Why "no kill" and 90% of what P.E.T.A says is bullshit - Page 5

isobel black · 03-17-2009, 07:47 AM

Whoa, if you feel the need to give me this much shit I wouldn't want to see what you say to the ignorant masses who choose to be oblivious about animal suffering.

What do you want me to say, mate? I commend you for having the strength to stick to a vegan diet, please try to see I'm just trying to find something that works for ME.

Saya · 03-17-2009, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isobel black

Whoa, if you feel the need to give me this much shit I wouldn't want to see what you say to the ignorant masses who choose to be oblivious about animal suffering.

What do you want me to say, mate? I commend you for having the strength to stick to a vegan diet, please try to see I'm just trying to find something that works for ME.

Hahaahaha, I'm not strong for sticking to a vegan diet, as I have very little will power for much at all, and I didn't decide to go vegan until JCC pointed out what a hypocrite I was and I realized how easy it would be. My only strength might be is that if I know that I'm being a hypocrite I'm able to admit defeat and change it.

To the ignorant masses, I get a lot of "I know its horrible but I honestly don't care." I don't say much to them because there's not much I can say, if they don't feel compassion they don't feel compassion, I can't force them to feel that. Its the people who pretend that they are compassionate because "I only eat happy meat!" that bothers me, as with all forms of hypocrisy do.

isobel black · 03-17-2009, 07:59 AM

Ok, I get that I'm a hypocrite in your eyes, and maybe you're right. But if you can accept the ignorant masses' lack of compassion, I don't get why my trying to find some middle ground bothers you this much.

Saya · 03-17-2009, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isobel black

Ok, I get that I'm a hypocrite in your eyes, and maybe you're right. But if you can accept the ignorant masses' lack of compassion, I don't get why my trying to find some middle ground bothers you this much.

Where's the middle ground? Either you think animals have a right to live and you refuse to kill them, or you believe that you have the right to demand the deaths of animals so you can have the pleasure of eating their flesh. And I don't accept their lack of compassion, I just know that there's nothing I can do, just like you can't accept someone's racism or sexism.

Underwater Ophelia · 03-17-2009, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isobel black

Ok, I get that I'm a hypocrite in your eyes, and maybe you're right. But if you can accept the ignorant masses' lack of compassion, I don't get why my trying to find some middle ground bothers you this much.

You definitely are a hypocrite.

isobel black · 03-17-2009, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saya

Where's the middle ground? Either you think animals have a right to live and you refuse to kill them, or you believe that you have the right to demand the deaths of animals so you can have the pleasure of eating their flesh.

But we're talking about domesticated animals here, that have evolved into livestock. They have no natural habitat or behavioural pattern to return to. I don't exactly agree that by treating them well before we kill them, we are denying their right to live.

Saya · 03-17-2009, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isobel black

But we're talking about domesticated animals here, that have evolved into livestock. They have no natural habitat or behavioural pattern to return to. I don't exactly agree that by treating them well before we kill them, we are denying their right to live.

So if I am nice to a person before I murder them, its not murder?

The average beef cow lives somewhere between 15-20 months. In nature a cow will live on average between 15-20 years, the oldest cow ever lived to be 48 years old. Chickens can live to five years but an egg laying hen is usually culled after a year of life as that is usually when she starts laying less eggs, a meat chicken is allowed to live only a few weeks. A dairy cow on average lives to be seven. A dairy cow must give birth to give milk, and her calves are taken away, the females to become dairy cows themselves and the males to become veal, and he will only live six months. We do not let animals live their full lives, we do not let these animals breed on their own (we control their numbers with artificial insemination) and we selectively breed them so that the chickens will have a huge breast and cows will have large udders, we allow very few male bulls to live, and usually only so that their sperm can be taken, if a stud bull has offspring that is not up to standard we then kill him. Even free range dairy cows are artificially inseminated and have their babies taken from them. And yet you say despite all of this, you are not "denying their right to live" by killing them?

And yeah, wild bovine don't exist at all. And we can't just, you know, STOP BREEDING THEM.

isobel black · 03-17-2009, 08:39 AM

Out of curiosity, would you also be opposed to humans killing animals in a hunter/gatherer situation?

Saya · 03-17-2009, 08:45 AM

Depends on if its a survival situation or not. deadman_walking going out in the woods and shooting a wild animal just because guns are all he has? He has no right to kill an animal just because he's tired of shooting at tin cans or whatever he shoots at, or like other people say "I hunt because it makes me feel closer to nature" o.O

But in survival situations? Its sad, but in cases where its kill or die morality tends to crumble. I'm okay with cannibalism if it comes down to that too.

isobel black · 03-17-2009, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saya

Depends on if its a survival situation or not.

I meant more like hypothetically, if we could somehow revert to a hunter/gatherer society as a whole, where we kill only wild animals, and only those animals we need for sustenance, no more.

Saya · 03-17-2009, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isobel black

I meant more like hypothetically, if we could somehow revert to a hunter/gatherer society as whole, where we kill only wild animals, and only those animals we need for sustenance, no more.

Why on earth would we do that? So we can go back to the good old days where we lived to be thirty?

isobel black · 03-17-2009, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saya

Why on earth would we do that? So we can go back to the good old days where we lived to be thirty?

Lol, no, I don't mean we would WANT to do that. I wanted to know how you feel about killing animals in such a context.

It's silly, and futile, anyway, so nevermind.

You're probably right, but like I said, this is something I'm trying to come to terms with personally. I promise I won't claim to value animal life as much as human life until I go vegan.

