WitchCraft

[korinna5555]

Originally Posted by Tiphareth

At last...someone else who has read that book!!
I love Neil Gaiman but even if that novel were not by him i would still believe it has a right to be nominated as one of the best pieces of modern literature.
I'd love to know which quote you're referring to.

..a good deal of the people on this board have read American Gods.
Saya already posted the excerpt I wanted to post.

>_>

[Tiphareth]

Originally Posted by creature6

why do you think people believe in those things?

Well as Voltaire said
'If God didn't exist it would be necessary for us to invent him'
The point being that we all need belief systems, it's part of the human condition. Even the atheist takes a spiritual stand by the mere fact of denying the existence of God

The thing is that it advances us not one jot to deride another's beliefs or practices. You may as well rage against someone just because their eyes are a different colour from yours. It's not the colour that matters but rather what function the eyes perform that makes them important.

[Tiphareth]

Originally Posted by korinna5555

..a good deal of the people on this board have read American Gods.
Saya already posted the excerpt I wanted to post.

>_>

Thankyou...i'll go and look.
Excuse the oversight on the book...put it down to my late arrival to the party.

[PortraitOfSanity]

Originally Posted by Tiphareth

Even the atheist takes a spiritual stand by the mere fact of denying the existence of God

We do? More like a logical stand.

[Tiphareth]

Originally Posted by PortraitOfSanity

We do? More like a logical stand.

Aaah...but you cannot apply logic where belief is concerned.
If logic were the sole arbiter of faith no-one would believe.
What you do as an atheist is make a statement of non-belief which is just as much a leap of faith as the believer takes.

What is that philosophical principle??...something like 'you cannot mix categories' or rather 'you cannot integrate of differentiate across discontinuities'
Logic and belief are different philosophical categories....there is no continuity between them

[FatGoth]

Logic is not the same as scientific proof. I am a Pagan and I find allot of logic in what I believe. I can not prove my faith in a lab, however it makes logical sense to me.

[Alan]

Stop fucking ****** logic. If you don't fucking know what the word logic means, don't fucking use it!

[creature6]

Logic, from the Greek λογική (logiké) is the art and science of reasoning. More specifically, it is defined by the Penguin Encyclopedia to be "The formal systematic study of the principles of valid inference and correct reasoning". As a discipline, logic dates back to Aristotle, who established its fundamental place in philosophy. It became part of the classical trivium, a fundamental part of a classical education, and is now an integral part of disciplines such as mathematics, computer science, and linguistics.

Logic concerns the structure of statements and arguments, in formal systems of inference and natural language. Topics include validity, fallacies and paradoxes, reasoning using provability and arguments involving causality and time. Logic is also commonly used today in argumentation theory.


If you want to learn more about logic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic.

[Ben Lahnger]

Originally Posted by Alan

Stop fucking ****** logic. If you don't fucking know what the word logic means, don't fucking use it!

1) I am amused that the word fucking was not censored but the word that came next was.

2) When it comes to religious or spiritual beliefs, logic by definition cannot be part of the reasoning by which you come by your beliefs. Defend your choice and your thought process any way you like, but do not bastardize the English language by using the word "logic" in this context - you only make yourself look a fool.

3) I am tired of people trying to convert other people to their belief systems, and not taking "no" for an answer. And that includes the atheists. I am one, but I have no problem with other people believing what they want to believe.

I just sit quietly at home and silently gloat over how wrong they are.

Carry on.

[creature6]

i love the Carry on movies by the way.

[creature6]

[Ben Lahnger]

As opposed to Cary Grant movies?

[creature6]

it's not really my cup of tea.

[Ben Lahnger]

And "The Bishop's Wife" brings it right back to religion. Way to tie it up with a bow!

[SweetJane]

Wicca is bullshit. As for other pagan(or otherwise) religions- also bullshit. I mean, I grew up Catholic and my best friend since kindergarten untill about 6th grade( I couldn't deal with her after that because she was so brainwashed by her parents) was raised Kimetic Orthodox. They taught me to read tarot cards, mirror/water scry, and so on. I got pretty good at all of it, but if you do that and don't realize that you knew the answer in the first place and it's all like an ink-blot test... you're fucking crazy or stupid. And they were all both of those.


My problem with any kind of faith is that it allows pseudo-science and things that sound nice to become the law of the land. Karma, happy water chrystals, jesus riding dinosaurs, and so on... it's so fucking destructive. If one more person tells me about how ice chrystals turn out perfect if you say nice things to the water, there will be serious carnage. Anyone who knows remotely anything about science knows that study was flawed like a son'bitch.

Meditation, mantra, and sigilization are empowering if you're into that kind of thing, but it's all in your head. Is it theraputic? Yes. Will it increase your confidence and change your perception of a situation, making a problem easier to deal with emotionally? Possibly. Is it world altering? Hell no. Not even a little.

[SweetJane]

Oh... I didn't realize we had already degenerated to funny pictures. Nevermind :]

[Saya]

Originally Posted by SweetJane

My problem with any kind of faith is that it allows pseudo-science and things that sound nice to become the law of the land. Karma, happy water chrystals, jesus riding dinosaurs, and so on... it's so fucking destructive. If one more person tells me about how ice chrystals turn out perfect if you say nice things to the water, there will be serious carnage. Anyone who knows remotely anything about science knows that study was flawed like a son'bitch.

Not to mention most people's idea of "karma" is a bastardization of the concept. Its a big pet peeve.

[FatGoth]

2) When it comes to religious or spiritual beliefs, logic by definition cannot be part of the reasoning by which you come by your beliefs. Defend your choice and your thought process any way you like, but do not bastardize the English language by using the word "logic" in this context - you only make yourself look a fool.

