Thousands protest in Europe at Gaza offensive

[PortraitOfSanity]

You're not even arguing with her you fucking moron, because you're misinterpreting what she's saying.

[mindless1]

who was that to?

[Drake Dun]

Originally Posted by Noirette

I don't think that most of the pople in Israel, even thtose who are for the war, think that this is the reason we live in this land.

I couldn't find any data diretly on point, but I got some stuff that's in the right area, and it supports my suspicion that religion is a large contributing factor in this equation. After all, why did they decide to make the Jewish homeland in Palestine, even though that was the one place in the world guaranteed to start the most trouble?

http://www.jcpa.org/dje/articles2/polls96.htm

50% of Israeli Jews said the "believe completely" that the Jews were chosen among peoples (unfortunately, the poll didn't ask about celestial real estate brokers).

http://www.gallup.com/poll/103378/Hi...ive-Peace.aspx

The more religious Israeli Jews support the peace process less.

http://www.pewforum.org/docs/?DocID=153#israel
http://www.gallup.com/poll/22063/Rep...ic-Israel.aspx
http://www.pewforum.org/docs/index.php?DocID=80

Around 50% of Americans believe that YHWH gave Israel to the Jews, and they're all the same people who express categorical support for Israel over Palestine. A lot of them want you guys to rebuild your temple so that you can be destroyed and Jesus can descend from the clouds to start the big end times party, lol. In the U.S., religiosity is a reliable indicator of support for Israel over Palestine.

Poke around the Internet and you'll find endless articles, forum threads, etc. in which both Israelis and Americans are saying that the Jews have a right to all of that land because God gave it to them. These beliefs have every appearance of being a huge factor in this conflict. Try this Google search:

israel "god gave"

Most of the results are from some Jew or Christian shooting off some shit like "God gave it to the Jews. It says so in the Bible. End of story." You simply can't talk to someone who bases their political decisions on what they think some invisible ruling spirit says. It makes them totally immune to reason. It's utterly poisoning our dialogue, and it may well be the single largest obstacle to world peace. Humanity needs to grow up, get real, and stop comparing the dick sizes of its respective tribal sky daddies. It's genocidal stupidity.

We really need a paradigm shift on this point. There is something seriously fucked up in a world where claims that you own a piece of land because it was given to your distant ancestors by a magic man are taken perfectly seriously in the mainstream and in the media, while simply pointing out that such a notion is hopelessly silly and insane provokes outrage and endless whining about "tolerance". We need to be able to call this stuff what it is - insanity, so we can get past it and start basing our politics on, oh I don't know, maybe the needs of real human beings or something like that.

BTW, the data I really wanted was on the views of Israelis specifically regarding the question of their religious connection with that particular piece of land. If anybody knows where to get it, I would be grateful.

[Noirette]

Why?

Because there was no better place than this that we could even try to build a homeland on.
Besides, it's the historical connection that matters. the Jewish clans lived here sone hundreds of years ago, and than the Britain gave their agreenant to the Zionists to create a homeland here, in Israel.

I'm living here, unlike you. In the everyday life, religious connection is not the main reason for this. Maybe for some people, but not for everyone.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by Noirette

First, Israel was created AFTER the holocaust and BECAUSE OF IT.

Second, many Plaestines were expressing their objection of this plan violentely, even thogh they had their opportunities to continue nagotiantions about creating a Palestinian land, from the very beggining of all of this, in the early 20's.

Check this in Wikipedia if you don't believe me, and stop being such a fucking Idealist.

Again, you echo my exact statement. Who gave the brits, or the 'league of nations' (readin: the previous 'coalition of the willing') the right to 'give away' lands that belonged to the Arab people to the jews who survived the holocaust?

As you said, the Palestinians were opposed to the idea even before it happened (your words exactly from the quote above). Why should they have to 'negotiate' for their homes? If the US or UK went to say Sweden today and said - we are moving in all the people who were affected by the tsunami into your hometowns and removing you from the lands, should they be expected to 'negotiate'? Once there is it ok if they start bombing the Swedes if the don't give up the rights to their lands, homes, businesses, and resources?

This is the crusades all over again, only this time it is happening in our lifetime. People from outside the Middle East coming in and thinking they have some god-given right to take ownership because of some ancient text they read. It's not fair, equal, or just.

The Palestinians are fighting it with the only means they have at their disposal - crappy rockets which obviously couldn't hit the broadside of a barn (they have fired off a few HUNDRED rockets in th past week and only killed ONE SINGLE PERSON), and of course when they can the suicide bomber.

