Alf

[Joker_in_the_Pack]

I am just wondering who here supports the Animal Liberation Front.

As for myself, I approve of their goals, even if I don't always agree with their methods.

Your thoughts?

[Godslayer Jillian]

One of my professors is Steven Best.
I tend to agree with most of the Animal Liberation Front.

[Jack again]

I've never really given it much thought, but seeing as I'm an omnivore, it would be kind of hypocritical to agree with their goals...

[Mealla]

I definitely support better treatment of animals in human care, improvement of conditions in facilities that hold animals for food production, and substituting methods other than animal testing when available. I also could never be vegan or vegetarian personally (though I have no problem with other people choosing such diets). I do support organic and free range products whenever possible, however.

My stance on the animal welfare issue stated, I have to say I admire ALF's dedication to their cause, but I don't approve of their methods by any means. I also think that it doesn't really further the cause. In the public eye, it turns environmentalists and animal welfare activists into terrorists and extremists, and it makes people less likely to take them seriously as a result.

[Godslayer Jillian]

If they 'wait' until people decide to be decent to animals, thousands of billions will still die tragic and unnecessary deaths for the sake of our own appetite, and I'm not talking just about hunger.
Wanting for ALF to wait it out is as valid as saying slavery should never have been abolished and we should have waited until we as a society were so beyond it that it would simply dissipate rather than be outlawed.

[JCC]

I totally support the ALF. A lot of the places that they raid are actually treating their animals illegally anyway.

[Saya]

I can't ever disagree with them saving animals but in the long run its a very temporary fix, the animals will just be replaced. I'd rather support an organization that promotes abolition and veganism rather one that secretly raids labs, better to change people's minds about animals altogether and get at the underlying cause of this, the idea that animals are ours to abuse.

[Saya]

Sorry for double post!

Originally Posted by Mealla

I definitely support better treatment of animals in human care, improvement of conditions in facilities that hold animals for food production, and substituting methods other than animal testing when available. I also could never be vegan or vegetarian personally (though I have no problem with other people choosing such diets). I do support organic and free range products whenever possible, however.

I think I"ve explained a million times on the board why welfarism is bullshit, but its true. Welfarism has been around for almost two hundred years and the conditions of animals that are meant to be "used", either for food, clothing or testing are worse than they've ever been. Other than outright bannings (like Russia's seal hunt) I never heard of a welfare legislation that made real change. The gestation crate ban came as most companies were abandoning the practice anyway for more economical methods, and still allows for the use of one for nine days before the sow gives birth, the foie gras ban in California gave the major producer there four years immunity, thereby dropping any animal cruelty charges agaisnt them, and gives them time to appeal. The few humane laws that are enforced have ridiculous sentences, for farm animals anyway because a lot of cruel practices are deemed necessary and normal. For there to be real help and change for animals we need to start respecting them, cease to support their suffering and abolish their property status.

My stance on the animal welfare issue stated, I have to say I admire ALF's dedication to their cause, but I don't approve of their methods by any means. I also think that it doesn't really further the cause. In the public eye, it turns environmentalists and animal welfare activists into terrorists and extremists, and it makes people less likely to take them seriously as a result.

They are not animal welfare activists, they are animal rights activists. They believe the animals shouldn't be in that position at all, they don't believe in "better treatment". Thanks to organizations like PeTA we already look like fools, and we'll try our best to repair the damage they have done, but ALF while famous does tend to keep a low profile, they're not out there in the public splashing blood on people or getting omnivorous women to strip for commercials that never get aired. I haven't heard of them hurting people (someone correct me if I'm wrong though, I really don't follow them) either so I'm not worried too much about them damaging the cause.

[Duncan]

Do you seriously belive that this raids will change anything? Can you think of one case, when violenlce effectively stopped violence? Good intentions against profit? Seems a little bit naive to me. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[JCC]

Originally Posted by Duncan

Do you seriously belive that this raids will change anything? Can you think of one case, when violenlce effectively stopped violence? Good intentions against profit? Seems a little bit naive to me. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The ALF aren't violent, they just smash things and free animals. The main ALF rule is not to go ahead with a raid if human or animal life is endangered. Also, ALF actions have shut down plenty of places.