I disagree, logic can very much be a part of a religious or spiritual belief. When one can observe a result, again and again, then it is very much logic to believe it is so, even if one can not prove it with current mainstream science.

I got pretty good at all of it, but if you do that and don't realize that you knew the answer in the first place and it's all like an ink-blot test... you're fucking crazy or stupid. And they were all both of those.

Sweet Jane, what the hell do it matter. You think that when you use scrying or other divination methods then you already knew the answer, but the scrying let you put it all together or remember things that you might not have considered. After all the brain filters out allot of information. What do it matter if divination brings into focus things you already know that the brain have filtered out, or if it brings in messages from the Spirits or whatever pepole might think the cause of the information received is? What matters is that one have a tool whit which to get information one would not otherwise get.

It is the same as when pepole say healing is bullshit, for what if it is placebo. Well I do not care if it is placebo as long as it works.

My problem with any kind of faith is that it allows pseudo-science and things that sound nice to become the law of the land. Karma, happy water chrystals, jesus riding dinosaurs, and so on... it's so fucking destructive.

And how is it destructive? Have you seen how many pepole who find meaning with their lives, who get out of crisis, or even get the inspiration to turn their lives around because of religion. You may think that religion is not true, that the pepole who believe are wrong, but how the hell is it destructive?

[Ben Lahnger]

Let's throw the karma and the dogma into the magma!

[Ben Lahnger]

Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger

When it comes to religious or spiritual beliefs, logic by definition cannot be part of the reasoning by which you come by your beliefs. Defend your choice and your thought process any way you like, but do not bastardize the English language by using the word "logic" in this context - you only make yourself look a fool.

Originally Posted by FatGoth

I disagree, logic can very much be a part of a religious or spiritual belief. When one can observe a result, again and again, then it is very much logic to believe it is so, even if one can not prove it with current mainstream science.

Disagree all you like. The "logic" you state that you are relying on is based on observations that cannot be trusted. I can flip a penny 20 times and if it comes up heads every time, then can I say that logic dictates it must come up heads the next time? You are misusing the word logic. Cut it out.

[Ben Lahnger]

[Alan]

Originally Posted by FatGoth

And how is it destructive? Have you seen how many pepole who find meaning with their lives, who get out of crisis, or even get the inspiration to turn their lives around because of religion. You may think that religion is not true, that the pepole who believe are wrong, but how the hell is it destructive?

Karma created one of the most oppressive societies in which one in every five persons isn't even considered human.
Good enough?

[FatGoth]

Karma created one of the most oppressive societies in which one in every five persons isn't even considered human.
Good enough?

Do you think every Pagan or every religious person believe in Karma? I did not say that there could not be negative things based on religion. I said that religion in itself is not destructive. I could also mention the suppression and often murder of monks in Tibet as an example of a atheist philosophy gone wrong without saying that atheism itself is destructive. And before you protest, yes Mao's communist regime was atheist and they did attack the Tibet Buddhists because they where against religion.

[SweetJane]

Originally Posted by FatGoth

What do it matter if divination brings into focus things you already know that the brain have filtered out, or if it brings in messages from the Spirits or whatever pepole might think the cause of the information received is? What matters is that one have a tool whit which to get information one would not otherwise get.

Y-you mean like.. g-g-g-GHOSTS?

Originally Posted by FatGoth

It is the same as when pepole say healing is bullshit, for what if it is placebo. Well I do not care if it is placebo as long as it works.

Hmmm.. well, if everyone thought like this, it might account for all the dead people trying to communicate...

Originally Posted by FatGoth

And how is it destructive? Have you seen how many pepole who find meaning with their lives, who get out of crisis, or even get the inspiration to turn their lives around because of religion. You may think that religion is not true, that the pepole who believe are wrong, but how the hell is it destructive?

Seriously? How the hell is it destrutive?

How many kids will be beaten because their parents beleive that if their children go to Hell, so will they? How many children in Africa are being abused and murdered because evangelists christians have them convinced that their children have demons that have to be removed?



How many battered spouses refuse to or cannot seek help in heavily Muslim or Catholic coutries because of the stigma attatched to divorce? How many people will be murdered for their sexual orientation or for changin their gender? How many young women will be trained to be subserviant wives with no skills to undestand or communicate abuse, so that that they can churn out children like puppy mills?

How many people will get aids and other preventable diseases in developing countries because the missionaries who are supposed to be helping improve these people's lives teach abstinance only? For that matter, how many unwanted kids will be born this year in America because of abstiance only policies in some schools, and end up in destitute poverty? How many kids will die because their parents refuse to use methods other than "faith healing"?

How many young men will kill themselves in order to kill civilians in the name of Holey War?

But... I'm sure faith includes the infalibility of the comfortably prosperous devoting their lives to God justifying all of that shit.

[SweetJane]

Originally Posted by FatGoth

Do you think every Pagan or every religious person believe in Karma? I did not say that there could not be negative things based on religion. I said that religion in itself is not destructive. I could also mention the suppression and often murder of monks in Tibet as an example of a atheist philosophy gone wrong without saying that atheism itself is destructive. And before you protest, yes Mao's communist regime was atheist and they did attack the Tibet Buddhists because they where against religion.

But are religion and state not very similar things? They are both institutions of coersion. They both require you to abandon your own judgement and logic in order to benefit a very small elite, while telling you that everyone is equal in the eyes of god/under the law. But of course, we all know how pius and law-abiding the wealthy are, never having had a necessity to break either commandment or law.

Your argument is invalid; it's the logic that matters, not weather atheists are better people than theists. It's the ability to use logic to form opinions and beleifs that matters. Atheism is logical; the burdon of proof is on the THEIST. It's an inablity to think critically that leads people to violence in the name of gods or government.