from the top:

Godslayer Jillian does NOT believe that the media is the cause of any social stigma regarding sexes or minorities. Godslayer Jillian believes that the inherently sexist or otherwise discriminatory nature of everyday life is reflected in commercials, such as the stereotypical roles that people take depending on the part of society they fit into. This is an effect of society's understandings of certain groups, and nobody seems to realise that these commercials reflect what is a prevalent problem today, dismissing it as nothing, as just a commercial or just business when they're looking into the money aspect of the companies, and not into the social standing that various groups have that lead them to be portrayed this way. The issue here is not businesses creating social discrimination. It's social discrimination, and it's represented in a media such as businesses.

If there's any more explanation needed after that, just give yourself a lobotomy.

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by JCC

Okay, from the top:

Godslayer Jillian does NOT believe that the media is the cause of any social stigma regarding sexes or minorities. Godslayer Jillian believes that the inherently sexist or otherwise discriminatory nature of everyday life is reflected in commercials, such as the stereotypical roles that people take depending on the part of society they fit into. This is an effect of society's understandings of certain groups, and nobody seems to realise that these commercials reflect what is a prevalent problem today, dismissing it as nothing, as just a commercial or just business when they're looking into the money aspect of the companies, and not into the social standing that various groups have that lead them to be portrayed this way. The issue here is not businesses creating social discrimination. It's social discrimination, and it's represented in a media such as businesses.

If there's any more explanation needed after that, just give yourself a lobotomy.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh, ok! Thank you very much for a clear explanation, Mr. JCC!

Personally, I -still- think Jillian would get less irritated if she explained to folks from the beginning that what irates her is the social standings accepted by some that shouldn't be, instead of getting seemingly upset about commercials. I imagine that when people tell her "it's no big deal" that what they are referring to is NOT the sometimes unfair social standing, but rather how seemingly upset she is about things such as commercials and bathtubs.

I am not saying that Miss Jilly is wrong, because now that I understand her correctly I see that she -is- right; what I disagree with, rather, is her method of explaining herself, which confused not only me, but several others in this thread.

Please forgive me for the confusion. I look forward to more interesting discussions from you, Miss Jilly! ^_^

[Tam Li Hua]

Ok, I re-read the OP, read it to a friend, and both of us are agreed that it is quite confusing.

I still don't believe that gender-separated bathrooms have anything to do with sexism. If they did, then there would be no shared public toilets anywhere in the states. As it is, I've been in quite a few places where there's only one toilet with a locking door, and both men and women use it.

As for stereotypes, I still think that there's a point at which you have to recognize a stereotype as a just that, separated it from reality, and realize that the two will always exist, and they will never be wholly agreed upon.

For instance, I'm from Alabama. I don't have a very strong southern accent, I find prejudice of any kind appalling, and am all for gay rights. I have traveled all over the world, lived in a foreign country, and obtained a college degree. I know many intelligent, wonderful people here...of every race...that I appreciate greatly. Yet on many boards, I hear Southerners and the South in general stereotyped as something that's very much untrue, or at the least untrue for most folks living in the South.

Now, while it irritates me on occasion [depending on my mood], I'm not about to go out and start a campaign about how 'terribly offended' I am. I simply correct folks in a calm, reasonable manner and go on my merry way. Sometimes I laugh about it, because some of the stuff really is funny.

My point is this: If there is something that is truly wrong with how things are done, then feel free to try and change it. But, if you're just complaining to complain, then may I suggest going for a walk and trying to see what's -good- about the world?

*I would also like it noted that I have told Miss Jilly this same thing at least three times on this thread, and have yet to receive a response to her actually doing anything to change people's minds.*

[Godslayer Jillian]

Dude, you know, you're just sounding more stupid every time you talk. Seriously.
You keep saying the same things over and over again.

Can you fucking read this sentence in my first post:
"I'm really not saying that the commercial above, for example, is absolutely evil and does not deserve to be aired, and TV has to be psychologically regulated for subliminal messages and we should ban hate speech and force neutral pronouns in text books."

How exactly does that fit into your accusation of my avoidance on answering you? Your question doesn't even apply because I never said anything of the sort.


Seriously, everything you're saying simply has nothing to do with anything I have said. And some of what you say is simply just devoid of logic anyway:
"I still don't believe that gender-separated bathrooms have anything to do with sexism. If they did, then there would be no shared public toilets anywhere in the states."
Exactly what reasoning is behind this? It really makes no sense to me.




Seriously, just stop. You're still talking about something at least two other people beside me have told you is not the point of this thread.

[MollyMac]

Ih. I see where you are coming from, but old habits/norms/preferences die hard. It's nto a big deal? Sure. But everything is a snag. Take the unisex restrooms- doesn't faze me, but to others it would be rather uncomfortable due to gender bias and perceived decorum.

Alternately, having all three Male, Female and Unisex would rock. I like the idea of presenting a challenging option for those who are more stuck, and an option for those who doe have gender gray areas or ideas. I also liek the idea of using unisex to fuck with my date.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

Everything that chick said

JILLIAN IS A MAN, ASS.

x

[MollyMac]

Subtlety is just another value-added service that Ophies provides.