If you eat meat, would you be willing to kill an animal to continue to be able to?

[Seidre]

Seidre, nature as an entity does not exist. The nature you describe as the basis for your morality exists only in your mind and as a justification for your actions.

Agreed. I just think that if we’re biologically programmed to be a certain way, then it isn’t wrong. That doesn’t mean there aren’t better alternatives, just that it isn’t immoral. That’s really the whole point I’ve been trying to make. And morality is not absolute, it’s only an opinion. That’s just the way I choose to look at things.

You call chimps savages for killing other types of monkey to survive, despite that this occurs "naturally" in every sense of the word: without outside intervention; in the utilitarian sense of capacity for nourishment; in the sense that the animals suffer no physical or psychological blowback for their actions, etc. Yet, despite your round condemnation on a moral level of this animal's natural behavior, you are unable or unwilling to apply this same standard to yourself. Why?

0_o I don’t condemn chimps for killing monkeys…I did agree that they were more savage than gorillas, but I did not call them savages or condemn them in any way.

[Solumina]

One thing that I have been told over and over again that really aggravates me is that the only thing that you get from eating meat that you can't naturally get from eating a vegan diet is B12, while this in and of itself is true it leaves out a hell of a lot of information. For instance you can get amino acids from plants but they aren't quite in the same form, though most people have no problem breaking them down there are people out there who can't break them down and there are people who don't process plant proteins as well as those from animals. I happen to be one of those people. I tried a vegan diet, with the guidance of a nutritionist I still was not able to find a way to feel healthy without a few animal proteins a week (and yes I was taking B12 supplements). Additionally human beings don't process vitamin supplements nearly as well as we process vitamins in their natural source.

I'm not trying to tell other people to eat meat, if being vegan works for you then that is wonderful but it doesn't make you better than people who do eat meat. Yes large scale farming does hurt the environment but smaller farms can actually have environmental benefits in depending on the exact type of farming as well as the area where the farm is located. As stated by many other people there are abundant sources of animal protein out there even if you avoid anything that has been farmed, sure a lot of people get a little grossed out by "strange" food sources but they shouldn't be discounted as viable options.

*note: sorry that kind of turned into a mini rant this just happens to be something that gets under my skin.

[Solumina]

Originally Posted by Seidre

I don’t condemn chimps for killing monkeys…I did agree that they were more savage than gorillas, but I did not call them savages or condemn them in any way.

If that's the case then you may want to work on word choice

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by The Donor

Hell yes, and I love the thought of the muscle and where it was positioned on the body of the animal. I've never done the slaughter myself but that's because the opportunity never arose, I would love to. I wouldn't just eat the flesh though, there's plenty of uses for the skin and bones. And the majority of the vital organs would probably be good too. Organs such as the bladder could go to waste I suppose.

While we're on the subject, live snail really isn't an advisable meal. It doesn't have a taste but the texture is horrible and it's really sticky so it gets all stuck in your teeth.
Not something I'll do again and not something I'd advise. If anyone's tried cooked snail I'd like to hear about that

I overpeppered mine, so I wouldn't know about the taste.
The chewiness was nearly intolerable.

[Mr E Nigma]

Saya was in fact the first person to call chimps savages. Seidre merely agreed that they were the more savage type of the 2 species. You can use ctrl+f or cmd+f if you use a mac to find this on page 6.

That goes to the guy on page 6 as well that addressed Seidre in saying she called chimps savages, then went on to say he liked Saya more because he agreed with her views.

Ah, yes, it was Blackwater...

Your reasoning fails on many levels. You call chimps savages for killing other types of monkey to survive, despite that this occurs "naturally" in every sense of the word: without outside intervention; in the utilitarian sense of capacity for nourishment; in the sense that the animals suffer no physical or psychological blowback for their actions, etc. Yet, despite your round condemnation on a moral level of this animal's natural behavior, you are unable or unwilling to apply this same standard to yourself. Why?

Also, Saya, I've decided I like you. After every post, I found my thoughts mirrored in your words. Please continue to do so, as you have saved me untold strain on my typing fingers

Blackwater, be sure that when you condemn someone for saying something, that you don't make yourself look like a hypocritical dumb ass by saying you agree with the person who hold the exact same view you condemned someone else for.

