Not-a-Goth Goth

[LiUsAiDh]

Originally Posted by Wynneth

I'm sorry you feel offended. Your age makes no difference to me.


I wasn't aware that typing something out as opposed to using emoticon shortcuts was "wrong". But, I will say that I prefer to type out my emotes, because it's more visually pleasing to me. I don't see how anyone could take it as being 'condescending' when it's simply a different way of doing something. If you're offended by that, it's your issue and not something I can control. However, I am well within my rights as an individual to do things the way I please, as long as it is within the rules. Since it is, it's really pointless to argue about it.

It's not 'wrong' it's just fucking annoying. The 'smiles' weren't condescending; it was your post which was. I didn't set out to argue about it, per se, I was just expressing my irritation at the -smile-'s.

deep-seated fear or a defensive trigger for you. It's not my intent to make anyone feel immature

What the fuck? I don't feel immature; I know I'm more mature than most adults. You just mildly irked me with your condescending post. Me mentioning my age was directed towards Madarme's comment.

1 a: of, relating to, or resembling the Goths, their civilization, or their language b: teutonic, germanic c: medieval 1 d: uncouth, barbarous
2 a: of, relating to, or having the characteristics of a style of architecture developed in northern France and spreading through western Europe from the middle of the 12th century to the early 16th century that is characterized by the converging of weights and strains at isolated points upon slender vertical piers and counterbalancing buttresses and by pointed arches and vaulting b: of or relating to an architectural style reflecting the influence of the medieval Gothic
3 often not capitalized : of or relating to a style of fiction characterized by the use of desolate or remote settings and macabre, mysterious, or violent incidents

Main Entry:
2 Gothic
Function:
noun
Date:
1691

1 a: black letter b: sans serif
2: Gothic art style or decoration; specifically : the Gothic architectural style
3: the East Germanic language of the Goths — see indo-european languages table4often not capitalized : a novel, film, or play in the gothic style

Of course, dictionaries know everything about subcultures. I also see no mention of the inner darkness of my weeping soul etc etc.

[Wynneth]

Originally Posted by LiUsAiDh

It's not 'wrong' it's just fucking annoying. The 'smiles' weren't condescending; it was your post which was. I didn't set out to argue about it, per se, I was just expressing my irritation at the -smile-'s.

Noted. But, that doesn't mean I'm going to change the way I prefer to do things. We'll agree to disagree on that; right?

Originally Posted by LiUsAiDh

What the fuck? I don't feel immature; I know I'm more mature than most adults. You just mildly irked me with your condescending post. Me mentioning my age was directed towards Madarme's comment.

You'll notice that particular part of my reply was in reference to Madarme's comment and it was, in fact, she who was quoted above my remark.

Originally Posted by LiUsAiDh

Of course, dictionaries know everything about subcultures. I also see no mention of the inner darkness of my weeping soul etc etc.

Again, you're stereotyping. I'd think that, as ticked as you get about it, you'd work extra hard not to do it, yourself.

The particular bit I'd hoped you'd note is the fact that there isn't a definition in there for your subculture. All that's listed there are the world-wide (at least of the English-speaking nations) accepted definitions of the the word "gothic." When one has that fact to work with, one may come to the logical conclusion that "gothic" and "goths" pertain to people who enjoy/what-you-will things associated with the word's actual definitions. So, it's understandable that there'd be issues for the "goths" of the music subculture with misunderstandings of the subculture, itself.

I put forth that "goth" is the least fitting nickname for your particular subculture...and more fitting for mine.

[LiUsAiDh]

Originally Posted by Wynneth

Noted. But, that doesn't mean I'm going to change the way I prefer to do things. We'll agree to disagree on that; right?

*shrug*

You'll notice that particular part of my reply was in reference to Madarme's comment and it was, in fact, she who was quoted above my remark.

Oh yeah. When you're quoting on advanced reply it doesn't show who you're quoting, so apologies.

Again, you're stereotyping. I'd think that, as ticked as you get about it, you'd work extra hard not to do it, yourself.

Again? I wasn't aware I was stereotyping once, ought about twice.

