In The Sky With Diamonds.

[gothicusmaximus]

Originally Posted by JCC

You don't think eight years of compulsory subjects is enough to let people decide to branch out more into what THEY want to do, and will lead to the death of a positive, peaceful society?

For the average student, even with an exceptional teacher, it's not enough time to develop a sufficient knowledge of seminal subjects.
Seriously, who knows what they want to do for the rest of their lives at age eleven? I didn't even know I was destined to rule at age eleven, and that's painfully obvious.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by JCC

No, because Math would be a part of Science, as far as equations go and so forth.

As for English, it's not valuable to people who don't want to learn it, if you can't write coherently after eight years of tuition, along with being born in the country that speaks the damn language, you're a fucking idiot.

Math is absolutely necessary on its own. How can you understand the math your using in physics and chemistry and biology if you've never seen it before or don't understand the logic behind it? Some of those equations are hard to get your mind around even if you've done it before. Science teachers will assume you have seen something like it before, its a massive waste of time for them to explain math when they should be teaching its application.

And you would be surprised even all the people who have done English can't write a coherent essay. It doesn't come easy for a lot of people, evidently.

[JCC]

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

For the average student, even with an exceptional teacher, it's not enough time to develop a sufficient knowledge of seminal subjects.
Seriously, who knows what they want to do for the rest of their lives at age eleven? I didn't even know I was destined to rule at age eleven, and that's painfully obvious.

You start choosing subjects at 13/14, and if you don't know what you want to do by then or at least have a slight inkling of what subjects you prefer, you've wasted a lot of time.

Originally Posted by Saya

Math is absolutely necessary on its own. How can you understand the math your using in physics and chemistry and biology if you've never seen it before or don't understand the logic behind it? Some of those equations are hard to get your mind around even if you've done it before. Science teachers will assume you have seen something like it before, its a massive waste of time for them to explain math when they should be teaching its application.

Being taught Maths for eight years = never seeing Maths before?

You don't even deserve an education.

[gothicusmaximus]

Originally Posted by MegearaErotica

I think that's true for every country. Prople who win a war call it glorious, whereas people who lose the war call it cruel.

I'm pretty sure contemporary Germany hates WWII era Germany more than England or America does.

[MegearaErotica]

Hmmm, you may be true on that subject but I think that may be an exception to the rule.

[gothicusmaximus]

Originally Posted by JCC

You start choosing subjects at 13/14, and if you don't know what you want to do by then or at least have a slight inkling of what subjects you prefer, you've wasted a lot of time.

A slight inkling =/= prepared to take on a crippling deficiency of knowledge regarding the subjects you dislike, and thereby effectively commit to the subjects for which you have a slight preference for the rest of your life.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by JCC

You don't think eight years of compulsory subjects is enough to let people decide to branch out more into what THEY want to do, and will lead to the death of a positive, peaceful society?

That question is inapplicable when I'm not defending the current educational system.
I do, however, believe that it is naive to think that someone can make a good decision on the future of their lives BEFORE having the knowledge of the particulars.
By twelfth grade, with a good but feasible education, one has already learned more than what a Renaissance man used to know.
That overall knowledge in all fields is good enough, and education shouldn't branch out into 'practical' specifics afterwards. If someone feels like keeping honing their knowledge skills, then it ought to be well-rounded knowledge.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by JCC

You start choosing subjects at 13/14, and if you don't know what you want to do by then or at least have a slight inkling of what subjects you prefer, you've wasted a lot of time.


Being taught Maths for eight years = never seeing Maths before?

You don't even deserve an education.

I never knew what I wanted to do for sure until I was 20. Its a hard thing to think about, how to spend the rest of my life. And there's a huge number of people who are not sure what they want to do until later in life. When I was 13 I wanted to be a nun, I'm very happy that a fanciful naive choice like that at a young age hasn't doomed me to a life of poverty and celibacy.

And no, math for eight years doesn't mean you know advanced math. You're only scratching the basics then.

[lucylucy]

Guys, I didn't mean to turn this into some stupid shitstorm, and I'm sorry some of you decided to make it that.

LiUsAiDh, I think goths do have (or should have) a lot to do with openmindedness. Think about how many people look down on goths just because of the way they dress, etc. This is because they are close-minded. An individual interested in things outside the norm (i.e. goth culture) tends to be more open-minded. Yet I come here and every time someone has an idea that's maybe a little misinformed or that someone disagrees with, they get treated like scum and flamed. It's ridiculous, among goths and among anyone.

I recognize that my ideas and opinions about education are a little drastic. But this is coming from a person who has been through a lot of bullshit because of schools and the educational system.

The list of subjects that I provided was not meant to say "these subjects are worthless, all of the things included in these subjects are worthless". Many of them are valid subjects but I hold to my belief that not everything taught in these subjects is relevant, and a lot of it isn't.