Although it does make for a good laugh...

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Mr E Nigma

Yeah... but it is subjective... ethics is if anything, opinions.

And really... I'm pretty sure most people eat certain foods because to that person it tastes delicious. So yeah, eating anything doesn't really need an argument apart from "I enjoy it"

People ask me why I don't drink coke, but instead I drink sprite or orange soda... because I enjoy it more. The reason I generally eat anything is for taste. You'd choose an apple over an orange if you found the apple more delicious. A lot of people enjoy chicken over tofu, so it's generally what they go for.

It really is as simple as that... food is if anything.. subjective. Ethics and all...

It breaks my heart that you would consider the slaughter of ten billion beings a year in your country alone is comparable to "I like coke". The **** of the environment is like liking Pepsi.

Originally Posted by Solumina

One thing that I have been told over and over again that really aggravates me is that the only thing that you get from eating meat that you can't naturally get from eating a vegan diet is B12, while this in and of itself is true it leaves out a hell of a lot of information. For instance you can get amino acids from plants but they aren't quite in the same form, though most people have no problem breaking them down there are people out there who can't break them down and there are people who don't process plant proteins as well as those from animals. I happen to be one of those people. I tried a vegan diet, with the guidance of a nutritionist I still was not able to find a way to feel healthy without a few animal proteins a week (and yes I was taking B12 supplements). Additionally human beings don't process vitamin supplements nearly as well as we process vitamins in their natural source.

I'm not trying to tell other people to eat meat, if being vegan works for you then that is wonderful but it doesn't make you better than people who do eat meat. Yes large scale farming does hurt the environment but smaller farms can actually have environmental benefits in depending on the exact type of farming as well as the area where the farm is located. As stated by many other people there are abundant sources of animal protein out there even if you avoid anything that has been farmed, sure a lot of people get a little grossed out by "strange" food sources but they shouldn't be discounted as viable options.

*note: sorry that kind of turned into a mini rant this just happens to be something that gets under my skin.

Because it simply isn't true. Animal protein has complete amino acids but so does a number of veggies like tofu and quinoa. As long as it gets complete amino acids, as you should unless you're eating the same thing every day, and getting absolutely no variety. The most common problem when starting a vegan diet is usually not getting enough calories or fats, but proteins should never be lacking, some even have to try and keep the protein down as too much of it (as a lot of people have) puts stress on the kidneys and leeches calcium from bones. Both plant and animal protein are digested the same way, just broken down in the stomach with hydrocloric acid. Perhaps the sudden switch to a high fiber diet deterred digestion in general but otherwise I cannot for the life of me understand why you would have specific problems all your life with plant protein.

[Mr E Nigma]

It breaks my heart that you would consider the slaughter of ten billion beings a year in your country alone is comparable to "I like coke". The **** of the environment is like liking Pepsi.

I never said I liked that that's true... I never said I approve of what they do to animals. But that's reality sweety... And if you're so naive to think that's not why people eat meat. Then you don't have enough of a grip on reality as you thought. If you think there's some deeper reason as to why people choose to eat meat, you're sadly mistaken.

Really, Saya.. You don't think that's a good comparison? I do. And honestly it shows how fucked up our society is. That they, in fact, do choose chicken over tofu. Just as easily as they'd choose pepsi over coke. Simply for taste.

Actually I think you'd be a huge supporter of using that comparison. It would if anything help your point. People are so fucked up that a choice like slaughtering animals and eating meat instead of eating non-meat products is on the same level as picking between pepsi and coke... Which is pretty damn sad. That the importance of both is on the same level to the majority of society.

[honeythorn]

Originally Posted by Saya

I don't know how you imagine "smaller communities" are better conservatives, I'm from a place where we do have small local farms that no one will eat from because they can hear the animals screaming from the slaughterhouse, each year we're getting less and less fish, and they will defend to the death their right to kill baby seals and skin them, then leave their bodies behind.

I didn't say they were better.Do you even read what I'm writing here? Just because the small farms in YOUR area do not go about slaughter in a humane way, does not mean other places are the same. Or will be.