The particular bit I'd hoped you'd note is the fact that there isn't a definition in there for your subculture. All that's listed there are the world-wide (at least of the English-speaking nations) accepted definitions of the the word "gothic." When one has that fact to work with, one may come to the logical conclusion that "gothic" and "goths" pertain to people who enjoy/what-you-will things associated with the word's actual definitions. So, it's understandable that there'd be issues for the "goths" of the music subculture with misunderstandings of the subculture, itself.

I put forth that "goth" is the least fitting nickname for your particular subculture...and more fitting for mine.

Did you read why the subculture of goth, is called 'gothic'? It has nothing whatsoever to do with the Goths.

[Saya]

This is kinda like someone who thinks they are punk, without being aware that its a type of music and punks are avid fans of said genre of music. Punk also means troublesome youth, but in terms of cliques we all know what punk is. We'd all laugh our asses off at someone who calls themselves punk when all they listen to is Nightwish, so why should this be any different?

[Madarame]

Originally Posted by Wynneth

I've said nothing about age or maturity. If you feel that I have, it could be a reflection of a deep-seated fear or a defensive trigger for you. It's not my intent to make anyone feel immature--simply to make my point.

You misunderstand, I was in no way offended by you putting -smile- or -grin- after everything, It just makes you SEEM condescending. Making your point is fine I just found that some the -smiles- were put with sentences that rather than implying that you were in some way happy implied that you were talking down the person you were replying to. It didn't really have anything to do with age of maturity so I appologize for mentioning it.

As for me having a "deep-seated fear" or "defensive trigger" I feel that's a rather far fetched assumption make on a person from a few lines of text and also makes me want to question you on your background in psychology as I'm sure even the most experienced people in this field would be incapable of rendering such a diagnosis from such little information.

[JCC]

Gothic and Goth aren't the same thing! Christ!

[Wynneth]

Originally Posted by LiUsAiDh

*shrug*

Awesome!

Originally Posted by LiUsAiDh

Oh yeah. When you're quoting on advanced reply it doesn't show who you're quoting, so apologies.

Not a problem. It happens. In fact, it happened to me, as you'll see below.

Originally Posted by LiUsAiDh

Again? I wasn't aware I was stereotyping once, ought about twice.

My mistake, and I apologize. It was from another person in a previous post.

However, it does seem that stereotyping of those who identify with the "dreary/macabre/etc./etc./etc." subculture of--as I've decided to term "gothics," until a better one comes to mind--within this subculture. I'm certain that it's due to the misconceptions and misunderstandings. But, it still happens. Not every "gothic" waxes poetic about the moon bleeding sorrow or whatever--and, if they did, it's their right to do so, just like everyone else has a right to like what they want.

Originally Posted by LiUsAiDh

Did you read why the subculture of goth, is called 'gothic'? It has nothing whatsoever to do with the Goths.

I sure did. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Visigoths, besides the fact that the guy lived in Visigoth Towers (apparently) and was short, like a goblin. But, the term "goth" existed way before that man and the music. The fact that the music fad has nothing to do with Visigoths and/or Gothic sentiments is proof of the last thing I said: "goth" is an inappropriate nomenclature for your subculture.


---------

Originally Posted by Madarame

You misunderstand, I was in no way offended by you putting -smile- or -grin- after everything, It just makes you SEEM condescending. Making your point is fine I just found that some the -smiles- were put with sentences that rather than implying that you were in some way happy implied that you were talking down the person you were replying to. It didn't really have anything to do with age of maturity so I appologize for mentioning it.

No need to apologize, at all. I'm not offended nor upset. It's unfortunate that some of my statements could be viewed as condescending, since it wasn't my intent. The smile was put there to show I'm not attempting to be aggressive nor trying to instigate anything.

Originally Posted by Madarame

As for me having a "deep-seated fear" or "defensive trigger" I feel that's a rather far fetched assumption make on a person from a few lines of text and also makes me want to question you on your background in psychology as I'm sure even the most experienced people in this field would be incapable of rendering such a diagnosis from such little information.

Oh, no. You misunderstand. I made no claim to know either option to be a truth, when applied to you. It was merely a suggestion and I assume nothing about you--because, well, I don't know you. Maybe you do have a deep-seated fear or defensive trigger, but I wouldn't begin to assume that I could divine that from one or two posts from you.

-------

Originally Posted by JCC

Gothic and Goth aren't the same thing! Christ!

