Viewpoints on atheism and a supernatural being (and/or Beings, Aliens, and Santa)

[viscus]

Originally Posted by vindicatedxjin

First of all guys, I wrote this last year. And my thoughts on things have somewhat drifted from the prior ones that you see in this thread. I'm currently at a point where I don't really know where I stand. Sorry.

The post date says April of this year, but whatever.

I guess the question is then, how have your views changed?

[vindicatedxjin]

I've started to lean more towards postmodernism, I think that christians and secular humanists got it wrong....They've got the same shared belief that humans are the center of the universe, that we are moral beings, more meaningful than any other creature, and that whether through science or a god, or the power of reason, we are progressing toward some kind of utopia that is a ugly facade. Progress is a myth... I'm not saying technology isn't getting ahead it's "human" progress that isn't going anywhere. The world has a way of protecting itself and we have overpopulated so much to the point of becoming like parasites...we'll be destroyed somehow. Atheists think that they can reject God and everything that goes with it and still find some kind of meaning in they're lives and the pursuit of truth through science. I disagree. Truth is divine. Once you give God up you truly have to give up EVERYTHING associated with the idea of him, that involves freedom, justice, truth and love... this is the world without god. We are animals. I know it's an ugly picture, and I don't really like to think about it too often but it's what makes sense to me at this point in my life. Don't get my wrong, I haven't let go of hope completely but, I guess I'm just doing what I human does... I don't think I'll be 100% confident in any set belief...but I'm working on it.

[vindicatedxjin]

Oh and I think regardless of what I feel is reality...I'm happier just living my life and doin my thing to stay alive without worrying about anything. So that's what I do.

[Alan]

Jesus Christ, you didn't repeat the bullshit you said in your first post and yet you've still managed to punch every possible philosophically consistent statement in the dick!

I'd be glad to explain you every error and hope you actually grow from it as opposed to horizontally changing your stance while remaining WRONG, but you're just gonna say "well that's my opinion" as if that were a justification for saying "A = -A"

So I'll just leave it at this unless you yourself let me go further into the subject:

Originally Posted by vindicatedxjin

I've started to lean more towards postmodernism, I think that christians and secular humanists got it wrong....

[vindicatedxjin]

Hahah...go ahead...

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by vindicatedxjin

Atheists think that they can reject God and everything that goes with it and still find some kind of meaning in they're lives and the pursuit of truth through science. I disagree. Truth is divine. Once you give God up you truly have to give up EVERYTHING associated with the idea of him, that involves freedom, justice, truth and love... this is the world without god.

*facepalm*

No. No no no nononononononononon.

You're wrong, you're stupid, and no one loves you.

What do you mean when you say 'Truth' and what precisely about it necessitates that it originate from a divine being?

Hell, MORALITY isn't even derived from the divine (just often confused with it).

Look, the idea that morality derives from the divine is called the "divine command theory" as in: "Morality is obeying a command/law handed down from a divine authority, and immorality is disobeying it." ie: obeying the ten commandments is moral because they come from God. But that theory doesn't explain morality, it just re-enforces authority. For instance, let's say God (and you know it's really God) orders you to kill a newborn baby. Is this moral? Of course not. Morals derive from the natural social contract which we as a species have evolved to embrace. That's why virtually all religions and creeds have the same basic rules (ie: don't kill your neighbor, don't **** his kids, don't take his shit.)

Divine truth, justice, and morality doesn't create or give credence or meaning to these ideas, it perverts them to simple authoritarianism.

The good things that you say "come along with God" DON'T, and are even more profound when you accept the fact that god doesn't exist, because they exist on their own, they are right simply because they are right, as opposed to being right because some invisible, all-powerful, sky-douche will punish you if you violate them.

For god's sake vind TAKE SOME PHILOSOPHY CLASSES before you start ascribing to/ judging creeds you don'tunderstand.

[Alan]

Yay, something to do while I waste away at work.
I won't do the whole "dissecting your post quote by quote" because I've found it annoying lately, but I'll still address everything in that order. Just go back to your post if you get lost. I will also say bullshit a lot: feel free to change the word if you want a less rude-sounding rant.

First of all; what you said in your whole post is not postmodernism. The word postmodernism gets thrown so much as if it were a free pass to "My bullshit is truth because it's MY bullshit" that it stopped being a legitimate philosophical stance and is just kitsch. The IN philosophy to rrape is post-structuralism in any case.