Saying that people don't know what they want to do with their life at a young age doesn't matter in the slightest. Most 40-year-olds don't know what they want to do with their life. If someone has a true calling, or even something they discover they really want to do, they can learn to do it whenever the fuck they want. Education should be about teaching people how to survive in life, and the basics only. At a young age you do know what you hate and what you don't, and that will most likely last the rest of your life. You might not know what exactly you want to do with your life, but choosing subjects you enjoy will make people a lot more likely to succeed and find something they want to do for the rest of their life.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by lucylucy

Guys, I didn't mean to turn this into some stupid shitstorm, and I'm sorry some of you decided to make it that.

This is not a shit storm. This is a cool argument.
If you think this is a fight, you're gonna need some readjusting for this site.
We generally don't talk about inane stuff. Not like other sites. I mean have you seen them?! Someone opens a thread with a stupid and mediocre opinion and the next thirty posts are merely variations of a fucking dull "I agree"!!

[MegearaErotica]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

This is not a shit storm. This is a cool argument.
If you think this is a fight, you're gonna need some readjusting for this site.
We generally don't talk about inane stuff. Not like other sites. I mean have you seen them?! Someone opens a thread with a stupid and mediocre opinion and the next thirty posts are merely variations of a fucking dull "I agree"!!

Yes, I soon found that I really had to scrutinize my answers before I posted.

[lucylucy]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

This is not a shit storm. This is a cool argument.
If you think this is a fight, you're gonna need some readjusting for this site.
We generally don't talk about inane stuff. Not like other sites. I mean have you seen them?! Someone opens a thread with a stupid and mediocre opinion and the next thirty posts are merely variations of a fucking dull "I agree"!!

For the most part this is a cool argument, yes. But there are definitely some people on this site, and in this thread, that need to chill out. I'm all for an intelligent conversation, but not one where the people are too stubborn to admit they're wrong or look at other peoples' ideas with an open mind. People should treat other people the way they want to be treated, and I don't see that happening a lot on this site.

[Fatbaby]

Originally Posted by MegearaErotica

Oh my gosh! Someone else besides me does that?! That's awesome!

I did that as a child. I never eat Wonder Bread anymore.

[MegearaErotica]

Originally Posted by Fatbaby

I did that as a child. I never eat Wonder Bread anymore.

I don't eat it after I play with it and it gets my mom really mad. I know I sound really immature but there's just something about the squishiness...

[Solumina]

I'm not one to pull the age card but I think that in this case it is valid, I think that it is a lot easier to see how helpful that information really is after you have gotten out of high school (even more so once you have started your career). I have been out of high school for only a few years and already I have used much of the information that I thought was so pointless to learn. Even though I'm far from an idiot I would have struggled in nearly all of my general education courses without the knowledge base that I entered university with (much of which I thought was pointless when I was learning). I also know that without the math courses I took in high school I would never have been able to find the amazing jobs that I have had (where I made about $5 more an hour than most of my friends even though what I was doing was far less stressful and I enjoyed it far more than they enjoyed their jobs) nor would I have been able to obtain them without both the required history and English courses. I have also used much of what I learned outside of work or school, it broadened my knowledge base making it easier to learn new information because I had something that I could relate it to.

[gothicusmaximus]

Originally Posted by lucylucy

Saying that people don't know what they want to do with their life at a young age doesn't matter in the slightest. Most 40-year-olds don't know what they want to do with their life. If someone has a true calling, or even something they discover they really want to do, they can learn to do it whenever the fuck they want.

What the fuck is a 'true calling'? Are we pulling spirituality into this now?

Education should be about teaching people how to survive in life, and the basics only. At a young age you do know what you hate and what you don't, and that will most likely last the rest of your life.

What? Did you seriously just say that people's tastes and interests don't change after adolescence?

You might not know what exactly you want to do with your life, but choosing subjects you enjoy will make people a lot more likely to succeed and find something they want to do for the rest of their life.

No, developing a foundational understanding of a number of subjects will afford you more options in regard to your future career, rather than render you miserably specialized.
Say you like English at age 13, so you only study english for the next seven years, then, for whatever reason-- maybe you're not so good at english after all, or you're fucking sick of it, or it dawned on you that you're not going to make any money with a B.A in the humanities-- you want to learn some math too. Too fucking bad, you're an academic invalid in regard to that subject, and all other subjects outside of english for that matter, and only through YEARS of study can you hope to become sufficiently competent to secure any career in that field.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by JCC

So make it optional, like I suggested in the first place. If someone wants to be an architect, they can follow the relevant subjects. Since I've no intention of using algebra or geometry, it's a waste of my time to force me into doing it.

Bear with me, because I'm not trying to insult you, but this statement really shows your age, and I strongly feel you'll grow out of it.

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

If everyone knew only about the one thing in which they're interested, interdisciplinary discourse would be a virtual impossibility-- physicists would be able to talk only to physicists and literary scholars would be able to talk only to literary scholars, because no one would understand even the basic jargon of academic spheres beyond their own. It would stunt the intellectual growth of society.

