Pandora's Box *Submissions here*

[Disfunction]

No harm meant by this, Juliet, but there's an official thread for poetry located in the Literature forum.

https://www.gothic.net/boards/showthread.php?t=685

For future reference, this is the appropriate location for posting such.

The rebuttal is mine, and I thank you, Jules.

I’ll preface by saying I was suspicious because…you took the weakest piece of prose I’ve seen posted on this sight in my two years here (with the exception of Nicolas Paccione’s work) and gave a short, content driven edit of it. In the animal kingdom this is known as the circle of life, where the big predatory cat culls the small, puny herd beast from the pack. So, in my mind, what I saw was you targeting the less experienced, and trying to gain from that exploitation.

Because, like I said, at this end of the spectrum an editor is a commodity the writer can’t afford the luxury of, and if I were to simileize it in a crass, analogical form, I’d say it was like having an ass with three different assholes, one to shit out each major meal of the day.

Where the one would suffice by itself.

The fact of the matter is that I see no use for free-lance editors. Especially in this context. I lump them in with vanity publications, pay to enter writing competitions, and AMWAY. I may be more receptive of the idea if the editor could provide information stating his or her edits caused nearly every story or novel he or she edited to become published at the professional paying rate, and I would also like to see some token gesture of screening and refusal for sub-par material. A client base of top-tier talent. Let’s face facts, a free-lance editor is not raking in the dough, and his or her best course of action would be to discover new talent, facilitate their growth, and when they break in big hitch along and get picked up with the author to become a regularly paid in house editor.

What you are offering, from what I can tell, is the same (different brand) snake oil I’ve seen so much of.

But I could be wrong, and my opinnion is based on the market (in general) and not on you as a person. As I said earlier, I really want to like you.

Originally Posted by Disfunction

No harm meant by this, Juliet, but there's an official thread for poetry located in the Literature forum.

https://www.gothic.net/boards/showthread.php?t=685

For future reference, this is the appropriate location for posting such.

I know Disfunction, and I plan to add it there, but I felt I should put myself on the line.

Thanks again

Jules

[TheKorovaMilkbar]

Originally Posted by TStone

I do, however, still trade in edits for edits. My criteria for that is the writer has to be near my level, willing to piss me off with blunt force honesty, and able to receive the same blunt force honesty in return.

That sounds like a good policy. Well said TStone.

Originally Posted by Lord Dagon

I don't see what the quarrel is between the two of you...
TStone, you and Juliet have made good points, but this is insane.
Let Juliet charge and give criteria if he (or she) desires. TStone, keep making your points, yet Juliet will strike back, and it might never end..

OK, forget what I said earlier. You CAN call me MR...and, on a side note, are you related to dramaelf?

See, what we are doing, Jules and I, is called debating. She highlights the points of her side, I highlight the points of mine, and we both try to gain insight and enlightenment.

AND SINCE I’M SICK AND FUCKING TIRED OF YOU GODDAMN EMOESQUE NOOBS whining and complaining that we all just get along, giving me your fucking Thumper eyes and lamenting, “If you don’t have anything nice to say then don’t say anything at all,” and in general making a nuisance of yourselves by TRYING to feign emotional distress…perhaps you should have been hugged more as a child?

Perhaps, just perhaps, youzes mommies and daddies should have hugged you a little more frequently and a little more forcefully…straddled over youzes chest, with a pillow clenched between white-knuckled fists.

So a warning to you, Lord Dagon, I am at the end of my youth tolerance for this emoesque fucking behavior, which has been all too prevalent here of late. Either adopt a different shtick, or be prepared for a lambasting.

Tstone, all I can say is that is my dream. I plan to dedicate my life to this genre because I am sick and tired of capitalist publishing houses telling us that horror is dead unless you are Stephen King's bastard child. I don't know what the market is like where you are, but over here you have to call yourself a dark fantasy author just so they will open the envelope. I can tell you that I personally don't have the time to pull apart something that is badly written. I do decline work that appears to be a first draft. I posted my opinion on that other piece because it was the first one I came across. I then moved on and looked at others and thought this would be a better way to be useful. The freelance editor you decribe that fosters talent and gets them published is a literary agent. A different job altogether, and they get paid a percentage.