You did state that we evolved to need protein from meat.

Well then eat nothing but organic, because EVERYTHING has additives, proteins and vitamins, even your drinking water. And there's nothing natural about farming to boot.

No, I said that at some point human beings may have needed it or felt they did, if not, they wouldn't have done it. I also said that meat was not the only source of protien. It could be that other sources of protien were scarce for some time, at which point human beings started to hunt in order to get their protien requirements. I DID NOT state that meat based protien was better for you.

I do eat organic chicken. I don't eat pork beef or lamb as I do not like the taste of it. I have tried venison ( partly why I brought up the deer scenario ) and though it's VERY rare I eat it, I do prefer the taste over beef, and I know that anmal has been born,lived it's life as it's supposed to in the wild , and since they are shot and not hunted with dogs any longer, it's death is quick. It is a requirement to be a good marksman when shooting deer, and people are trained to take a head or heart shot.

Why on earth would yo do that? Are people really going to give their egg shells back to their local farmer? Is the farmer who is already overworked really going to take time to go around collecting the egg shells when his customers are done?

YOU were the one who mentioned pet chickens .

A lot of people who own pet chickens will let the chickens eat their own eggs so they can reclaim the calcium and other nutrients they lose, but since we're taking their eggs, this is chronic.

So I also referred to pet chickens when I spoke of crushing the shells. How is crushing shells for mixing with grit ( which birds ingest anyway to help with digestion ) bothering the birds?

Do not put words into my mouth.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Mr E Nigma

I never said I liked that that's true... I never said I approve of what they do to animals. But that's reality sweety... And if you're so naive to think that's not why people eat meat. Then you don't have enough of a grip on reality as you thought. If you think there's some deeper reason as to why people choose to eat meat, you're sadly mistaken.

Really, Saya.. You don't think that's a good comparison? I do. And honestly it shows how fucked up our society is. That they, in fact, do choose chicken over tofu. Just as easily as they'd choose pepsi over coke. Simply for taste.

Actually I think you'd be a huge supporter of using that comparison. It would if anything help your point. People are so fucked up that a choice like slaughtering animals and eating meat instead of eating non-meat products is on the same level as picking between pepsi and coke... Which is pretty damn sad. That the importance of both is on the same level to the majority of society.

I don't think there's a deeper reason, and thats why it is so fucked up. You support an industry like that thats bad for the animals, the environment, and probably your health, and no one cares, so long as they can stuff their fat faces with the rotting dead remains of a cow that went through a life time of pain. Something so big is trivialized down to "well I just like chicken better so I'm going to keep giving my money to industries that abuse billions of them."

Originally Posted by honeythorn

I didn't say they were better.Do you even read what I'm writing here? Just because the small farms in YOUR area do not go about slaughter in a humane way, does not mean other places are the same. Or will be.

Just like there can be "humane" slave owners, I guess, but there's a reason thats illegal, it puts you in a position of power over another being's life that did not give consent and cannot give consent. Once again, for no other reason than to stuff your face with crap you don't need.

I do eat organic chicken. I don't eat pork beef or lamb as I do not like the taste of it. I have tried venison ( partly why I brought up the deer scenario ) and though it's VERY rare I eat it, I do prefer the taste over beef, and I know that anmal has been born,lived it's life as it's supposed to in the wild , and since they are shot and not hunted with dogs any longer, it's death is quick. It is a requirement to be a good marksman when shooting deer, and people are trained to take a head or heart shot.

Yup, not like that deer had a life of its own or self interest in preserving its life. Not like it can feel, love, had a family, as long as its killed swiftly its humane and peachy.

So I also referred to pet chickens when I spoke of crushing the shells. How is crushing shells for mixing with grit ( which birds ingest anyway to help with digestion ) bothering the birds?