Underwater Ophelia · 03-17-2009, 09:13 AM

Value?
It's stupid to say that animals are as valuable as humans.

Despanan · 03-17-2009, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saya

There's been at least one, according to the adverts for Tofurky!

http://www.tofurky.com/products/jurky.htm

And the only difference between animal and vegetable protein is all animal proteins have all amino acids while only soy and quinoa and a few others (can't remember) have complete, otherwise it needs to be combined. However seitan is awesome for protein shakes I'm told.

Wait, is she a thru-hiker or a 2000-miler? You can consider yourself a thru-hiker if you at least try to hike it all in one go. You don't have to suceed.

As for vegan thru-hikers, it's a pretty hippyish thing to do. I met quite a few vegans/vegitarians who considered themselves thru-hikers. NONE of the ones who finished stayed true to their diets to my knowledge. They either skipped large sections, quit, or were eating meat by the end. this includes religious, moral, and "health" vegitarians/vegans.

I'm not saying you can't do it. Hell there were two sisters who hiked the whole thing bare-footed and another guy who carried a tuba the whole way, I'm just saying you make things unnecessarily hard on yourself.

If you're a vegan who can afford to buy six-months worth of insanely expensive (and it IS trust me), specialty vegan hiker food, and you have someone back home who will go through all the trouble of mailing you your food every week, and you want to fuck with your schedual like that, go for it.

Mir · 03-17-2009, 10:01 AM

Many are far more valuable. But, that is more to do with the human, and the value they add to our society, than anything else.

Saya · 03-17-2009, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Despanan

Wait, is she a thru-hiker or a 2000-miler? You can consider yourself a thru-hiker if you at least try to hike it all in one go. You don't have to suceed.

As for vegan thru-hikers, it's a pretty hippyish thing to do. I met quite a few vegans/vegitarians who considered themselves thru-hikers. NONE of the ones who finished stayed true to their diets to my knowledge. They either skipped large sections, quit, or were eating meat by the end. this includes religious, moral, and "health" vegitarians/vegans.

I'm not saying you can't do it. Hell there were two sisters who hiked the whole thing bare-footed and another guy who carried a tuba the whole way, I'm just saying you make things unnecessarily hard on yourself.

If you're a vegan who can afford to buy six-months worth of insanely expensive (and it IS trust me), specialty vegan hiker food, and you have someone back home who will go through all the trouble of mailing you your food every week, and you want to fuck with your schedual like that, go for it.

Her testimonial says thru hiker, what that means to you hippies I don't know :P. And dude, I was quite in love with the idea of a vegan lady hiking in the Appalachians running into these situations, don't take it away from me:

"Want some jerky?"
"No thanks, I'm vegan."
"You're vegan but you're a thru hiker? How do you do it?"
"Why, with TOFURKY of course!!!"
(she then presents the Tofurky bar and eighties infomercial music plays, while the meaty jerky wilts in envy of the awesome power of Tofurky.).

Saya · 04-03-2009, 08:55 PM

Sorry to resurrect and talk more about PeTA, but I just saw this video and it made me really mad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFF6F...e=channel_page

The animals didn't even make it to the shelter, they just killed them and dumped the bodies in garbage bags.

Apathy's_Child · 04-14-2009, 03:23 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/Musi...pet.shop.boys/

Saya · 04-14-2009, 03:42 PM

Yeah, I saw that. Who's next, Meatloaf?

http://kotaku.com/5201889/peta-prote...ld-of-warcraft

They also arranged an anti-seal hunt event in World Of Warcraft, something about how Thrall won't stop the seal hunt in Northrend despite Alliance demands, as Ogrimmar makes a lot of money from the fur.

Because you know, there aren't millions of quests that require you to kill animals and skin them, not in WoW.

Cicero · 04-14-2009, 07:49 PM

Hahahaha, so if I still played WoW I could take my hunter on her mount which is inhumanely FORCED to carry her up to where these seal killers are, then use my captive pet to slaughter them, along the way killing countless other beasts and skinning them for valuable leather? All for PETA?

04-15-2009, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saya

Where's the middle ground? Either you think animals have a right to live and you refuse to kill them, or you believe that you have the right to demand the deaths of animals so you can have the pleasure of eating their flesh. And I don't accept their lack of compassion, I just know that there's nothing I can do, just like you can't accept someone's racism or sexism.

Saya, there's nothing wrong with eating meat.

However, what is wrong is that most animals raised on factory-farms suffer throughout their lifes until they're slaughtered.

Saya · 04-15-2009, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bonquisha Brown

Saya, there's nothing wrong with eating meat.

However, what is wrong is that most animals raised on factory-farms suffer throughout their lifes until they're slaughtered.

Animals born into a world through artificial insemination, seperated from their mothers at a young age, living only a little while before being packed in a truck and sent to hang upside down while its throat is slit, even on non factory farms this is the reality and its bull to say there is no suffering. Even if you could somehow make the animals happy in their short short lives, you are bringing in a life into the world that cannot sustain it and killing it just for your lust, how is that not wrong? All beings have self preservation in mind, all beings tremble before pain and death, and yet you would impose your want for a unhealthy meal over the will to live of an animal.

JCC · 04-15-2009, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bonquisha Brown

Saya, there's nothing wrong with eating meat.

What a fantastic argument, Bonquisha.

Deadmanwalking_05 · 04-15-2009, 06:22 AM

Should changed the name of this shit hole to Bleedinghearts.net

Saya · 04-15-2009, 06:30 AM

Yeah, might be suiting seeing the amount of bad prose of yours we had to sit through as you recounted how the only chick in the world willing to bang you left you one day.