This is closest to the most important part of the answer. Remember the Mars spacecraft that overshot Mars and wasted millions of dollars because the trajectory scientists used killometers and the landing craft scientists used miles?

Millions of dollars wasted due to poor interdisciplinary discourse, as GM said.

Overspecializing is what killed the dinosaurs when the environment changed. You evolve a beak for opening a certain species of nut, then the nut is wiped out by rodents or disease, and you perish. Diversity in education helps the individual to survive a fluid and dynamic financial and social environment.

[a morbid curiosity]

In my opinion, all of the school subjects are definitely required. Actually, I wish I could choose more of them. But I think that the issue here is not that the subjects are pointless but that the kids are being made to feel that the subject is pointless out of the pure laziness of some of the teachers.

For example, in second year French, I had a great teacher. He forced every single member of the class to participate and he'd give them a detention for not speaking up and answering a question during lessons. He made me do every extension activity in the book because he thought I didn't exercise my potential enough. I utterly hated him.
Then, next year, I got another French teacher. He's actually Belgian and spends most of our lessons berating the Scottish curriculum. He doesn't make us speak in class because he can't be bothered, and would rather have us take notes in our books. However, since then my grades have dropped, I can't speak in a French accent, I find it difficult to concentrate and I don't really see the point in the class at all.

I think that if you are forced to be kept on your toes constantly then you are learning and you are interested, therefore given an incentive to learn more of the subject.

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by lucylucy

But there are definitely some people on this site, and in this thread, that need to chill out.

You speak truth, I like you.

[Geoluhread]

In my country, it's not the matter of what's necessary, it's unfair

In the 12th grade, if you chose the scientific branch, you take all four subjects in science, calculus, computer, the arabic language, english, the islamic religion for muslims and a book about various things, mostly history

If you want to be a doctor for example, you have to get almost full grades in all of them...
I mean, what the hell? I suck in physics, so my entire future will be screwed up on something i won't be having (our physics text book is about electricity and relativity)
Or history, we've been taking history for our entire lives, but why make it a part of something irrelevant?!!
They don't allow us to choose the subjects that we want, so then in college we just build upon them,.. No, you have to take EVERYTHING!!
Same goes for other majors

Most people who choose the scientific branch choose scientific stuff in college, although -and here comes the ridiculous part- they can study history and geology even if they didn't take it in two years

I wanted to study medicine, but it all got fucked up because i suck at arabic!! (Btw, our subjects in school are all in arabic, while in college they're all in english)

I can go on for days on how this system sucks...

[LiUsAiDh]

Originally Posted by Geoluhread

If you want to be a doctor for example, you have to get almost full grades in all of them...
I mean, what the hell? I suck in physics, so my entire future will be screwed up on something i won't be having (our physics text book is about electricity and relativity)

I wanted to study medicine, but it all got fucked up because i suck at arabic!! (Btw, our subjects in school are all in arabic, while in college they're all in english)

I think it's universal that you need good grades to go into medicine. Here you need 10A*'s to go to many med schools, and sometimes more to get into the good ones (Oxbridge).

I think it's so you don't give your patients diamorphine for a headache.

[Fatbaby]

Most of the professional counseling psychologists, psychiatrists, and professors at Humboldt State University have a great deal of education but restricted to a fery narrow field. They know very little that is outside their field. Few have read any fictional authors or poets. They cannot discuss farming or economics to any degree.

I was continually pressured to stop taking classes in ceramics and art even though I carried a 3.65 grade point average through my bachelors and masters work. I no longer attend their get togethers unless I have something scholarly to discuss.

[Geoluhread]

Originally Posted by LiUsAiDh

I think it's universal that you need good grades to go into medicine. Here you need 10A*'s to go to many med schools, and sometimes more to get into the good ones (Oxbridge).

I think it's so you don't give your patients diamorphine for a headache.

I understand this... But do you have to take history, arabic and islamic studies?!!

It's fine to take them earlier, or as something you choose, but not as a must
In what part of medicine you're gonna cut a patient open and find a word that needs to be categorized as a verb, noun or whatever in arabic when you don't even take it in college!!
I am all for teaching those subjects that we have, but when they become irrelevent and still get to be a part of your grade, it's absurd
And I'm only talking about when the grade you have is the only thing to determine your future

[LiUsAiDh]

Originally Posted by Geoluhread

I understand this... But do you have to take history, arabic and islamic studies?!!

It's fine to take them earlier, or as something you choose, but not as a must
In what part of medicine you're gonna cut a patient open and find a word that needs to be categorized as a verb, noun or whatever in arabic when you don't even take it in college!!
I am all for teaching those subjects that we have, but when they become irrelevent and still get to be a part of your grade, it's absurd
And I'm only talking about when the grade you have is the only thing to determine your future

You need to be able to communicate well with the patients, and have a good grasp of whatever language is relevant to where you are.

Also, as mentioned previously, broadens your knowledge base, and if you would, at some point, wish to change professions; it means that you don't have to get qualifications right from scratch.