How Left is too Left?

[Renatus]

I cannot but wonder that when world Leader Hugo Chavez considers Obama possbly more liberal than he is.


http://www.reuters.com/article/Obama...dChannel=10441

Venezuela Chavez says "Comrade" Obama more left-wing

CARACAS (Reuters) - Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez said on Tuesday that he and Cuban ally Fidel Castro risk being more conservative than U.S. President Barack Obama as Washington prepares to take control of General Motors Corp.

During one of Chavez's customary lectures on the "curse" of capitalism and the bonanzas of socialism, the Venezuelan leader made reference to GM's bankruptcy filing, which is expected to give the U.S. government a 60 percent stake in the 100-year-old former symbol of American might.

"Hey, Obama has just nationalized nothing more and nothing less than General Motors. Comrade Obama! Fidel, careful or we are going to end up to his right," Chavez joked on a live television broadcast.

During a decade in government, Chavez has nationalized most of Venezuela's key economic sectors, including multibillion dollar oil projects, often via joint ventures with the private sector that give the state a 60 percent controlling stake.

Obama has vowed to quickly sell off General Motors once the auto giant is back on its feet, but the government will initially control the company after a $30 billion injection of taxpayer funds.

Chavez, a vehement critic of the U.S. "empire," has toned down his rhetoric since Obama took office in January and the two men shook hands during a summit in Trinidad and Tobago in April.

(Reporting by Enrique Andres Pretel; Writing by Frank Jack Daniel, Editing by Jackie Frank)

[Joker_in_the_Pack]

There's such thing as too left?

[Renatus]

Originally Posted by Joker_in_the_Pack

There's such thing as too left?

There is a such thing as too much of anything, all good things in moderation. The extreme left is communism just as the extreme right is a dictatorship.

http://scienceblogs.com/clock/upload...%20System2.jpg

This is a scale for political views, I've seen one like this before that shows where different world leaders on it on gnet. Stalin I remember was on the extreme left where as Hitler was on the extreme right.

[Renatus]

I suppose a good movie example is one I'll take from star wars episodes 5-6, all you have to do is imagine the republic is the left wing, and the separatists are the left wing, but in the end because both sides didn't pay attention to their leadership they both were manipulated by Darth Sideous into becomming the Galactic Empire.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Renatus

Stalin I remember was on the extreme left

No he wasn't. You should know better by now.
If anything you should see just how Chavez isn't socialist because of the article you yourself linked us.

EDIT: FUCK MAN!! By the graph you also linked us you should know better than that!

[Despanan]

I like how this thread implies that Obama is worse than Castro and Chavez combined, based on little more than a snide comment from Chavez.

You fail Retanus.

[Zabijej]

Haha, I definitely think so.

I'm a libertarian and believe in simply not meddling.

PREFACE: This is just my personal opinion, I'm not looking for an argument.

The uber-left tires me. It's almost as if the movement is motivated by the philosophy of "Let's destroy the idea of right and wrong because if there's no right and wrong then nobody will disagree, if no one disagrees then no one will argue, if no one argues then no one will fight, if no one fights there will be no wars, and if there are no wars then the whole world will have peace," and have a vendetta against EVERYTHING traditional whether it makes sense or not.

[Godslayer Jillian]

There's having an opinion

and then there's not knowing what you're talking about.

[Beneath the Shadows]

Originally Posted by Zabijej

Haha, I definitely think so.

I'm a libertarian and believe in simply not meddling.

PREFACE: This is just my personal opinion, I'm not looking for an argument.

The uber-left tires me. It's almost as if the movement is motivated by the philosophy of "Let's destroy the idea of right and wrong because if there's no right and wrong then nobody will disagree, if no one disagrees then no one will argue, if no one argues then no one will fight, if no one fights there will be no wars, and if there are no wars then the whole world will have peace," and have a vendetta against EVERYTHING traditional whether it makes sense or not.

...the fuck?

[Renatus]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

There's having an opinion

and then there's not knowing what you're talking about.

