State Laws/ Propositions

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by ~~Auriel~~

I'm not trying to "correct" you for what you believe...why can't you show me the same amount of courtesy?

No one is trying to get you to correct or change what you believe. People are trying to get you to explain it, which you can't, because your religion makes no fucking sense.

[KontanKarite]

How exactly can we be tolerant of religions when religions are the ones telling their followers that they're the rightful authorities of life and everyone else is wrong.

Christianity says everyone but Christians are wrong. How can anyone put up with that or tolerate that kind of logic when there's no room for a middle ground? Basically, Auriel, according to your doctrines, we either cleave to your beliefs and be in the right or we're just plain old wrong. So it would be wrong for gays to be able to get married for example. So we're actually supposed to let churches make all of our decisions for us?

What I've always wondered about Christians is why they simply wont allow the meek to inherit the earth. I never understood it. If gay marriage brought about the end times, would Christians not be happy about that? I mean, you're going to be with your Christ anyway in those times, so good for you.

LET the world fall apart. It's not the job of the Christian to save the world, that's the domain of Christ. A Christian's job is to simply set a good example and spread a message of love, NOT dictate what others can and can not do.

[~~Auriel~~]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

How exactly can we be tolerant of religions when religions are the ones telling their followers that they're the rightful authorities of life and everyone else is wrong.

Christianity says everyone but Christians are wrong. How can anyone put up with that or tolerate that kind of logic when there's no room for a middle ground? Basically, Auriel, according to your doctrines, we either cleave to your beliefs and be in the right or we're just plain old wrong. So it would be wrong for gays to be able to get married for example. So we're actually supposed to let churches make all of our decisions for us?

What I've always wondered about Christians is why they simply wont allow the meek to inherit the earth. I never understood it. If gay marriage brought about the end times, would Christians not be happy about that? I mean, you're going to be with your Christ anyway in those times, so good for you.

LET the world fall apart. It's not the job of the Christian to save the world, that's the domain of Christ. A Christian's job is to simply set a good example and spread a message of love, NOT dictate what others can and can not do.

The bold type is pretty much what I've been saying all along. As for the first portion of your post, my beliefs are largely based on Christianity- but not totally. I don't go to church for that exact reason and I'm not the stereotypical Christian. I don't like others to force their views on me, therefore I don't do it. There is some amount of God's Truth in every religion. You can't truly know Him or the One Truth if you fail to see the corruption of the church. The church wants you to follow it, not God. There is a huge difference between the two.

[~~Auriel~~]

Originally Posted by HumanePain

This is an important line of questioning, it will led her to examine her beliefs and make her think and hopefully research. When she does research the bible she will find that Jesus never said homosexuality is a sin, but he did say to "love one another as I have loved you". Since Jesus and The Father are one, then God has updated his view to humanity in the New Testament, that everyone is a child of God and everyone has the opportunity to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

That's not something that I'm unaware of. We are either saved by devotion and repentance or by His Grace.
And as previously stated, I don't decide what is 'sinful' and what isn't. That is up to God. Jesus never specifically said anything about homosexuality in the bible, but God did in the OT. What Jesus did was add a few extra commandments and amend various laws in the OT. I.e. rather than "an eye for and eye, tooth for a tooth," He changed it to "turn the other cheek." He never cancelled out God's Teachings from the OT.

[~~Auriel~~]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

Don't you dare give us that bullshit.
"God says that we should all worship the little teapot he buried in Mars or we'll have a worse fate than Hell. PROVE ME WRONG!!"

You have the burden of proof; don't you dare kill logic.

Faith doesn't require logic.

[~~Auriel~~]

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

And apparently you're one of them.

Not really. Just because my beliefs are largely based on Christianity, doesn't mean that I subscribe to the religion as a whole.

[Albert Mond]

God says that seven is a magic number.

[Solumina]

Originally Posted by ~~Auriel~~

Faith doesn't require logic.

Yes but faith should also not ignore logic, that is how you end up with a flock of mindless sheep.

[~~Auriel~~]

Originally Posted by Solumina

Yes but faith should also not ignore logic, that is how you end up with a flock of mindless sheep.

Good point. I think the types of people I am being stereotyped with are those that you are speaking of.