As I stated earlier, I want my own publishing firm where writers like us will not only be welcome, they will be preferred. I am prepared to spent tens of thousands of dollars and 6 -10 years of my life to see that dream come to fruition. When it does, I'll be sure to let you know when it's open to submissions.

I see a deficiency in the modern publishing system and I'm going to try and do something about it. You are absolutely right, the market sucks, so I'm going to create one. They say politics is about perception, so is publishing.

Jules

I must admit TStone, you give good debate.

Jules.

Oh I agree with your market analysis. The 80’s and early 90’s didn’t help the perception of the genre, what with titles like Junkyard Rats, The Monster that Monstered Monster, and overall a disingenuous surplus of shit on the shelves just because there was a demand for it but no checks and balances to ensure the product was worthy of the demand.

And the genre suffers to this day because of those mistakes, because of greedy bean counters, and people who had no fucking business, in the business.

Still, I’m not sure I can see how your master plan can come to fruition. Yes, I do know I was speaking (generally) of an agent earlier, but in this business the lines of definition become so blurred—agents who are writers, writers who are editors, editors who are publishers—and so I tried to equate how one could become a successful free-lance editor (without filching his or her peers) in this business, and every way I looked I kept coming back to the same market model.

Find the talent, build a client base and fan base, and cash check.

You did, however, put me more at ease with your response of declining badly written work. That is one of the traits and tells I mentioned earlier, which I had been looking for and hoping to see. Also, your love of the craft and genre seem both genuine and sanguine, and I wish you luck. I’m just not sure how you are going to do what you want with the current hats atop your head.

I know you need cash to open your own publishing house, and editing is one way to get it, but I don’t know many semi or professional writers (on the mid to bottom scale) who would be willing to pay someone to edit their work, and the top scale authors are using their house’s editors, or their personal buddies whom they pay nice *drools* large sums to. Maybe the climate and market is different there, but here we (the small and moderate fish of the writing community) look dubiously at the type of services you’re offering—and the clients who would be willing to partake of your services would be the same ones who could only get published through a vanity service—so guilt by simple association would not allow you to get the level of talent and scope of work that would bolster your networking black book and enable you to start a new house with the types of writers you are hoping to publish.

Most of us (writers) are under the misconception people need to pay US to write, and so you see where my skepticism comes from? But, as I also said earlier, if you can produce a list of clients and work that has been published (at the professional rates) immediately after you applied your talents…then that skepticism would fastly disappear.

I would like to see you succeed, Bob knows there is no shortage of talent but there is a veritable void of available outlets to showcase that talent, and I just can’t wrap my brain around how you can accomplish what you suggested with the purposed model.

But your heart seems to be in the right place, and so I’ll leave you to your own designs…and hope it works out for you. Besides, it’s late, and I just do not have the energy to continue pontification about this right now :}

G’night, and good luck.

I will offer you a quick reply to set your head to rest once and for all. My client base is made up from referrals from printers who don't offer editorial services. When people come to them for proofreading, editing etc. they are referred to me. At this point they believe they are ready for it and have put aside funds to facilitate it. If it too rough, I offer free advice for them to apply so they have a better chance at sucess. I also have commercial clients and that is where most of my money is made.

I thank you for your good wishes and in turn wish you luck and a nightmare driven sleep should that be a means of inspiration for you. If not then sleep well.

Jules

[Soul_Immortal]

That was dirty. I see an innocent debate turning bloody, but I'll not instigate. Wait, whats this?

"Writer seeking masochistic online text and gorey filch."

Off to the presses...=)

[BlueMoon]

This debate is great

warms my heart to read something sharp

lol, I'm glad you enjoyed it BlueMoon. Nothing beats a good debate.

Perhaps we should start a thread where people can share their negative experiences where they feel the Intellectual Property has been infringed or they have just been ripped off by some con artist? This way we can help stop others from being ripped off in the future. The main thing to remember is that we can say 'I don't recommend ... My experience was...' If personal attacks are made, it can lead to slander etc and more trouble for the writer. Any positive recommendations should be saved for Shill. What do you think?

Jules

[Alain]

I'm just really impressed that this debate was accompanied by accurate punctuation and logical points. Far above and beyond the witty "fcuk your mum!" arguments that proliferate on message boards.

*applauds*

My thanks to both of you.