..and then there is having a bad memory, I am sorry but like I've said before my memory isn't perfect. I never stated an opinion I stated a question, and things I've seen and remembered. But seeing as how I've gotten you rilled up.... hmm .....well I would give you a cookie, but I remember you don't like imaginary cookies so I'm not particularly sure, bah.... Well I simply don't know what to do other than offer my apologies on getting you rilled up.

[Beneath the Shadows]

I thought Jillian's last post was directed at Zabijej.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Renatus

. hmm .....well I would give you a cookie, but I remember you don't like imaginary cookies so I'm not particularly sure, bah.... Well I simply don't know what to do other than offer my apologies on getting you rilled up.

I'm not even referring to you and you dare to be idiotically condescending?
Great job.

[Renatus]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

I'm not even referring to you and you dare to be idiotically condescending?
Great job.

Bah, I had no tone intended, I was being sincere in my apology. I remembered you didn't like it when people went *gives cookies* out of consideration for you. I'm not a spiteful person, unless the person is truely terrible, and you're not Jillian. Is it suddenly a crime to apologize for somthing? because if it is then I am completely lost, how the heck are you supposed to get out of trouble if you get in trouble for apologizing? I hate vicious cycles.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Renatus

Is it suddenly a crime to apologize for somthing? because if it is then I am completely lost, how the heck are you supposed to get out of trouble if you get in trouble for apologizing? I hate vicious cycles.

Just because you say you're not being condescending doesn't take away the obvious condescension of that post.

[Renatus]

Keep in mind I'm an autistic, I might have gotten lessons in things like tones, body language,(which doesn't come into play here) and whatnot but I'm still prone to getting them completely wrong since it doesn't come naturally to me. Not to mention the internet tends to leave tones up to interpretation, which makes them even more of a pain in the ass. A good way of thinking of it is like with Spock or Data. Also I realize now I didn't notice who the post was intended for and apologize for that.

[Godslayer Jillian]

If it makes you feel better I'm pissed right now, for reasons entirely outside of Gnet.
If we go back to focusing on the substance of this thread, it still sucks, though.

[Joker_in_the_Pack]

Originally Posted by Zabijej

Haha, I definitely think so.

I'm a libertarian and believe in simply not meddling.
.

So you're a republican trying to get laid, gotcha.

[Zabijej]

Originally Posted by Joker_in_the_Pack

So you're a republican trying to get laid, gotcha.

I guess you could say "republican without the religion"

[Still Jack]

Communists...they're just so....classless.

[Onyx]

Originally Posted by Zabijej

I guess you could say "republican without the religion"

So your political belief system is that people should be allowed to do whatever they want short of not getting screwed by the wealthy? Libertarianism is great until you figure in that at some point the use of force was involved in everything we have now, the people who most need to be informed are often the people with the least access to that information and time to research it and no one starts off on an equal footing. Also, I love how only physical force is an evil to the libertarians when economical force can be just as brutal. Somehow the threat of a whip to make someone work is the lesser evil to the threat of death from starvation. Take Iraq for example. Bombs and guns have killed around a million and sanctions killed around a million before that. At least a bullet to the head is quick and, when compared to the slow death of starvation, pretty painless.

You're too left when you go 'round in a circle and run into the right.

[Duane]

Who else but Duckman?!

He's Duckman, Duckman
He's truly a king among men!
He's Duckman, Duckman
now forfeit all your chicks to him!

[Zabijej]

Originally Posted by Onyx

So your political belief system is that people should be allowed to do whatever they want short of not getting screwed by the wealthy? Libertarianism is great until you figure in that at some point the use of force was involved in everything we have now, the people who most need to be informed are often the people with the least access to that information and time to research it and no one starts off on an equal footing. Also, I love how only physical force is an evil to the libertarians when economical force can be just as brutal. Somehow the threat of a whip to make someone work is the lesser evil to the threat of death from starvation. Take Iraq for example. Bombs and guns have killed around a million and sanctions killed around a million before that. At least a bullet to the head is quick and, when compared to the slow death of starvation, pretty painless.

The world is going to be messed up anyway, so people might as well be given as much freedom is possible - both actual freedom and economic freedom.