[~~Auriel~~]

Originally Posted by Albert Mond

God says that seven is a magic number.

Lol, I thought it was 3?

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by Solumina

Yes but faith should also not ignore logic, that is how you end up with a flock of mindless sheep.

Quoted for truth.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by ~~Auriel~~

Not really. Just because my beliefs are largely based on Christianity, doesn't mean that I subscribe to the religion as a whole.

You either believe in the Bible or you don't.
You don't get to decide when you're going to obey God and when you're going to disobey him.

If you are a Christian, you do not disobey God.

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by ~~Auriel~~

That's not something that I'm unaware of. We are either saved by devotion and repentance or by His Grace.
And as previously stated, I don't decide what is 'sinful' and what isn't. That is up to God. Jesus never specifically said anything about homosexuality in the bible, but God did in the OT. What Jesus did was add a few extra commandments and amend various laws in the OT. I.e. rather than "an eye for and eye, tooth for a tooth," He changed it to "turn the other cheek." He never cancelled out God's Teachings from the OT.

The OT was written by Jews not Christians.

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

If you are a Christian, you do not disobey God.

But Christians do. Only Jesus never disobeyed God.

There is a concept in Christianity known as forgiveness. Christians are forgiven daily, in fact a common prayer, The Lord's Prayer asks for daily forgiveness.

You would make a good Catholic Sister, ready to rap the back of the disobedient with a ruler at the slightest hint of human frailty and imperfection.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by HumanePain

But Christians do. Only Jesus never disobeyed God.

There is a concept in Christianity known as forgiveness. Christians are forgiven daily, in fact a common prayer, The Lord's Prayer asks for daily forgiveness.

You would make a good Catholic Sister, ready to rap the back of the disobedient with a ruler at the slightest hint of human frailty and imperfection.

No, don't misunderstand.

In the Bible, it is allowable for people to be weak.
It is not allowable for people to know they are doing something wrong and do it anyway. It is not allowable for people to CHOOSE to disobey God.

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

No, don't misunderstand.

In the Bible, it is allowable for people to be weak.
It is not allowable for people to know they are doing something wrong and do it anyway. It is not allowable for people to CHOOSE to disobey God.

But Christians do choose to disobey God. I think this is what you and other members here in Gnet find distasteful and hypocritical in Christians is that what they follow is not adhered to. You find the saying "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven" self contradictory, but that is one of the fundamental cornerstones of the faith, that people are loved by God despite their intermittent or even frequent disobedience, but this is a very necessary part of the faith. Without it people would despair at their constant failings because "all fall short in the sight of God" and so no one would be saved.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by HumanePain

But Christians do. Only Jesus never disobeyed God.

There is a concept in Christianity known as forgiveness. Christians are forgiven daily, in fact a common prayer, The Lord's Prayer asks for daily forgiveness.

You would make a good Catholic Sister, ready to rap the back of the disobedient with a ruler at the slightest hint of human frailty and imperfection.

Man, I'm all hot about this now.

[~~Auriel~~]

Originally Posted by HumanePain

The OT was written by Jews not Christians.

That's true. But the OT is accepted in Christian faith...at least most denominations that I'm aware of.

[~~Auriel~~]

Originally Posted by HumanePain

But Christians do choose to disobey God. I think this is what you and other members here in Gnet find distasteful and hypocritical in Christians is that what they follow is not adhered to. You find the saying "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven" self contradictory, but that is one of the fundamental cornerstones of the faith, that people are loved by God despite their intermittent or even frequent disobedience, but this is a very necessary part of the faith. Without it people would despair at their constant failings because "all fall short in the sight of God" and so no one would be saved.

Well said. I think it's not just about choosing to disobey...though that is part of it. The other part is that no one is perfect. Plus it depends on what the church teaches them about the scriptures, which is another reason why I have issues with the church. Some (radical) Christians believe that they are bound by God to "save" others. Rather than glorifying God by not shoving him down other people's throats, they do just that because the church causes them to believe that is their duty. For what? For more people to attend church. I also find an alarming amount of Christians who attend church on Sundays but don't include God in their everyday lives.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by HumanePain

But Christians do choose to disobey God.