Think about that - do you think it is an easy choice to make to become a suicide bomber? How fecked is your life if you decide to become one of those? How much damage does a nation have to do to you, your family, your people, your own personal life before you decide the only way you can help the ones around you is to kill yourself?

So the big question is, have you seen what israel has done and IS doing to the Palestinians on a daily basis to make them commit to such behaviour?

I suggest you watch two brilliant films that came out a year or two ago from the BBC - 'The Iron Wall' and 'The Killing Zone'. Both document the atrocities which so far haven't made the mainstream news in the west, that show some of the fecked stuff the IDF is doing to the Palestinians. Look at it first hand, see the stuff they are trying to keep out of the news, then maybe you will be able to grasp the reality here.

[Necrophagist]

[quote=Noirette Maybe for some people, but not for everyone.[/QUOTE]

Ever heard of the majority? You just said that ZIONISTS were " given " Palestine, so therefore they must be for the massacre of Palestinians due to religious reasons.

[Noirette]

Not even the majority, dear.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Again, you echo my exact statement. Who gave the brits, or the 'league of nations' (readin: the previous 'coalition of the willing') the right to 'give away' lands that belonged to the Arab people to the jews who survived the holocaust?

'Cause they owned it:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Ottoman rule over the eastern Mediterranean lasted until World War I when the Ottomans sided with Germany and the Central Powers. During World War I, the Ottomans were driven from much of the region by the United Kingdom during the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire...The British-led Egyptian Expeditionary Force, commanded by Edmund Allenby, captured Jerusalem on 9 December 1917 and occupied the whole of the Levant following the defeat of Turkish forces in Palestine at the Battle of Megiddo in September 1918 and the capitulation of Turkey on 31 October.

See, This is why I describe your politics as "Batshit Insane". You ignore context, seem more concerned with pushing your own agenda than with actually looking at a political situation objectively, and still find time to take a pot-shot at America, even when they have little to do with the discussion at hand.

The British legally owned the land, which they had conquered, and were given a mandate from The League of Nations (Which was essentially the UN without America's participation) to establish a homeland for the Jews. The need for this homeland was driven home by the Holocaust, and thus Israel was founded, in accordance with international law.

If you dispute the authority of the League of Nations in this matter, then you dispute the authority of the United Nations in the world today, and then you'll have to stop bitching if some country ignores a UN resolution.

No matter how many times you say it, Israel is not going to suddenly become an illegal country man, I'm sorry.

[PortraitOfSanity]

Wasn't the League of Nations disbanded before the UN was formed?

[Despanan]

After a number of notable successes and some early failures in the 1920s, the League ultimately proved incapable of preventing aggression by the Axis powers in the 1930s. The onset of the Second World War suggested that the League had failed in its primary purpose, which was to avoid any future world war. The United Nations replaced it after the end of the war and inherited a number of agencies and organizations founded by the League.

Why do I bother posting these links if no one reads them?

Clearly despite all that unbiased, Irish news Sterrn has less understanding of history than an American seventh-grader.

The League essentially became the UN. The UN is pretty much just the League with balls.

[Despanan]

Stupid 5 minute rule:

So the Britsh own the land, the International community says: "Hey, it would be a good idea to set up a Jewish Homeland 'cause people in Europe don't like Jews." England says: "I'll get right on that"

Then Hitler wipes out 2/3 of all Jews in the world.

Everone says: "HOLY FUCK get them a homeland NOW. Hey Britian? You know that land you have that you aren't using? Give that to them They've got a history there or something."

Britian then says: "okay, but we already have people living on it."

Everyone else says: "Shit, well ask them to move over. Give half the land to the Jews and half they get to keep"

Israel is formed and the UN Partition Plan is put into effect.

Palestinians, Syria, Egypt, and Jordan say: "Fuck the UN and Fuck the Jews. That's our land" and attack. Israel kicks their ass over and over again. Egypt Steals more land for itself from the Palestinians. The Israelis say fuck off, and everyone involved continues to be a dick. Hence the clusterfuck we have today.

[Necrophagist]

What I'm more concerned about is the military massacres.

[Despanan]

As are we all, but you're not going to put a stop to it without understanding the situation and the people involved, and you're certainly not going to reach any descision that doesn't result in genocide by pretending that the Israelis don't have a right to be there.

[Necrophagist]

Only sternn said they don't have right to be there...

[Despanan]

...Which was half the reason for posting the history of the conflict.

Do I need to draw you a picture or something?

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Despanan

...Which was half the reason for posting the history of the conflict.

Do I need to draw you a picture or something?

I would love for you to draw me a mother fucking picture.

[Necrophagist]

Yes, draw me a picture, preferably of poisonedblueeyes.