Christians don't believe humans are the center of the universe. The whole idea of christianity is submission to god after all.
And yeah, secular humanists do believe that humans are "the center of the universe" per se, but what you don't understand is that that is simply a tautology.
By virtue of its nature, a human interprets the world in human terms. The closest thing to a motto you will find for secular humanism is that "humankind is the RULER of the universe."
Humanity is not the goal, or the subject of the universe. It is the parameter, it is the verb.
I suppose you see why that changes the complete context of what you were mentioning.

Equally, morality is a tautology because we ARE moral beings as it is morality which shapes itself to human nature. What is good for you is what IS good, period. Isn't that the whole premise of many of your rebuttals?
But I'm not making a jab for you; what you say would be correct were it not that you don't live in an empty universe. What is good for mankind is what IS moral, period, because morality does not come from above.
Whether we are more meaningful than other creatures depends on whether you don't think you are more important to yourself than your neighbor is important; it's just a matter of extension.

Your comment of some kind of utopia, I don't have much to say about that. I am a Marxist so I disagree, but that's not a matter of axioms, it's just my perspective and that of any Hegelian or Neo-Hegelian regarding history, the Zeitgeist (another concept which was totally rraped, i nthis case by a shitty movie)

Progress can't be a myth unless you change the definition of progress to a point so arbitrary that it stops being meaningful; this is evidenced by your amendment that progress does not signify technology. If you keep applying that method to everything which must be excepted by proof of genuine progress (the spread of the concepts of sovereignty, the access to knowledge, the democratization of information, the availability of commodities...) then what is left to say that Progress with capital P is a myth?

There is no such thing as overpopulation. Only the uneducated keep repeating this Malthusian fallacy. We might want to reduce our population by a couple billion, but there's no scientifically valid reasons to say this; they're merely aesthetic.
The disaster is consumption, and while higher population correlates with higher consumption, the overpopulation of the third world does not even begin to equal the consumption of the relatively sparsely populated first world.


The final part was too offensive for me to actually write like I did above. I'll make this more emotional.

TRUTH IS NOT DIVINE

You literally said that only with a god do the concepts of "freedom, justice, truth and love" exist.

BULL






SHIT



I would expand on that too, but seriously, I would hope you'd know better than that by know. Otherwise, you're just back at where you started a "year ago" AKA April 2010.

[vindicatedxjin]

Originally Posted by Despanan

For god's sake vind TAKE SOME PHILOSOPHY CLASSES before you start ascribing to/ judging creeds you don'tunderstand.

I have. I'm not saying that everything that we deem as good only comes from God. And that without God it doesn't exist. It's what we consider to be good as humanity that we've "associated" with God and religion. I was trying to portray a picture of the world raw, and bare, without any conception of "right" or "wrong" and how truly ugly it is if you really think about it... Sorry if that was confused. Don't get me wrong dude, I think we live in a beautiful place, I love earth. But I'm trying to explain myself in philosophical terms. And must I repeat. These are only my thoughts...

[Alan]

Originally Posted by Despanan

For instance, let's say God (and you know it's really God) orders you to kill a newborn baby. Is this moral? Of course not.

No, actually it would be, precisely because in the scenario you KNOW that it's really God.
The answer to that specific scenario is that it would be moral to kill a newborn baby. It's, again, just tautological.

But the ramifications of this is that you can easily prove only the most religious nutjob would ascribe to the idea that morality really stems from god.
It's the reason the Bible has little baby Isaac live. They try to teach a lesson on obedience to God, but they are conscious that this only works because god himself would not go against HUMAN morality.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by vindicatedxjin

I have. I'm not saying that everything that we deem as good only comes from God. And that without God it doesn't exist. It's what we consider to be good as humanity that we've "associated" with God and religion. I was trying to portray a picture of the world raw, and bare, without any conception of "right" or "wrong" and how truly ugly it is if you really think about it

And atheists don't do that, you idiot. But you know what does? Postmodernism. So please never use that word again.

How can you not see how fucking wrong you are?
That religion has tried to monopolize morality doesn't mean religion OWNS morality!

Imagine morality had been culturally linked to eating hot dogs. Do you think is this culture ran out of hot dogs it would descend into anarchy?

[vindicatedxjin]

Originally Posted by Alan

But the ramifications of this is that you can easily prove only the most religious nutjob would ascribe to the idea that morality really stems from god.
It's the reason the Bible has little baby Isaac live. They try to teach a lesson on obedience to God, but they are conscious that this only works because god himself would not go against HUMAN morality.

That's what I'm getting at to a point though... God goes hand in hand with humanist's in the sense that we've created a God that fit's with what us humans deem as right... God also gave humans hope of an afterlife, hope of salvation. Now it's science that's given hope...hope in progress.