That's exactly my point, JCC. -beam- Thanks for helping!

[LiUsAiDh]

Originally Posted by Wynneth

has a right to like what they want.

Erm, nope. Not even close. Think 'The Law'.

But, the term "goth" existed way before that man and the music. The fact that the music fad has nothing to do with Visigoths and/or Gothic sentiments is proof of the last thing I said: "goth" is an inappropriate nomenclature for your subculture.

Not really. A word can have multiple meanings. It only becomes 'inappropriate' when they're confused.

[Wynneth]

Originally Posted by LiUsAiDh

Erm, nope. Not even close. Think 'The Law'.

-blink- Pardon? Are you saying that people don't have a right to like what they want? How did you come by that? And, to which 'The Law' are you referring?

Originally Posted by LiUsAiDh

Not really. A word can have multiple meanings. It only becomes 'inappropriate' when they're confused.

Now, I'm even more confused. Are you saying that "goth" as the post-punk 80's music fanbase understands it...isn't confused with something else, entirely? I'd say that it is confused and, by that logic, inappropriate.

[JCC]

What are you trying to achieve from this? I mean, you wouldn't contest the meaning of 'albino' so that you could be one, so why say about a word that is universally defined as the subculture centrally linked to 80s Post-Punk is actually a life philosophy or a set of unrelated interests? I wouldn't say "'black' means the philosophy of blackness, the outlook on life and the appreciation of the 'black' art movement" just so that I could call myself a black guy.

[Wynneth]

Originally Posted by JCC

What are you trying to achieve from this? I mean, you wouldn't contest the meaning of 'albino' so that you could be one, so why say about a word that is universally defined as the subculture centrally linked to 80s Post-Punk is actually a life philosophy or a set of unrelated interests? I wouldn't say "'black' means the philosophy of blackness, the outlook on life and the appreciation of the 'black' art movement" just so that I could call myself a black guy.

-exhale- But, I'm not trying to say that, though. Am I speaking English? Because, it appears as though people are missing the overall point. I will try to say this as succinctly as possible:

1.) I am not goth (as the 80's post-punk fanbase define the word), nor do I wish to redefine the ill-used nickname to make me fit into it.

2.) The reason the nickname doesn't fit the subculture of which many of you are a member is because, to quote many of you: it has nothing to do with Gothic.

3.) It can't be universally defined as you claim, since there are so many misconceptions about it--which breeds ire and unrest among the ranks that do know that definition.

4.) Goth is more fitting to someone like me, because it's appropriately indicative of the fact that I enjoy Gothic architecture, art, fiction and perspective. However, I'm choosing to call that subculture, my subculture "gothIC".

There's nothing for me to gain, here. Instead, I am attempting to share a different point of view. I thought it might give some of you a better understanding of why people have so many misunderstandings in regard to your subculture.

See?

[LiUsAiDh]

Originally Posted by Wynneth

-blink- Pardon? Are you saying that people don't have a right to like what they want? How did you come by that? And, to which 'The Law' are you referring?

People aren't allowed to like child porn, murdering people, stealing from people etc etc.

Now, I'm even more confused. Are you saying that "goth" as the post-punk 80's music fanbase understands it...isn't confused with something else, entirely? I'd say that it is confused and, by that logic, inappropriate.

I'm saying goth - in the 80's post-punk subculture context =/= Gothic architecture, Goths etc. Just because they share a word.

[Wynneth]

Originally Posted by LiUsAiDh

People aren't allowed to like child porn, murdering people, stealing from people etc etc.

Well, of course. I was under the impression that we were speaking of things that weren't, you know, illegal. I thought it was a given.

Originally Posted by LiUsAiDh

I'm saying goth - in the 80's post-punk subculture context =/= Gothic architecture, Goths etc. Just because they share a word.

I know that. That's what I've been saying, the entire time. I'm saying that [sic] goth - in the 80's post-punk subculture context is inappropriately called goth, as it leads to more misunderstandings and preconceived notions than not.

[Tam Li Hua]

For the record, I've no idea how putting -grin- over is condescending. O_o;;;

It seems that whenever someone posts here trying to be polite and actually their own person, everyone jumps down their throat. It's a little ridiculous.