"Disobeying" is a bad word for this.
If it were disobeying, then you make a point.
But this is more of:
- "Here's the set of rules my almighty divinity created. Please follow them."
- "Yeah... no... I think you're wrong; it has to have some Zen in it."

[raggedyanne]

Originally Posted by x-deviant-x

Hold on, wait. wait wait. No one is asking any church to recognize gay marriage, and no law can be passed in this country to require any religious institution to recognize gay marriages. No more than any law can require any church to recognize interracial marriages or blond people marrying brunettes. That sort of decision is completely up to the church. The gay rights movement is trying to get the government to recognize gay marriages as having equal legal rights, no one said anything about forcing churches to do so. A church can recognize two people of their choosing as being married in the eyes of the church, whether they went through the proper legal transactions or not. If you don't have a marriage license, your marriage is not recognized in the eyes of the government. That would be common-law marriage, which - last I checked - was finally removed from all state governments. It took quite a while though.

On the same note, the government can't step in and dictate what churches recognize what marriages. There have been gay weddings being performed all over the country for years as a sort of religious ceremony, but none of them hold up in any courts. Laws cannot dictate religious beliefs. Although some do, (such as Blue Laws in the south, where you can't buy alcohol on sundays, or buy any sort of general merchandise in stores during church hours - but that's an entirely different issue). There are a lot of gay churches, more and more forming every year. They don't believe homosexuality is condemned by the bible or by jesus, and therefore have every right to apply to be able to perform legal marriages if that's what they choose to do. You can't prevent them from doing that, or you are dictating to them what their religious beliefs should be.

The struggle is to make our marriages equal under law as yours. nothing more. Whether you, as a member of YOUR church, are required to ask your church's permission to marry whoever it is you want to marry, that is entirely between you and your church. A Catholic can't marry a Jew, and remain a Catholic in the eyes of the church, unless they raise their children as Catholic. No government law can ever change that. The government, however, doesn't care what religion the two people are, as long as they both have their license to be married, and -so far- are of the opposite gender. See why it's been called a business by some here? A religious marriage provides no legal benefits if it is not a marriage recognized by the government.
.

Thank you! Do you mid if I post this on my local GTSA'a myspace?

[raggedyanne]

Originally Posted by Saya

Considering much of the basis agaisnt homosexuality comes from the fact that gay men are wasting seed and can't have babies, I just think its hypocritical to be agaisnt homosexuality but you're not agaisnt birth control or having sex with women who are barren, there's little difference. Also most of the text that talks about that will also say, "and you should kill them." And apparently the only passage that says anything about lesbians just says "the women turned from natural ways", so its not even clear if that was Paul was talking about or if they just weren't sleeping with men anymore, and thats what turned men gay. So its just not logical why a person can pick and choose not to burn witches or use birth control and masturbate all the time and still say that homosexuality is a sin.

Exactly. There is no logical modern argument against same sex relationships and/or marriage except homophobia.

[raggedyanne]

Originally Posted by x-deviant-x

I'm thinking people are having a really difficult time grasping this. religious marriage and legal marriage are two entirely different things. The only one that stands up in court is legal marriage. the struggle is to separate the religious teachings from the legal definition.

Exactly. That is Auriel's problem. She just needs to calm down and read up on legal right's vs. religious acceptance

[raggedyanne]

Originally Posted by ~~Auriel~~

I seek the Ulimate Truth.

I am sorry, but the ultimate truth is something that no religion can give you. The ultimate truth is found in an absence of all opinion, of all bigotry and hate, and it cannot be found when you limit yourself by the teachings of an ancient book of scary stories to explain what the first people did not know. I do not say that I know the ultimate truth but I do know what will prevent you from ever finding it if it is what you are truly searching for.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by raggedyanne

I am sorry, but the ultimate truth is something that no religion can give you. The ultimate truth is found in an absence of all opinion, of all bigotry and hate, and it cannot be found when you limit yourself by the teachings of an ancient book of scary stories to explain what the first people did not know. I do not say that I know the ultimate truth but I do know what will prevent you from ever finding it if it is what you are truly searching for.

I like that you aren't a Zen Buddhist but you get what it is more than a lot of Buddhists do