Capitalism isn't the problem, too much lending and use of credit is. The value of a dollar (or whatever currency you choose) is dependent upon how many notes are in circulation. With every dollar of credit that we fabricate, the cost of our actual money goes down. Sometimes loans are necessary in such cases as going to school, buying a home or car, and starting a business - but at least in the US, the government has forced banks to give people loans with a low standard for credit score and income just so the country can say they have an increased number of homeowners.

The welfare state DOES have advantages, but it only comes with the economic bondage of taxes. In 2005 the personal income tax rate in Belgium was over 50% - compare to Japan, US, Mexico, and Korea around 30%. That means, if the US had the same tax rate as Belgium/Sweden/Germany, a $40k/year job which is a comfortable living wage for one person would be reduced down to $20k/year, which is BARELY paying rent and buying food - that's not even considering other taxes - that's why they have a $15 minimum wage, it just turns into $7.50 after taxes. Yes, those countries have nationalised healthcare but they also have a queue and the government can decide who gets treated, who doesn't, and when. Yes, they have free uni, but if I had the choice between paying $40k for school and paying a ridiculous tax rate my whole life, I'd rather just pay for school.

[Onyx]

Originally Posted by Zabijej

The world is going to be messed up anyway, so people might as well be given as much freedom is possible - both actual freedom and economic freedom.

Capitalism isn't the problem, too much lending and use of credit is. The value of a dollar (or whatever currency you choose) is dependent upon how many notes are in circulation. With every dollar of credit that we fabricate, the cost of our actual money goes down. Sometimes loans are necessary in such cases as going to school, buying a home or car, and starting a business - but at least in the US, the government has forced banks to give people loans with a low standard for credit score and income just so the country can say they have an increased number of homeowners.

The welfare state DOES have advantages, but it only comes with the economic bondage of taxes. In 2005 the personal income tax rate in Belgium was over 50% - compare to Japan, US, Mexico, and Korea around 30%. That means, if the US had the same tax rate as Belgium/Sweden/Germany, a $40k/year job which is a comfortable living wage for one person would be reduced down to $20k/year, which is BARELY paying rent and buying food - that's not even considering other taxes - that's why they have a $15 minimum wage, it just turns into $7.50 after taxes. Yes, those countries have nationalised healthcare but they also have a queue and the government can decide who gets treated, who doesn't, and when. Yes, they have free uni, but if I had the choice between paying $40k for school and paying a ridiculous tax rate my whole life, I'd rather just pay for school.

Tax rates are meaningless. You have to factor in what you get in exchange for the higher tax rates. The US may have a much lower tax rate but, for the most part, we don't get a whole hell of a lot out of it.

Take health care for example. I pay $300 a month just in insurance premiums. So I pay $3,600 in insurance premiums and make around $25k a year. That's like a 14% healthcare tax just to have insurance. And the thing about queues and the government deciding who gets treated is a BS right wing talking point. I'd much rather have a government agent deciding if I should get a treatment than some insurance claims adjuster trying to squeeze more profits out for the company. Profit is a horrible factor in our health care system.

Also, since you brought up paying for school VS tax rate and that country's minimum wage. The fact that they have primary through college paid for means people don't get stuck in minimum wage jobs, unlike or much lower taxed US system.

I know a guy in Poland. Not only is his University costs paid for, he gets a small salary while he's in school. What a stupid concept. Not only allowing people a good shot at an education, also allowing them to focus on their education rather than trying balance earning enough to be able to live on while going to school.

And, thanks to the very libertarian idea of off shoring jobs, a lot of the crap that people did to work their way through school isn't available any more. Your libertarian ideas of freedom would lead us all back to feudalism if allowed to run its course.

I've come to believe there's three types of libertarians. People who think they're libertarians but don't know what they're talking about, people who think they're going to be in a position one day to exploit wage slaves and those already in that position.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Libertarianism began as a Marxist term for the farthest left of all: anarchists.
So Zabijej probably doesn't know what he's talking about when he talks about the Left anyway.