Look, Wynneth never even claimed to be a 'hard-core' Goth. She said she was Gothic-inspired, for lack of a better word. As for the history, hell, even Voltaire in his book "What is Goth?" goes into the original meaning!

I think Wynneth's point about the word "Goth" is that it isn't original. "There is nothing new under the sun," so said King Solomon, and he's right.

Now, if in a thousand years the word "Goth" still means "Someone who listens to Bauhaus and Siouxsie, has a misanthropic outlook on life, and who likes to dress as if it's Halloween every day," THEN you folks will have a right to get indignant about it. As it is right now, though, the term is ridiculously broad, and I find it amusing that folks get so very upset whenever someone else doesn't fit their definition of Goth.

Seriously, no wonder the rest of mainstream society makes fun of us so much! XD Stop taking yourselves so seriously, and just enjoy what you enjoy. Who cares what it's called as long as you enjoy it? ^__^

[LiUsAiDh]

Originally Posted by Wynneth

Well, of course. I was under the impression that we were speaking of things that weren't, you know, illegal. I thought it was a given.

No, you didn't say that, therefore it wasn't a given. You're also saying we're allowed to like what we want, unless it's illegal. Good ol' contradiction there, kids!

I know that. That's what I've been saying, the entire time. I'm saying that [sic] goth - in the 80's post-punk subculture context is inappropriately called goth, as it leads to more misunderstandings and preconceived notions than not.

What d'ya want us to do, change the name? Or try to right the incorrect conceptions?

[Wynneth]

Originally Posted by LiUsAiDh

No, you didn't say that, therefore it wasn't a given. You're also saying we're allowed to like what we want, unless it's illegal. Good ol' contradiction there, kids!

No. Actually, you're allowed to like whatever you want. You're just not allowed to act on something you like that's illegal, by the law's confines. You can act on it, but you're running the risk of the repercussions set down by law. You, I believe, were the one to say that a person wasn't allowed to like whatever they want. Additionally, I was under the impression that we were talking about things that had nothing to do with the possibility of being illegal.

Originally Posted by LiUsAiDh

What d'ya want us to do, change the name? Or try to right the incorrect conceptions?

Well, I want you to do whatever will make you happy. Two options readily come to mind:
1) change the name to something you feel is more fitting,
or
2) accept that there will be misconceptions and no longer get angry, defensive or offended when they're put before you.

[Joker_in_the_Pack]

Originally Posted by JCC

or bombastic like Gotherfall

I didn't think anyone else knew about them! They're fucking astounding! Where Angels Lie is amazing!

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Wynneth

4.) Goth is more fitting to someone like me, because it's appropriately indicative of the fact that I enjoy Gothic architecture, art, fiction and perspective. However, I'm choosing to call that subculture, my subculture "gothIC".

Lets break that down. Gothic Architecture, if wikipedia is to be believed, was called the French style until sometime in the Renaissance, where the term was applied as an insult. Yes, Gothic and Goth were used as insults, to mean that you are a barbaric person, a throw back to the original Visigoths. The fiction part, is just horror mixed with romance. The art was a medieval movement, as far as I've seen its mostly religious work. I am not aware of gothic as a perspective, if you're macabre, why not describe yourself as such? If you're a romantic horror fan, just say so.

[LiUsAiDh]

Originally Posted by Wynneth

No. Actually, you're allowed to like whatever you want. You're just not allowed to act on something you like that's illegal, by the law's confines. You can act on it, but you're running the risk of the repercussions set down by law.

If you like something - then you've done it. You can't say you like murdering people, without having done it.

You, I believe, were the one to say that a person wasn't allowed to like whatever they want.

Yes I was, your point? I said we can't because of the law, you disagreed, I said murder etc, you said that doesn't count. You're the one contradicting yourself.

Additionally, I was under the impression that we were talking about things that had nothing to do with the possibility of being illegal.

You made a statement relating to things in general.

1) change the name to something you feel is more fitting,

Oh yeah, from now on I name the subculture formally known as goth - 'ghujdac'. That's bound to work. People'll really know what I'm talking about.

2) accept that there will be misconceptions and no longer get angry, defensive or offended when they're put before you.

I'm not any of those, it just irritates me. If I decided to call everything by an incorrect name, wouldn't you find that a piss off, Julie? It's not my fault they're incorrect.

