Neil Gaiman defends man charged with L.oli Manga

[Wednesday Friday Addams]

Originally Posted by Steppenwolf

(Oooh , I see , so you are one of those Mr. Benedict agents undercover ...)
Nop ... That was more like it :
German guy #1 : Have you heard of this guy being arrested for having manga porn?
German guy #2 : Shit ... Where?
German guy #1 : Do you remember that fascist country , the ones who killed innocent iraki people , vietnam people , afghan people ...? The ones who arrested Timoty Leary and the ones who are responsible for global warming and the economic crisis?
German guy #2 : That can be only the USA!!! ... And now are they arresting people for drawing erotic manga? That is sooo usa ... They have no freedom of expresion , how I pity them ...

Is this Irony?
Because Germany has some retarded rules around hentai as well.

[Albert Mond]

Originally Posted by Wednesday Friday Addams

Is this Irony?
Because Germany has some retarded rules around hentai as well.

Wait... the guy's being arrested in AMERICA? But I thought it was legal there.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Steppenwolf

(Oooh , I see , so you are one of those Mr. Benedict agents undercover ...)
Nop ... That was more like it :
German guy #1 : Have you heard of this guy being arrested for having manga porn?
German guy #2 : Shit ... Where?
German guy #1 : Do you remember that fascist country , the ones who killed innocent iraki people , vietnam people , afghan people ...? The ones who arrested Timoty Leary and the ones who are responsible for global warming and the economic crisis?
German guy #2 : That can be only the USA!!! ... And now are they arresting people for drawing erotic manga? That is sooo usa ... They have no freedom of expresion , how I pity them ...

Mine was funny. This is just sad.

Epic Flail

[Steppenwolf]

Originally Posted by Wednesday Friday Addams

Is this Irony?
Because Germany has some retarded rules around hentai as well.

Sure , but you don't get arrested there just for having them . One of my friends had a thing for hentai and went to happily post about it everytime he felt like it None of the forum had ever any troubles with the german police , and some of them are even married men with kids .

[Albert Mond]

Iowa? What kind of shit IS this?

[Despanan]

Stepp, You DO realize that most European countries have stricter free-speech regulations than the US right?

That's why there was all the hubub about Tom Cruise going to germany to film a movie.

That's why we tried to trick Phred Phelps into going to Ireland. So he could be arrested. (Which is why he started www.godhatesireland.com)

America has done some dumbass things, like what I linked, but to claim our persecution of shitting dicknipples is a prime example of why there is anti-American sentiment abroad is just plain fucktarded.

[Steppenwolf]

Sure its fucktarded , I'd never say it's not .

[Steppenwolf]

The thing with Cruise had more to do with Scientology . You shouldn't compare this with arresting someone for having yaoi/hentai/whatever .
Why not? Because nobody arrested Cruise , they only gave him a bit of publicity , bad or good , which at the end will remember the folks that he is still alive .

[Despanan]

My point was that I doubt Europe is looking down on the US because of our government's position on l.loli.con

The rest was really more of a segway because you seem to think censorship and the like doesn't happen in Europe. Phred Phelps would have been jailed for hate-speech in Ireland. Tom Cruise certainly wouldn't have been arrested because he's one of the biggest stars in the world, the point was that the German government is more stringent than the US when it comes to certain free-speech laws, in this case, Scientology. It really only pertains to a small part of the conversation.

Basically I'm a little put-off by the gothings on here looking to Europe so often as some sort of paradise. Britian & the various countries that make up the EU are pretty nifty in my opinion, but they aren't some sort of golden-paved land where ultra-leftists frolic in pools of milk and honey.

[Utho]

Originally Posted by Despanan

My point was that I doubt Europe is looking down on the US because of our government's position on l.loli.con

Very much my impression.

Freedom of speech (no won´t be going down this slippery slope too far) in Germany is like "love thy neighbour", everybody heard of it.
The list of banned media is a library in itself.

But STEPPENWOLF had a point, because the people on the street do not know about the huge amount of banned things in our country. How should they?
So they believe in the freedom of their speech (as long as they say appropriate things), and on this basis they certainly judge over other countries. (People here are human beings.)
When mentioned in connection with local laws from the US that f.ex. prohibit beating women on Sundays and that put restrictions on when to dress cows in human clothes, ppl tend to see the Manga-discussion as fitting the general impression.

Also I could mention that I do not think ppl in Europe look down on the US or Americans. Amongst many intellectual Germans I found intense confusion about the internal developments of the US. "Massive incomprehesion", would come to my mind, when asked to describe the sentiment.

I believe Churchill phrased:
"Americans always try to do the right thing, after they´ve tried everything else."
And Hunter S. Thompson said:
"America... just a nation of two hundered used car salesmen with all the money we need to by guns and no qualms about killing anybody else in the world who tries to make us uncomfortable."
Them quotes probably describe the attitudes many german intellectuals have towards the US.

I will not touch on the subject Cruise/Scientology, because this would lead far off - but I agree with STEPPENWOLFs last statement.


@Despanan
You wrote:
"they aren't some sort of golden-paved land where ultra-leftists frolic in pools of milk and honey."