[vindicatedxjin]

Originally Posted by Alan

And atheists don't do that, you idiot. But you know what does? Postmodernism. So please never use that word again.

How can you not see how fucking wrong you are?
That religion has tried to monopolize morality doesn't mean religion OWNS morality!

Imagine morality had been culturally linked to eating hot dogs. Do you think is this culture ran out of hot dogs it would descend into anarchy?

Alan, I'm not saying religion OWNS morality...and I don't understand your hot dog metaphor.

[Alan]

And that's why religion makes sociological and psychological sense. It wouldn't fucking exist otherwise.
You've somehow done EXACTLY the opposite of what makes sense.
Religion was a makeshift rationalization that was existentially fulfilling, and socially ordering, but with entirely ridiculous and contradictory premises.
Secularism tried to demystify the need of belonging and purpose.


You have managed to take away the ethics and epistemology and kept the absurd and contradictory premises. Congratulations.

[Alan]

Are you sure you have taken a philosophy class?
Did your professor ask you to pay in cash?

[viscus]

Originally Posted by vindicatedxjin

Once you give God up you truly have to give up EVERYTHING associated with the idea of him, that involves freedom, justice, truth and love... this is the world without god.

Despanan and Alan have already ripped this apart, so I won't rehash what they've said. But this notion that 'God = freedom' particularly bothers me. How do you get freedom from the idea of an all-powerful being with a master plan for the universe?

No, the rejection of God is freedom. Once you rid yourself of the conviction of an all-controlling magical being telling you how to live your life, then you are free.

[vindicatedxjin]

Alan, really? really? you're always so angry about anything posted that budges in difference to anything you believe. What I've posted are my current "THOUGHTS" I'm not stating that everything I say is complete truth, it's what, after much though has made the most sense to me. I actually hope I'm wrong. I wish that humanity strives and that we really, truly have a meaning on this earth. Why be angry with me about that?

[vindicatedxjin]

Originally Posted by viscus

Despanan and Alan have already ripped this apart, so I won't rehash what they've said. But this notion that 'God = freedom' particularly bothers me. How do you get freedom from the idea of an all-powerful being with a master plan for the universe?

God provides the freedom of immortality, which is what in the end would separate humans from the rest of nature.

No, the rejection of God is freedom. Once you rid yourself of the conviction of an all-controlling magical being telling you how to live your life, then you are free.

I agree with this completely.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by vindicatedxjin

Alan, really? really? you're always so angry about anything posted that budges in difference to anything you believe. What I've posted are my current "THOUGHTS" I'm not stating that everything I say is complete truth, it's what, after much though has made the most sense to me. I actually hope I'm wrong. I wish that humanity strives and that we really, truly have a meaning on this earth. Why be angry with me about that?

Because you keep saying things that are idiotic.
I'm not angry at you because you don't have my thoughts. Despanan and I fight (fought?) a lot and he's top three of the guys I respect the most in here.

What angers me is you say you took philosophy classes and keep repeating the bullshit they should have cleared out in the first day of class.

You KNOW it has nothing to do with me imposing your ideas, and you KNOW you're using rhetoric because you can't defend your evidently contradictory statements. Why would you keep it up when I'm actually trying to teach you something?

[viscus]

Originally Posted by vindicatedxjin

God provides the freedom of immortality, which is what in the end would separate humans from the rest of nature.

Assuming immortality is even possible, I fail to understand how it entails freedom either.

Originally Posted by vindicatedxjin

I agree with this completely.

Speaking out of both sides of your mouth, much?

[vindicatedxjin]

I can gladly say that I could be wrong. I have no pride or faith in my beliefs. How could I if I'm still searching?

[Alan]

You can't advance if you're fucking saying you don't need feet to walk.

[KontanKarite]

Vind... stop it. You don't know what you're talking about and rationalizing it is making people angry.

If you're implying that somehow what an individual finds as moral is in some way an essence of a god or that their morals ARE their god, you're removing the meaning of the word "god" and replacing it for a word that already works, "morals". With that, at best, you're simply romanticising morals and trying to put a divine face on things that have no need for it. Stop wishing there was something more and come to terms with the fact that at best, we don't know if there is anything beyond death and that our behaviour doesn't dictate how we may experience what is after death, if there's anything after it at all.

Read a book, take a hike, make some love, and just be happy that existance is at least THIS much.

[vindicatedxjin]

Dude that's what I'm getting at. Just existing is enough. And I am truly sorry if I've made anyone angry

[Alan]

Just existing is enough but somehow you judge us as parasites?

Why do you do this?

[vindicatedxjin]

We can't help being so...