You ARE keeping them in a property and using them for your own ends. How does that not spell exploitation to you? Plus not to mention chickens need a lot of running space, a shelter with nesting materials, a rooster and veterinary care as like we've discussed, they are plagued with a plethora of health problems. And what to do with them in a year of their life when they don't lay as much eggs? What about when the rooster impregnates them and there's little chicks running around? You can only have one male on the property as roosters will fight over the harem, and the chickens need a rooster as he will protect them predators. But lets say you shell out the money to get your rooster fixed, what about when the chickens cannot lay eggs anymore? All the extra chickens might make you give them away or put them up for adoption, and our already stressed out shelters will have to deal with unwanted chickens along with the already abandoned dogs, cats and rabbits. How will they shelter a "useless" chicken that can't lay any eggs? Already the egg industry will kill them, and grind the male chicks alive in a machine. That is to say unless you do the "humane" thing and kill the chickens when they are overcrowded or no longer needed. And not to mention lots of towns have bans on keeping chickens as chicken feed attracts rats in the first place.

[The Donor]

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

I overpeppered mine, so I wouldn't know about the taste.
The chewiness was nearly intolerable.

I wouldn't expect the taste to be much different unless they were cooked in some kind of sauce. I'm guessing you didn't eat the shell? I had to because it was still alive but it wasn't as bad as you might think. The worst part was having it stuck to your teeth for about half hour, and dry retching every time I saw one for the next few weeks

[Underwater Ophelia]

I didn't eat the shell, no.

[Tam Li Hua]

I miss red meat. ;_;

[Seidre]

…of a cow that went through a life time of pain.

I get the point you’re making and I agree. Torturing animals in the name of gluttony is a terrible, wrong thing. However, I think it’s a stretch to say they go through a life time of pain. I live in a cow farming community. I don’t know about other places, but there are laws here that ensure they live comfortably. According to the guy I talked to, each herd is given as much territory as they would take up in the wild. I don’t know enough about cows to agree with or refute that statement, but I can at least vouch that they have a lot of land. Regular checkups from a vet make sure that they aren’t sick or injured. They have food, water, shade…Again, I’m not defending them. The slaughterhouse is a horrifying place. I’m just saying that “a life time of pain” is an inaccurate generalization.

Not like it can feel, love, had a family, as long as its killed swiftly its humane and peachy.

Do you have proof, from a biological standpoint, that deer feel love and mourn the death of their family? I ask only out of curiosity. As far as I’m aware, deer do not produce the correct chemicals for feeling love, nor have I heard of them mourning the loss of a relative. Again…That’s just curiosity. I’m not trying to make a point with that question.

Also, as far as pet chickens go…I would think that chickens kept as pets would be treated much better than that. If not, it would be considered animal abuse. Or SHOULD, anyway. I’m not sure what the laws are here…

But I have a friend with pet chickens. They have bunches of land, a very well taken care of shelter with plenty of nesting materials. They rescue unwanted chicks from people who would otherwise kill them. And rather than a rooster, they have a dog who keeps them safe. It’s an interesting arrangement. Because the chicks are raised around the dog, they don’t fear her. And she, in turn, adores them.

They make the yummiest (and prettiest) eggs…Which says a lot, because I normally won’t eat eggs. And because there’s no rooster, none of the eggs are fertilized. And when the chickens stop laying eggs? They’re welcome to live out the rest of their life in peace.

[Solumina]

Originally Posted by Saya

Because it simply isn't true. Animal protein has complete amino acids but so does a number of veggies like tofu and quinoa. As long as it gets complete amino acids, as you should unless you're eating the same thing every day, and getting absolutely no variety. The most common problem when starting a vegan diet is usually not getting enough calories or fats, but proteins should never be lacking, some even have to try and keep the protein down as too much of it (as a lot of people have) puts stress on the kidneys and leeches calcium from bones. Both plant and animal protein are digested the same way, just broken down in the stomach with hydrocloric acid. Perhaps the sudden switch to a high fiber diet deterred digestion in general but otherwise I cannot for the life of me understand why you would have specific problems all your life with plant protein.

Yes the diets that the nutritionist made up for me was too sudden of a switch and was lacking in calories or fat *eyeroll*

As much as I am open to information from those on the internet I'm going to believe my doctor, who told me that I was not properly digesting the protein, when I switched back I kept my diet mostly the same other than switching from tofu to chicken and veggie burgers back to the real thing, yet all of the problems went away.