You are right. Pools of milk an honey would soon go bad. But old Europe differs in serveral ways from the US, although the gap seems to be shrinking.
So it is for a reason that many Americans find Eurpoe attractive.
And do not misttake me, there are countless in Germany and Europe that see the US as the earlthly paradise. - Ppl want, what they have not got; common phemonenon.
And I firmly believe it´s a good thing - because it leads people to broaden their horizons.

[lucylucy]

I agree with Gaiman. 'Nuff said.

[Despanan]

http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2008/1...ky-speech.html

Gaiman clarifies/defends his position here on his blog. It's kinda long, but I really like what he has to say here. Particularly his points about the law being "A Blunt Instrument".

[Fae-wolf]

Originally Posted by Despanan

http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2008/1...ky-speech.html

Gaiman clarifies/defends his position here on his blog. It's kinda long, but I really like what he has to say here. Particularly his points about the law being "A Blunt Instrument".

Thanks for that.


I have huge respect for Gaiman!!!

Anyways,

This whole is stupid! I have friends who love Yaoi! And, most of the Yaoi fans I hear about are actually FEMALE!!!

I don't understand why stuff like should be banned. What people read is their own bussiness. And, some the stuff has very good story plots.

It's not like it's actually pornography.

[Despanan]

ummm, it actually IS pornography.

[Fae-wolf]

Originally Posted by Despanan

ummm, it actually IS pornography.

Wait, i'm not so sure. Cuase the Yaoi I've seen has detailed sex scenes but they don't show the Penis. Then again, I'm not famaliar with some the titles in that the person is being accused of having.....
Either way, it's stupid.

[viscus]

Originally Posted by Fae-wolf

Wait, i'm not so sure. Cuase the Yaoi I've seen has detailed sex scenes but they don't show the Penis. Then again, I'm not famaliar with some the titles in that the person is being accused of having.....
Either way, it's stupid.

If you define pornography as graphic works intended to sexually arouse those who view them, then yes, yaoi is pornography.

[Fae-wolf]

Originally Posted by viscus

If you define pornography as graphic works intended to sexually arouse those who view them, then yes, yaoi is pornography.

oooh, okay.
Thanks

[Mealla]

Originally Posted by Saya

I sent this link to my ex and we talked about it for a bit, and he was telling me a few hentai sites do say "All characters are above the age of 18." o.O [Woman faints in the jury]

This reminds me of a webcomic I used to read featuring a chibi character who, in spite of appearances, was actually 40 years old. It was a running gag that she was sexually frustrated due to the fact that the only guys who wanted to do her were creepy pedo.philes.

This is a serious issue however. I see arguments like this as merely an attempt to gag free speech and artistic expression. Especially in the case of media that don't even involve real people. It's almost like people getting arrested for child pornography for taking pictures of their kids playing in the bathtub. You have to look at intent, and in the case of artwork, whether or not real people were involved.

[Drake Dun]

No harm, no foul, I say. Using real kids in pornography is one one thing, but drawings are just drawings.

[tyciol]

If anyone else is interested in more of Gaiman's opinion on this matter (while he was referenced, he seemed to be rather skimmed over in this MTV piece) he addresses the issue the month after in a blog post where he goes further into referencing an old post he made about Alan Moore's Lost Girls: http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2008/1...ky-speech.html

[Delkaetre]

Points for reference, from someone who has read hentai and yaoi.
loli- depiction of apparently underage female characters in sexual situations. Not my cup of tea.
shota- as above, but male. Still not my cup of tea
shonen ai- "boys' love", young males in affectionate and amorous situations, not always or even often leading to anything more graphic than kissing. Frequently stories of teen boys making journeys of self discovery. A bit slushy for me.
yaoi- graphic male/male sex in manga. Also includes male/tentacle, male/monster, male/ancient demon that somehow happens to look like a slightly feminine young man with tattoos. This can, on occasion, be my cup of tea. For one thing, the bondage comics give me great ideas for future outfits.
Shojo ai - girls' love, see shonen ai.
Yuri- graphic girl-on-girl action, often with a plot somewhere under it all.
Hentai- usually heterosexual, female as focus in highly graphic sexual situations. Also used as an umbrella term for all of the above.

And now you have learnt something.
And banning any of the above is silly, because people will always sketch and doodle and draw, and so long as their desires stay on paper instead of coercing others, they harm no one at all. Except, sometimes, their own reputations.

[ZyklonB]

Originally Posted by Delkaetre

Except, sometimes, their own reputations.

Haha, I liked that little bit.

[Beneath the Shadows]

I wonder... has anyone ever been arrested for possessing a copy of Stephen King's "It?" After all, that book has a section in which 13 (or so) year-old Beverly Marsh gets fucked by six boys of similar age, one after the other after the other.

Or is that acceptable?

[Duane]

Originally Posted by Beneath the Shadows

I wonder... has anyone ever been arrested for possessing a copy of Stephen King's "It?" After all, that book has a section in which 13 (or so) year-old Beverly Marsh gets fucked by six boys of similar age, one after the other after the other.

Or is that acceptable?

I'm sure their reasoning for this is that there's no illustrations of it in IT. maybe something more ridiculous.

[Beneath the Shadows]

Pornography (or obscenity) is not specifically visual in nature. An explicit short story about fucking would still constitute pornography.