[Duncan]

Originally Posted by JCC

The ALF aren't violent, they just smash things and free animals. The main ALF rule is not to go ahead with a raid if human or animal life is endangered. Also, ALF actions have shut down plenty of places.

Well, I have never heard of them before, but its interesting. "Smashing things" is not violent?

[Godslayer Jillian]

You think it's more violent to smash things than to take lives?
You disturb me.

[Duncan]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

You think it's more violent to smash things than to take lives?
You disturb me.

I did not question the agressivity of taking lives. Killing is vilolence. My dilemma is about what is better: being nonviolent or being violent for good purposes.

[Godslayer Jillian]

What's better: asking politely a bully to stop beating the shit out of you or punching him in the face and demand out of him to fuck off?

[Duncan]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

What's better: asking politely a bully to stop beating the shit out of you or punching him in the face and demand out of him to fuck off?

I am an agressive person by nature. But because I think violence is wrong, I try to avoid it. Sometimes I succeed, sometines I fail.

[Duncan]

Edit: What if he is a lot weaker than you? Not necessarily physically weaker. If the bully is a girl? Or a child being rude?

[Saya]

Yeah, because a girl equals a child. *facepalm*

So really, whats violent about breaking a lock, breaking a window and letting animals go free?

[Duncan]

Originally Posted by Saya

Yeah, because a girl equals a child. *facepalm*

I wrote child OR a girl. It is always easier to be violent if you know you are equal.

Originally Posted by Saya

So really, whats violent about breaking a lock, breaking a window and letting animals go free?

It is called vandalism. Nonviolent Vandalism?

[Saya]

So a girl isn't equal to a man?

Where does violence come into vandalism? Is graffiti an act of violence? Did the lock on the door have feelings?

[Godslayer Jillian]

You're right, they're such awful people!!
I understand I'm torturing innocent creatures and will keep doing so for profit, but why do they have to be vandals about it? That's way worse!!

[JCC]

Originally Posted by Duncan

It is called vandalism. Nonviolent Vandalism?

Understand the mindset of people in the ALF. Every place that they raid represents slaughter, torture and mistreatment. They're remarkably restrained individuals to just smash windows.

[Duncan]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

You're right, they're such awful people!!
I understand I'm torturing innocent creatures and will keep doing so for profit, but why do they have to be vandals about it? That's way worse!!

I did not say their ideas are wrong. I just disapprove of vigilante behaviour. You are not the ultimate justice. I am not the ultimate justice.Who the hell I am to punish or judge anyone? Therefore I will not attempt to punish 'bad guys'. It is an unfair world.
You should use the name of Raskolnikov =)

[honeythorn]

Originally Posted by Saya

So really, whats violent about breaking a lock, breaking a window and letting animals go free?

That may not be violent, but it is really slightly stupid considering many of those animals have been kept captive their entire lives, and have very limited knowledge of how to feed and look after themselves out in the open after being kept captive since birth. I'm all for freeing lab rats and puppies from vivisection labs, but do they find homes for these animals or just smash the cages and let them loose on the local ecology/streets/main roads ?

[Saya]

Originally Posted by honeythorn

That may not be violent, but it is really slightly stupid considering many of those animals have been kept captive their entire lives, and have very limited knowledge of how to feed and look after themselves out in the open after being kept captive since birth. I'm all for freeing lab rats and puppies from vivisection labs, but do they find homes for these animals or just smash the cages and let them loose on the local ecology/streets/main roads ?

One of their rules is: "Improvement in the quality of life of the to-be saved animals (there should be a good home or safe environment for them)." I know in one case here they released mink from a fur farm out into the wild, and established themselves nicely. Puppies and such that I've heard they find homes for them.

[JCC]

Originally Posted by honeythorn

That may not be violent, but it is really slightly stupid considering many of those animals have been kept captive their entire lives, and have very limited knowledge of how to feed and look after themselves out in the open after being kept captive since birth. I'm all for freeing lab rats and puppies from vivisection labs, but do they find homes for these animals or just smash the cages and let them loose on the local ecology/streets/main roads ?

They take them to shelters, and rehome them or reintegrate them into the wild if they can, otherwise they just stay in the shelters. I suppose that it varies from cell to cell, but that's the standard way of doing it.