[Wynneth]

Originally Posted by Saya

Lets break that down. Gothic Architecture, if wikipedia is to be believed, was called the French style until sometime in the Renaissance, where the term was applied as an insult. Yes, Gothic and Goth were used as insults, to mean that you are a barbaric person, a throw back to the original Visigoths. The fiction part, is just horror mixed with romance. The art was a medieval movement, as far as I've seen its mostly religious work. I am not aware of gothic as a perspective, if you're macabre, why not describe yourself as such? If you're a romantic horror fan, just say so.

Of course. Many titles are given out of insult. The Christians come to mind. But, they don't seem to mind it, now.

Gothic perspective, as I understand it, is a certain type of aesthetic, characterized by the gloomy, moody and romantic.

If the fanbase of the post-punk 80's music fad can become a subculture, why not people whose aesthetic is closely aligned with the "gothic perspective"? If anything, it's more accurately a subculture when applied to people such as that than it does to a fanbase for a music fad from the 80's.

[Joker_in_the_Pack]

For the record, I've no idea how putting -grin- over is condescending. O_o;;;

[/quote]
They're both fucking condescending and completely stupid, along with those god damn anime smiley faces you obnoxious ass beanie.

[Tam Li Hua]

Wynneth: It looks like these folks are just screwing with you, at this point. :/ Trust me, sometimes you just have to let it go, because some folks just want to fight about anything here.

[I hope you stick around regardless, though, because you seem to be one of the few here that has a mature way of handling things.

[Wynneth]

Originally Posted by LiUsAiDh

If you like something - then you've done it. You can't say you like murdering people, without having done it.

I don't think that's true. I'm certain there are many people--mentally unbalanced, most assuredly--who fantasize/daydream about murdering people and they enjoy it. It's called pre-meditation and is, generally, a precursor to a person committing the illegal act. Not always, though, as some people do seek help/have it forced upon them.

Originally Posted by LiUsAiDh

Yes I was, your point? I said we can't because of the law, you disagreed, I said murder etc, you said that doesn't count. You're the one contradicting yourself.

My point is, you can like something without doing it, as illustrated above. I don't believe that's a contradiction, at all.

Originally Posted by LiUsAiDh

You made a statement relating to things in general.

If one were to read this from an outside perspective, it may just appear as though you're fostering a misunderstanding as a contradiction, in order to "have something against" me. That's fine by me. If you need to blame me for something or think that I'm wrong, that's a-ok. It doesn't bother me.

Originally Posted by LiUsAiDh

Oh yeah, from now on I name the subculture formally known as goth - 'ghujdac'. That's bound to work. People'll really know what I'm talking about.

Well, it's not like the majority know what you're talking about, now, anyway; is it?

Originally Posted by LiUsAiDh

I'm not any of those, it just irritates me. If I decided to call everything by an incorrect name, wouldn't you find that a piss off, Julie? It's not my fault they're incorrect.

That's great! I'm glad you're not angry, defensive or upset. I don't get upset about things that are inconsequential and have no real impact on my life. That's how I take control of the situation and the reason I suggested it as an available option for your subculture.

[Wynneth]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

Wynneth: It looks like these folks are just screwing with you, at this point. :/ Trust me, sometimes you just have to let it go, because some folks just want to fight about anything here.

[I hope you stick around regardless, though, because you seem to be one of the few here that has a mature way of handling things.

-smile- It's ok. I understand that, somehow, I've threatened them, in some way. Perhaps they feel that I've "attacked" them or their subculture, in some way.

It's just unfortunate that my words aren't taken as they're written/typed. The reading between the lines and looking for anything onto which one can latch is an act of desperation, in my eyes. I'm willing--as I have always been--to agree to disagree. After all, it's sometimes the only option left to us.

[Tam Li Hua]

Joker: Uh huh....

I think you folks are just a wee bit oversensitive, personally. And if you hate it that much, then put us on ignore. And if you -don't- put us on ignore, then you're just going to have to learn to live with it.

[Also, you may want to slow down when you're typing, Joker; it seems you got all discombobulated with the quotes last time. O.o

Oh, and:

XD O.o ^_^ >_> =P >=D

You know. Since I know you like them oh so much. [<-- Note sarcastic tone.]