[Mir]

You have those exceptional cases, and you are nothing, if not exceptional, but I think that for the general population, most would not have the reaction you encountered.

I didn't. At least I don't think I did.

[Solumina]

Most people don't and in no way am I saying that this isn't an unusual case but it also isn't the only problem that people have with going vegan, I'm just saying that it really sucks how some vegans look down on people who eat meat, and in some cases can be very hostile to those who eat meat.

[PortraitOfSanity]

Saya, I like you most of the time, but when it comes to vegetarianism, you're one of the most condescending and self-righteous people I've ever come into contact with.

[Mir]

Solumina: I agree. One of the reasons I don't call myself a vegeterian.

PoS: I find myself agreeing with you, much to my dismay.

[Mr E Nigma]

Agreed as well Solumina. As with everything it's a personal choice based on your moral views. If a vegan or vegetarian holds disgust with meat eaters... that's their choice.. to feel that way. But people shouldn't have to deal with them talking down to them for it.

Originally posted by Saya

I don't think there's a deeper reason, and thats why it is so fucked up. You support an industry like that thats bad for the animals, the environment, and probably your health, and no one cares, so long as they can stuff their fat faces with the rotting dead remains of a cow that went through a life time of pain. Something so big is trivialized down to "well I just like chicken better so I'm going to keep giving my money to industries that abuse billions of them

You said it broke your heart that I felt like it was comparable... now you're 100% completely contradicting yourself and agreeing with me... and basically repeating what I said... O_o I don't get it.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Solumina

Yes the diets that the nutritionist made up for me was too sudden of a switch and was lacking in calories or fat *eyeroll*

As much as I am open to information from those on the internet I'm going to believe my doctor, who told me that I was not properly digesting the protein, when I switched back I kept my diet mostly the same other than switching from tofu to chicken and veggie burgers back to the real thing, yet all of the problems went away.

I didn't say that was lacking, just whats most common. I am skeptical when someone says "My nutritionist told me..." because just about anyone can become a nutritionist. And even if you really had to compromise, why did you go back to meat and not just include dairy?

Originally Posted by PortraitOfSanity

Saya, I like you most of the time, but when it comes to vegetarianism, you're one of the most condescending and self-righteous people I've ever come into contact with.

I can't call myself self righteous because I don't deserve a gold star for doing the right thing. I don't think I"m better than anyone, but I do have to admit that I do think omnivores are extremely selfish.

[Solumina]

Originally Posted by Saya

I didn't say that was lacking, just whats most common. I am skeptical when someone says "My nutritionist told me..." because just about anyone can become a nutritionist. And even if you really had to compromise, why did you go back to meat and not just include dairy?

I'm lactose intolerant, dairy wasn't really an option, also I wanted a vegan diet for nutritional reasons not ethical ones, I see nothing wrong with people eating meat as long as those animals were treated humanely. Also I'm not really sure why you have the idea that anyone can be a nutritionist, that sure as hell isn't the case around here, I didn't just ask some dude who worked in Whole Foods, my nutritionist is certified and his college degree hangs in his office.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Solumina

II see nothing wrong with people eating meat as long as those animals were treated humanely.

Am I to understand you don't buy animal products from factory farms, nor mediocre free range farms? Otherwise, like most others that say this, this argument means nothing and you're just throwing it in to justify eating meat even though you still don't live up to that rationalization.

[Solumina]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

Am I to understand you don't buy animal products from factory farms, nor mediocre free range farms?

Yes, I buy either certified humane or I buy from local farms that I know take good care of their animals.

[honeythorn]

I usually get my chicken from a farm a few miles away, and my eggs. The chickens and bantams run free round the yard during the day ( it also serves as a small livery stables and has an attatched garden centre and plant nursery ) the chicken is a bit more expensive than from a supermarket, but I know how it's lived and I have no problem eating it.

When they don't have any available there I get it from the fortnightly farmers market. Again, these are small farms that take care of their animals. They make damn good jam too. That's also where I get the very occasional piece of venison.

I try to be for the most, part vegetarian, but I have no qualms about eating meat. It's a god-given (or evolution if that floats your boat) food source.